8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

[Hugues Dagallier]

Love VV, 8K and beyond but obviously an 8K bayer capture won't give u 8K resolution... u have 8K pixel.

Better then 7.x K but when u factor in available lenses and then final perceived difference of an 8K bayer capture with a an okay lens (not many options) or a 7.x K capture with a very good lens (FF, more options) that is then slightly upscaled, u may not see any difference at all, or lose out.

Also, a FF cine glass set with same aperture across all focal lengths (that is also visually matched between lenses) may just be way less headache in post and more importantly on-set workflow...

I agree on the later. I hope that manufacturers will make fast professional cine glass.

Nevertheless, I think that the best FF lens at this moment are actually the ones who are able to cover a larger image circle. (I think Zeiss Otus are one of them, and probably SIGMA Art series lens.) So you can capture 8.1K with a very good lens too

 

[Zeb B]

I agree on the later. I hope that manufacturers will make fast professional cine glass.

Nevertheless, I think that the best FF lens at this moment are actually the ones who are able to cover a larger image circle. (I think Zeiss Otus are one of them, and probably SIGMA Art series lens.) So you can capture 8.1K with a very good lens too

Is the correct thread for this discussion? Perhaps we stick to Q&A's that are directly related to "8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade". You know . . . the OP.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

CF one does 300 fps prores 6K ? Dont need raw at 6K highspeed

 

[Phil Holland]

CF one does 300 fps prores 6K ? Dont need raw at 6K highspeed

What?

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Love the Weapon. It's the camera I wish Epic was tree years ago: better modular design (history has shown several times that the modular design of the Epic was ill-conceived from the get-go), ProRes support and 3rd party module integration. In short - it's the Epic done right. I just upgraded to Dragon in December so unfortunately I'm currently not going to be able to afford the upgrade with such short notice, which means by the time I may be able to afford it there may no longer be an upgrade option for me. And since we're no longer talking cameras that are priced within my reach (17.500 baby!) I'm no longer a target customer for RED. I'm at peace with that because I love what my Dragon is already doing in it's current form. And I'm at peace with the fact that the Dragon may be my last RED camera for now.

But from an administration & production stand-point it makes absolutely no sense to me to have two different lines of Weapon Dragons if you already know the Magnesium needs to be upgraded again in about a year or so to support the bigger sensor. I would think that it would be easier (cleaner) to just have one single upgrade path from a production standpoint, no?

 

[Zeb B]

CF one does 300 fps prores 6K ? Dont need raw at 6K highspeed

It would be sick to have a camera that is as "Modular" Internally as it is Externally. Being able to choose, on the fly, a lighter weight codec, sacrificing all that RAW provides, to get a much higher FPS would make Weapon truly Epic. From 24 to 240fps+ at 4K+ clean, in that form factor, would be a category killer. Being able to make the creative choice of DR vs. FPS as a DP would be cool.

Edit: Also, PhaseOne does a pixel doubling scheme (Sensor Plus) whereby they cut the MP count by 75% then 4X the ISO sensitivity through a push of a button. Perhaps look into this for the 8K Weapon?? ISO 800 becomes 6400+ shooting 2K+:
http://www.phaseone.com/Camera-Systems/P-Series.aspx

 

[Jarred Land]

But from an administration & production stand-point it makes absolutely no sense to me to have two different lines of Weapon Dragons if you already know the Magnesium needs to be upgraded again in about a year or so to support the bigger sensor. I would think that it would be easier (cleaner) to just have one single upgrade path from a production standpoint, no?

There are some people out there that are fine with the 6K S35 sensor and have no immediate need or budget to go to 8K. Just like there are people who purchase the Scarlet because they dont have the immediate need ( or budget ) for the increased frame-rates or the increased resolution that Epic offers.

Regardless.. there will be an upgrade path for MG to go to the 8K sensor when/if people are ready to do so. the 8K sensor physically fits inside the MG body... it just is going to be a more expensive upgrade than the Carbon Weapon owners will pay as it needs the increased processing boards as well.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Regardless.. there will be an upgrade path for MG to go to the 8K sensor when/if people are ready to do so. the 8K sensor physically fits inside the MG body... it just is going to be a more expensive upgrade than the Carbon Weapon owners will pay as it needs the increased processing boards as well.

I get that, but why spend the time designing lesser capable boards, train personnel and have two different upgrade lines. Wouldn't it be cheaper for everyone to just do one? I'm asking well aware I'm talking out of my ass here. In the end (and I'll be completely honest) I'm mostly just frustrated by the fact that I'm not going to be able to afford upgrading to the camera I have been wanting since I got my Epic ;-)

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

What?

