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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

Björn Benckert said:
I think you are missing quite a few points.

1: 8k downsampled to 2k and then compressed to proress will most likley be the cleanest 2k you ever seen. Noise and debayer issues are then devided by 4. The in camera downsampler is a huge thing to take into account. red does not speak to much of it as they been marketing r3d quite heavily but at this resolution new things comes in play. If they, as the rumor say open up for uhd proress then that will for sure provide totally different levels for noise and "night vision" etc.

2. I think very few are planing to playback their 8k material but even if the faster mini mags will bring a per pixel bandwidth that is higher than dragon 6k with 1.8 ssd's. I used 1.8 ssd's on dragon and i know for sure that serup can render pretty high quility stuff...

3. FF lenses will cover 8k, and not only cover but also render a much sharper image as more of the lens is used.
in other words any given ff canon lens used in 8k and mastered ag 4k will be sharper per pixel than the same lens when only 6k is used. Still lenses and quite a few other lenses do have an image circle that covers.
This 8k sensor is over 5mm wider than the 5d sensor but more wide screen so it still fits FF glass.

4. sensor format is not so much about resolution, even my mom can see the difference of super35 and 16mm even when showed in standard def....

5.im pretty sureThis 8k 41mm wide dragon sensor is not going to come across as mushy, on the conterary Im pretty positive that pretty much everyone that is not blind will be very capable to see where that extra money went even when watching low res files on vimeo.
Click to expand...

Great post. Very anxious to see 8K VV footage...
 
It's my feeling that a lot of folks would prefer a sensor with larger pixels that soak up more light (like the Sony A7s's sensor) rather than have 8K resolution. Seeing cameras like the A7s and the Canons with usable images at over 10,000 ISO it seems like that would be more useful to more folks than a Vista Vision sensor. We have invested $100K in Ultra Prime lenses that won't cover Vista Vision.

I would also love to see Red come out with an OLPF that fits between the LLO and the STH that hits the sweet spot between decent low light performance and highlight roll-off to minimize switching.

I guess I'm just saying I hope Red is putting development into not just making a bigger sensor but improving the sensitivity and the color rendition on the new 8K sensor as well, so that even if you don't use the whole sensor, you still get a better image if you upgrade. Then it will be worth upgrading.
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
It will only be as good as the recording format.

8k/35.5mp is 1.8x more pixels than 6k/19.5mp

Looking at current redcode efficiency on Dragon, 6k is a similar 1.8x more pixels than 3.5k:

3.5k/24fps/4:1 is 58 MB/sec vs 6k/24fps/4:1 is 177 MB/sec

based on that 3x increase in data rate, 8k/24fps/4:1 would require around 537MB/sec

or 300% "processing power increase" , a long way from the proposed 50%

50% increase with Weapon would be maybe 8k/24fps at 9:1 compression, not very good quality

Shoot some 6k at 9:1 now and see for yourself, its pretty mushy, specially in low light.

and 8k/60, will have to be super compressed

Add on the fact you probably have to crop some for lens vignetting on the large sensor, not sure 8k highly compressed vs 6k minimal compressed is going to be visually worthwhile.

If Weapon is suppose to be the body that will then house a future next gen sensor, beyond the 8k dragon based one, only a 50% increase does not add up.
Click to expand...

Everything you just said is wrong.

Picture vs. a Thousand words: Look at the top row of the screen.

1429192906.jpg
 
David Kudell said:
It's my feeling that a lot of folks would prefer a sensor with larger pixels that soak up more light (like the Sony A7s's sensor) rather than have 8K resolution. Seeing cameras like the A7s and the Canons with usable images at over 10,000 ISO it seems like that would be more useful to more folks than a Vista Vision sensor. We have invested $100K in Ultra Prime lenses that won't cover Vista Vision.

I would also love to see Red come out with an OLPF that fits between the LLO and the STH that hits the sweet spot between decent low light performance and highlight roll-off to minimize switching.

