Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[Zeb B]

From the upcoming official statement from RED we can tell where their alignment is going forward: To protect existing lines or to completely reinvent the industry. If you attempt to protect the status quo at any level - you compromise your revolutionary impact - leaving the door open for someone else to do it for you. IMHO, it's an all in commitment to a two tier product line:
1. Super high end
2. Entry level

Trying for a three tier product line would add an order of complexity that I'm not sure would be worth the effort, certainly not economically. I mean, anyone who wants to own a middle range RED camera already has one or can buy a used one real cheap.

 

[Eric Lange]

From the upcoming official statement from RED we can tell where their alignment is going forward: To protect existing lines or to completely reinvent the industry. If you attempt to protect the status quo at any level - you compromise your revolutionary impact - leaving the door open for someone else to do it for you. IMHO, it's an all in commitment to a two tier product line:
1. Super high end
2. Entry level

Trying for a three tier product line would add an order of complexity that I'm not sure would be worth the effort, certainly not economically. I mean, anyone who wants to own a middle range RED camera already has one or can buy a used one real cheap.

They key is that you offer ONLY ONE "Bridging product" , whereas there is a much more diverse set of product offerings at the lower end and at the higher end... So you sell the "Bridging product" only in one standard configuration and you sell the argument that having only one configuration for that line reduces over all costs as it only comes in one way and one flavor and one set of options (that's it)... At least that's how they tackle that in other industries and they may deliberately choke one or two capabilities so that a true professional "Production" level system is still more productive than the "Bridging product", but the fundamental quality is the same.


So they will "Bill it" as "Know you can afford the 5 axis machine or Camera or "quite pricey product' that you have always dreamed of owning" Kind of thing.

Increasingly consumers are more minded to buy new... As in such cases support may be better for first time buyers rather than the second hand market as sometime second hand market buyers need to be more experienced and knowledgeable IMO. Also there may come a time where the tech is moving so fast that to buy older equipment really hurts the bottom line/ROI as such equipment is usually slower and chews up much more valuable time... I.e. can in some instance become a false economy. Depends on what volume of work you plan on tackling and how you really want to spend your hours of one's life Time is precious (in the modern world) and an increasingly expensive "Commodity".

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

@Hrvoje
Arguing with your vague generalities will put me in the position of being anti-RED. Not my point. RED will do what's best for RED and we will all make our personal decisions about how to proceed.

You talk about generalities while putting all image acquisition tools in one bucket based on K's.

Still would like to know how specifically RED will feature limit in a way that protects their high-end while revolutionizing the industry as a whole.

Fork is not a spoon with limitations just because it has a handle.

No serious production will opt for something not designed for that specific workflow to save a fraction of the budget. It can have 96K. And if someone had that brilliant idea and brought it to set any serious AC, camera operator or a DoP would have a meltdown.

Not sure where you got the "revolutionizing the industry" parameter from.
The article quotes "8K for the general public".

If you are a true revolutionary then you don't give a fuq about incumbencies or existing hierarchies of dominance. You burn those to the ground since, in a revolution, it's a zero sum game

If you burn everything to the ground you end up on a pile of ashes.

If one doesn't care about anything and just gets a kick out of burning stuff down, one isn't a revolutionary but a child with matches or a person with serious issues.

 

[David Collard]

I suggest this press release is a deflection. The public doesn't want an 8K camera even at 1/6 of the price; they can't afford it.
This must really be about Foxconn who is about to be the manufacturer for the new Hydrogen.

This is very cool. Already we can anticipate the suspected adoption rate is going to be huge.

 

[dio Zafi]

Likelihood = zero.





Likelihood that Red would undercut its own high-end segment = zero.

exactly +1..

 

[Zeb B]

No serious production will opt for something not designed for that specific workflow

Define "serious production". Are you referring to Hollywood / Car Commercials only? Or the other 95% of the market Owner Operators serve

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It looks like China is winning.....

Well, RED is doing rather well in China, so who is winning?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Define "serious production".

The one with a budget, camera dept, art department, grip, light, make up, wardrobe, transportation, catering, security, insurance, permits and a shooting day schedule.

Generally films, series and TVCs depend on precise and reliable machinery of that package, and higher budget music videos as well.

 

[Zeb B]

The one with a budget, camera dept, art department, grip, light, make up, wardrobe, transportation, catering, security, insurance, permits and a shooting day schedule.

Generally films, series and TVCs depend on precise and reliable machinery of that package, and higher budget music videos as well.