Im saying if Carbon weapon could do 6K Prores only at 240-300FPS or 2-4K 300FPS it would be epic isnt it?

 

[Anton Shavlik]

If the CF 8k sensor does 75fps wide screen I'd anticipate it can do significantly more at 6k since 6k is only 2/3 the pixels and 3/4 the height.

 

[Phil Holland]

If the CF 8k sensor does 75fps wide screen I'd anticipate it can do significantly more at 6k since 6k is only 2/3 the pixels and 3/4 the height.

You would likely be mistaken then. The Dragon sensor is bound to maximum frame rates by it's vertical resolution due to read out and a few other things. The Weapon CF 8K Dragon at 8K WS would land around 3457 pixels tall, which is not much higher than the maximum height of 6K Dragon sensors (3160). What I am expecting is better REDCODE RAW compression ratios at these higher resolutions, but it's too soon too tell.

Weapon CF 8K Dragon shoots 8K FF at up to 60fps and 8K WS at up to 75fps.

Down the line if RED sticks to the general pixel pitch of Dragon, and I think they should for the most part, I hope there can be some new sensor and camera tech in 2-3 years that would allow for full 8K shooting at up the 120fps, but that would require some hefty work, hardware, and technology. Then you'd see a real increase in frame rates at lower resolutions.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Once again, who will watch something mastered in 8K and when will viewing 8K be a reality for the majority of people in the world? 4K hasn't even taken off yet. It might be ten years before 4K is where 1080p is today. Technology is exponential, people are not. The demand from the general public to have 8K will be so low the coming years that even though there are screens and we provide 8K masters there will be little interest. Looking at the gaming industry and how it struggles with higher resolutions, there won't be anything even close to 4K before maybe the next generation gaming consoles.
Everything is connected, you can't just look at a small portion of the industry and say, "look 8K is coming and 4K is going to go away fast". The gaming industry is just as much part of creating demand for a certain resolution and they aren't even at true 1080p yet. Pushing rendering quality will demand lower resolution, so going 4K is going to demand jumping back a few years to be able to render graphics at 30p.

So 4K is going to stay for a while. We might barely see it adopted by the general public by 2020 and by 2025 it might be in everyones home. But 8K is going to be a hard sell in the world. Not for us, but for who we create content for. Regular people won't see a difference between 4K and 8K, I guarantee you.

On top of that, who will have the workflow ready for 8K? The demand on post production hardware will be enormous. I have a struggle just getting VFX artists to work in 4K instead or 1080p or 2K. Who will have the ability to really work with 8K for 8K delivery? I know big studios with close to unlimited technical budget will, but these are just a small part of the industry. Not everyone will work and present their work at IMAX theaters. There will be a handful of people doing it, Nolan included.

So having 8K now will future proof the camera for a long long time. The capabilities of the Dragon sensor has reached to a level where the high bar of 35mm film doesn't apply anymore. Yes, you could argue that there is too much noise and so on. But if you are going to shoot 8K you will need the budget for it's post production and a budget for shooting in that resolution. Who has that level of budget?? Big studios and filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, James Cameron, Peter Jackson and so on. And those productions will have the necessary needs to make something without a lot of noise and stuff like that.

Your camera will not make you one of those names. If you make something and master it in 4K and if it has a really good story that make people love your movie you might be offered to work at a higher budget. But when you reach the level of those filmmakers, you don't need to own a camera because the production already have a budget for it.

I love the VistaVision format and I would have loved to see a 6K sensor in VistaVision format, but what am I going to use it for? If I can't make something good with my 6K Dragon sensor as it is now, why am I even putting all this money into a camera like that? Why spend so much to be able to own one?

No, I'm going to stop pushing my acquisition format and put money into my post production hardware. If I get that to a level where I can work in real time with 6K, then it will be a much more creative process than a technical one. Just look at Fincher when he used the Viper. It's such an inferior camera to what was around when he worked on Benjamin Button, but he knew the camera and had developed processes for noise reduction and grading that he knew how to get right. If I can master 6K Dragon in post production then it will look better then most others working at 8K Vista because mastering a certain format takes time, knowledge and hardware not just "having it".

The 8K VistaVision will be around for a LONG time.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

If the CF 8k sensor does 75fps wide screen I'd anticipate it can do significantly more at 6k since 6k is only 2/3 the pixels and 3/4 the height.