I guess I'm just saying I hope Red is putting development into not just making a bigger sensor but improving the sensitivity and the color rendition on the new 8K sensor as well, so that even if you don't use the whole sensor, you still get a better image if you upgrade. Then it will be worth upgrading.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more. For me, I want further development into the aesthetic of the image. Surpass your primary competitor, without argue, in that regard, in all aspects. An ever larger sensor is reaching a point of rapidly diminishing return.
 
Jarred Land said:
Everything you just said is wrong.
Click to expand...

Everything?

Good to know the specs in your first post are already surpassed.

Thanks for the photo, how about an .r3d?

Jarred Land said:
-Faster Data throughput. Up to 50% higher data rates to card. Existing RED MINI-MAG 512GB cards are already ready for transfer speed increase
Click to expand...

8192 x 4320 x (16/8) = 70.8MB/frame /5x compression = 14.2MB/frame *24fps = 340.8MB/sec

I was extrapolating because redcode data rates are a little odd, like on Dragon:

6144 x 3160 x (16bits/8) = 38.8MB/frame /4x compression = 9.7MB/frame *24fps = 233MB/sec

But, its not - its only 177 MB/sec in the file.

Never really thought about it before, but what works out about right is if its only 12bit image data, not 16bit:

6144 x 3160 x (12/8) = 29.1 MB/frame /4x compression = 7.3MB/frame *24 = 175MB/sec

So 8k @ 12 bits with 5:1 compression @ 24fps would only be: 254.8MB/sec

Which is under the 50% "increased data" threshold of 265.5 MB/sec

8k @ 60fps would need to be 12:1 or 13:1 compression, not horrible.

and 6k FF @ 75fps would be 8:1 or 9:1
 
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Christopher*Seguine said:
8k 5:1 is about 425MB/sec, probably about the limit of the msata ssd in the minimag, and way more than 50% over the current 177MB/sec limit on the Dragon, could be cool.
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8K | single chip bayer | 16-bit | 24 fps | 5:1 compression | is about 324 MB/s if my calculations are correct...

single frame is 13.50 MB - that Jarred will hopefully share... ;-)

30 fps - with the above setup - is 405 MB/s.... so towards the upper end of the card's limit...
 
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6K (6144x3160) | 16-bit | 24fps | single chip bayer | 4:1

Image data rate (uncompressed): 37.03 MiB per frame | 888.75 MiB per sec
Image data rate (4:1 compression): 9.26 MiB per frame | 222.19 MiB per sec


6K (6144x3160) | 12-bit | 24fps | single chip bayer | 4:1

Image data rate (uncompressed): 27.77 MiB per frame | 666.56 MiB per sec
Image data rate (4:1 compression): 6.94 MiB per frame | 166.64 MiB per sec

MiB = 1024^2


I gotta look real quick now at the size of a single Dragon frame... I though A/D on Dragon was 16-bit and files were 16-bit...
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
The specs in the manual state "16-bit per pixel RAW data frame", but I guess it could be 16bit mapped to 12bit log data or they just round to 12bits and the manual is wrong.

How am I doing now Jarred, qualified for a special guest appearance on Mike Tyson Mysteries?
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Mike Tyson mysteries indeed !!! haha

I get ~13.8-bits for a .r3d single frame Dragon 6K 6144x3072 with 5:1 compression...

I guess Graeme is doing some magic... ;-)
 
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Mike Nagel said:
6K (6144x3160) | 12-bit | 24fps | single chip bayer | 4:1Image data rate (4:1 compression): 6.94 MiB per frame | 166.64 MiB per sec
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For those thrown off by mebibytes vs megabytes:
166.64 mebibytes /sec * 1.04858 = 174.73 MegaBytes/sec plus some overhead/metadata = 177 MB/sec

http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time

Looks like redcode is only 12bit data, not 16bit. It would make sense to save data rate by converting 16bit linear from the sensor to 12bit log.
 
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Christopher*Seguine said:
For those thrown off by mebibytes vs megabytes:
166.64 mebibytes /sec * 1.04858 = 174.73 MegaBytes/sec plus some overhead/metadata = 177 MB/sec

http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time

Looks like redcode is only 12bit data, not 16bit. It would make sense to save data rate by converting 16bit linear from the sensor to 12bit log.
Click to expand...