. . . all of which can afford a Monstro or VV rental. It’s the middle of the product range I’m referring to, Raven thru Epic-W even Weapon, not the very top end of the market. I think the current middle product line is toast if there’s a 8K for $8K cam from RED . . . that is worthy of the RED brand logo. Buy a 6K Weapon starting at $50K? Why?

It’s all just unenlightened words until we get the official PR from RED. Then we will both probably look equally silly for yapping about something we both know exactly nothing about ;-)

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It’s all just unenlightened words until we get the official PR from RED. Then we will both probably look equally silly for yapping about something we both know exactly nothing about ;-)

Yo Zeb, the article says "8K for the general public".

 

[Zeb B]

Yo Zeb, the article says "8K for the general public".

So what. The Article is not the official RED word and could be complete bullshit. I do know that RED has been trying to make a mass market camera since before Epic. Remember Scarlet 1.0? That fixed lens 2/3 sensor amazing cam . . . that was derailed by the 5DII? Now RED finally has the engineering / production means with Foxconn to bring 8K$8K to market. My point is, if they succeed in doing that, it will obsolete the current middle market cameras and drop the premium that can be charged for 8K footage from oversupply. That’s all

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

So what. The Article is not the official RED word and could be complete bullshit. I do know that RED has been trying to make a mass market camera since before Epic. Remember Scarlet 1.0? That fixed lens 2/3 sensor amazing cam . . . that was derailed by the 5DII? Now RED finally has the engineering / production means with Foxconn to bring 8K$8K to market. My point is, if they succeed in doing that, it will obsolete the current middle market cameras and drop the premium that can be charged for 8K footage from oversupply. That’s all

Okay then...so on with the speculation.



5D and Scarlet S16 were not in the same category. That miss was due to its pricing point and fixed lens. Had Red went with a higher priced S16 C-mount or interchangeable lens mount camera it would have been a success.

 

[Zeb B]

Okay then...so...it's more logical to pursue a lengthy discussion on imagination and ignore the official statements from company representatives... ?

"imagination"? No . . . observation of RED's past history of desire to make a mass market camera and what economics would suggest might happen if they succeed. Do you really think the new 8K sensor in this future camera is going to be worse than what is in a current Weapon Dragon 6K? Or that pricing for 8K stock or rental rates are going to remain the same once 1M camera's flood the market?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

"imagination"? No . . . observation of RED's past history of desire to make a mass market camera and what economics would suggest might happen if they succeed. Do you really think the new 8K sensor in this future camera is going to be worse than what is in a current Weapon Dragon 6K? Or that pricing for 8K stock or rental rates are going to remain the same once 1M camera's flood the market?

I don't see the practical benefit of my thoughts about an unknown sensor.



Sensor specs do not automatically bring device functionality.

 

[Brian Merlen]

what i dont understand is: guys we have monstro, helium, epic w, scarlet w, raven already, right (and maybe you can argue some 6k and monochrome flavors too)? don't the big fish already worry enough about the small priced rigs? but life goes on, and my higher end units book and rental houses don't even stock low end machines?

maybe this 8k foxconn is for 4v 8k? and this is a hydrogen one leak or something? who knows whats going on? but red always tries to help us out with tiered upgrades, long windows, etc. im sure the pro offerings will only be better by the time prosumer offerings are out anyway?

red upgrades happen all the time, so often i am Epic W on a unit only and helium (but monstro paid) on another. its okay to scale down a bit just to try and keep spending down? the low res arris keep working too, life goes on man.

it was great when red was a "higher ended brand" but raven and even before that scarlet or scarlet w kind of made them cheaper to rig up anyway? its not harming the brand at all honestly to have such a diverse product line. things will be fine, at least i think so. hope so lol? i think it'll be fine and jim and jarred will take good care of us like they always have? i mean i lost my full time gig and im not even going to cancel my hydrogen one, just my teslas the other day had to go. im that big a believer, i chose H1 over model 3! so i think things will work out and ill enjoy this light weight camera for whatever it is, and when in need bring an alexa or monstro

 

[Zeb B]

I don't see the practical benefit of my thoughts about an unknown sensor.



Sensor specs do not automatically bring device functionality.

Client: "I want to this to be shot in 8K"
Me with new 8K$8K Cam: "No problem!"
Guy with Weapon 6K: "fuq"

I don't know much about it but perhaps you do: Does Netflix give a fuq about the nuance of DR, S/N, bit depth, noise texture and other practical benefits of a specific sensor when rejecting a project since it wasn't shot at 4K? Or do they just say "wasn't shot in 4K so can't accept it"

At some level the "K's" are all that matter to some clients. The cost of obtaining those K's are a variable which look to be heading dramatically down sooner than anyone thought 2 weeks ago.

On that note, trying to find your forecast RU Post about this current entry to the RED Roadmap since you speak with such authority about RED's future today. Let's hear the new camera's specs right now oh Shaman of It All ;-)

We're both have no idea what RED is going to do at any level

 

[Brian Merlen]

black magics and plenty of terrible cameras pack plenty of Ks now, sonys, canons, and panavisions do too? people still seem to like arri and red for certain niches, and the other brands in other niches? the marketplace is plentiful already and reds lower ended units can already be argued cannbolize high end offerings? it doesn't stop the high end from still needing cameras? honestly if people are worried about having prestigious branded gear im not sure why they didn't buy the arris over the reds to begin with? reds of course prestigious but the brand equity of a firm with ten times the duration of life and all the oscars and whatnot isn't bad im sure?

look red is an addiction. im only here because of my 2/3 fixed lens camera man? ive spent a lot more then i ever thought i would at this point lol? its okay though and i like having the high end ones and if red ever stops upgrades or i cant swing it financially some time so be it? but im still hoping for a red 65mm FTW monstro one day! im not even upgrading my arris to XR module, its not even worth the slight increase in specs. so not every upgrade is worth it generally i think. but if i can get a 65 and leica glass to cover it with thalias, ill take that shyt to the fuqin bank bro lol!

but who knows 4v might be even cooler? im open to 4v changing my views or needs going forward to? its a great time to be a red shooter, and ive had many red iterations over the years and debated the merits of upgrading vs owning, then eventually selling and rebuying in generations later. you can always try different business models. ive just upgraded every time so far and epic W was a lucky break. reds taken care of me and for once they are killing it vs my arris financially with these new sensors atm. so im happy with my 8k luck so far and im sure things will be great at red no matter what products come out?


for all we know reds 4v can kill 2d off significantly? so all our current units then could suck vs the new medium that he succeeds in making mainstream possibly? but so what if it happens? life goes on and we can upgrade? my arris wont upgrade as well, but i knew that going into it and got them anyway due to market trends. but its cool being cutting edge with red and i look forward to H1 a lot honestly. my arris are painful to even try and lug around lol

 

[Zeb B]

Today I read on RU "it's not about the K's" lol

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Client: "I want to this to be shot in 8K"
Me with new 8K$8K Cam: "No problem!"
Guy with Weapon 6K: "fuq"

Client/Producer/DoP: I want this to be shot on $60K 3K Alexa Mini Package and $180K Cooke S5 set
You with an affordable compact 8K camera: "fuq"

I don't know much about it but perhaps you do: Does Netflix give a fuq about the nuance of DR, S/N, bit depth, noise texture and other practical benefits of a specific sensor when rejecting a project since it wasn't shot at 4K? Or do they just say "wasn't shot in 4K so can't accept it"

Caring level what Netflix desires regarding cameras: Zero

At some level the "K's" are all that matter to some clients.

Luckily those are not a majority and I typically avoid that type of clients because ignorance manifested on that manifests in other production parameters and business philosophy.

On that note, trying to find your forecast RU Post about this current entry to the RED Roadmap since you speak with such authority about RED's future today. Let's hear the new camera's specs right now oh Shaman of It All ;-)

I didn't make any forecasts Zeb, only logical conclusions of likelihood.

 

[M Most]

Caring level what Netflix desires regarding cameras: Zero

Luckily those are not a majority and I typically avoid that type of clients because ignorance manifested on that manifests in other production parameters and business philosophy.

I'm going to take a wild guess here that you have likely never talked to any of the tech people at Netflix, or the production or management people for that matter. Because if you had, you wouldn't be making such statements.

Making assumptions that people who run entities that have very significant skin in the game - to the tune of billions of dollars committed - don't care about what they are creating or how they are creating it is at best naive, and at worst just plain wrong. Netflix in particular has done research and collected data beyond what anyone here suspects and come up with conclusions based on a deeper understanding of the business, at least from their perspective, than most people here know. You may not like some of what they have come up with. But don't ever confuse that with ignorance, lack of interest, lack of business acumen, or lack of understanding of current and future trends. Because you would be doing so at your own peril.