MiB is what Windows states as MB, so if you look at the numbers that I posted you can compare them directly with physical file size on a hard drive - no need to further convert...

the numbers from the RED tool don't add up, they're not correct and do not match file sizes I have here on hard drives... they also state "average data rate", which sounds like it is not a constant data rate... (?)

I know for a fact that R1/R1MX were 12-bit files... Epic was supposed to be 14 and Dragon 16... but I guess they are ~13.8 which is roughly 14... in any case, they look like 100-bit ;-))) hehe

in regards to 8K, I thought I read somewhere that the codec does drop to 12-bit (at one point) in order to allow a certain fps and compression...

can't wait to see footage from that...
 
I really needed the Red One when I purchased it and it helped improving everything in my company from the quality of our footage to reaching new clients.
Bit more than a year after, I put $55k on the table to buy my Epic-M.
A month after I received it I was shooting the first ever professional surf contest in New York and that was of course the first professional surf event shot on Epic at that time.
A couple of months later I was in Mumbai with Tony Hawk shooting the first ever Vert Demo in India and I'm pretty sure that was the first ever vert demo shot on Epic.
Dragon showed up and i didn't think twice...
Epic Dragon is the best camera I've ever had... Probably the best camera on the market right now.
I'm blown away by the quality of 6K capture and its output in 4K.
Weapon upgrade showed up and I felt a bit confused about the pricing and the specs.
To be honest, I don't really need Prores now and I won't probably need 8K at the end of the year...
After reading more and more posts and thinking about the long path I did since 2010 I realized it was actually a no brainer and I had to upgrade to 8K CF Weapon.
Now I pulled the trigger, I'm already excited about how I will share these Prores files with some of my collaborators and also of shooting incredible scenery in 8K then watch it on our 4K panel.
The weight will be lighter thanks to carbon, using great apes such as Fool Control will be even easier, black shading will become a piece of cake, etc...
Thanks Jim, Jarred, Brent and all the Red team, once again NAB announcements didn't disappoint and will probably mark another step-up in my career.

Guys, I'm not trying to claim or justify anything here but these past 48 or 72 hours were a lot of thinking and trying to rationalize so I just needed to share my impression here.
 
Lots of calculating, thinking and looking for weird ideas here. Those insane deals and rebates did put some pressure on me. :) But it is how it is, current Weapon-offerings are out of reach for me and that 8k-sensor will stay a dream - even more after the NAB-offering is gone. Time to accept that and take a deep breath.

Not sad, not angry, just not made for me - at least not yet.

I'm looking forward to see what you guys are going to shoot with this insanely beautiful sensor.

And i'm totally excited to get my Scarlet upgraded to Dragon soon. .)
 
I think one thing I'm enjoying is the proposed 8K workflows from some of the other companies that are going that route.

Cameras that have modular recorders, out board recorders, crazy ways of encoding data, etc.....

It's going to be a wonderful word of just pulling out that MINI-MAG and using the GPU Acceleration and/or RED Rocket-X to crank out 8K. Right now RED is actually proposing the simplest 8K workflow at the show. A proposal I accept!
 
Phil Holland said:
I think one thing I'm enjoying is the proposed 8K workflows from some of the other companies that are going that route.

Cameras that have modular recorders, out board recorders, crazy ways of encoding data, etc.....

It's going to be a wonderful word of just pulling out that MINI-MAG and using the GPU Acceleration and/or RED Rocket-X to crank out 8K. Right now RED is actually proposing the simplest 8K workflow at the show. A proposal I accept!
Click to expand...

+1 to this

Is RED Rocket X even using it's full processing power yet?

thx.
 
All that arguing about resolution again, a lot of people need to take a chill pill and get glasses. There are a lot of people that can pick 8k but it guess less with age related decline in eye sight, so it is a completely valid choice. The figures are 2400 monochrome pixels per inch, and 1200 color, except that those are halved on bright images from displays. We are looking yo64k+ ffor holographic filming in future.
 
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