I would bet 6K tops out at 100 fps.

Why? Read Phil's post above.

 

[shashbugu]

Once again, who will watch something mastered in 8K and when will viewing 8K be a reality for the majority of people in the world? 4K hasn't even taken off yet. It might be ten years before 4K is where 1080p is today. Technology is exponential, people are not. The demand from the general public to have 8K will be so low the coming years that even though there are screens and we provide 8K masters there will be little interest. Looking at the gaming industry and how it struggles with higher resolutions, there won't be anything even close to 4K before maybe the next generation gaming consoles.
Everything is connected, you can't just look at a small portion of the industry and say, "look 8K is coming and 4K is going to go away fast". The gaming industry is just as much part of creating demand for a certain resolution and they aren't even at true 1080p yet. Pushing rendering quality will demand lower resolution, so going 4K is going to demand jumping back a few years to be able to render graphics at 30p.

So 4K is going to stay for a while. We might barely see it adopted by the general public by 2020 and by 2025 it might be in everyones home. But 8K is going to be a hard sell in the world. Not for us, but for who we create content for. Regular people won't see a difference between 4K and 8K, I guarantee you.

On top of that, who will have the workflow ready for 8K? The demand on post production hardware will be enormous. I have a struggle just getting VFX artists to work in 4K instead or 1080p or 2K. Who will have the ability to really work with 8K for 8K delivery? I know big studios with close to unlimited technical budget will, but these are just a small part of the industry. Not everyone will work and present their work at IMAX theaters. There will be a handful of people doing it, Nolan included.

So having 8K now will future proof the camera for a long long time. The capabilities of the Dragon sensor has reached to a level where the high bar of 35mm film doesn't apply anymore. Yes, you could argue that there is too much noise and so on. But if you are going to shoot 8K you will need the budget for it's post production and a budget for shooting in that resolution. Who has that level of budget?? Big studios and filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, James Cameron, Peter Jackson and so on. And those productions will have the necessary needs to make something without a lot of noise and stuff like that.

Your camera will not make you one of those names. If you make something and master it in 4K and if it has a really good story that make people love your movie you might be offered to work at a higher budget. But when you reach the level of those filmmakers, you don't need to own a camera because the production already have a budget for it.

I love the VistaVision format and I would have loved to see a 6K sensor in VistaVision format, but what am I going to use it for? If I can't make something good with my 6K Dragon sensor as it is now, why am I even putting all this money into a camera like that? Why spend so much to be able to own one?

No, I'm going to stop pushing my acquisition format and put money into my post production hardware. If I get that to a level where I can work in real time with 6K, then it will be a much more creative process than a technical one. Just look at Fincher when he used the Viper. It's such an inferior camera to what was around when he worked on Benjamin Button, but he knew the camera and had developed processes for noise reduction and grading that he knew how to get right. If I can master 6K Dragon in post production then it will look better then most others working at 8K Vista because mastering a certain format takes time, knowledge and hardware not just "having it".

The 8K VistaVision will be around for a LONG time.

It not about audiences viewing 6k or 8k, its about acquisition. 4k from 8K is a heck of a lot, richer, crispier and sharper than 4k from 6k. That means the big screen experience in cinemas is richer. It is a genuine need by big studios. For streaming sites like Netflix which scale by bandwidth having a crisp image at all bandwidths is very important for the viewing experience. We can agree that 70% of TV will be broadcast digitally by 2017. This means the number of bouquets, channels etc will increase 100 fold. TV stations will soon become like websites, there'll be one for every interest. Whickh means satellite bandwidth will be reduced drastically whilst the delivery formats expand into 1080P and UHD. you will need sharp crips acquisition to survive as a content producer. Vista Vision 8k, will be the answer

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It not about audiences viewing 6k or 8k, its about acquisition. 4k from 8K is a heck of a lot, richer, crispier and sharper than 4k from 6k. That means the big screen experience in cinemas is richer. It is a genuine need by big studios. For streaming sites like Netflix which scale by bandwidth having a crisp image at all bandwidths is very important for the viewing experience. We can agree that 70% of TV will be broadcast digitally by 2017. This means the number of bouquets, channels etc will increase 100 fold. TV stations will soon become like websites, there'll be one for every interest. Whickh means satellite bandwidth will be reduced drastically whilst the delivery formats expand into 1080P and UHD. you will need sharp crips acquisition to survive as a content producer. Vista Vision 8k, will be the answer

Are you actually saying that the difference between 6K to 4K debayer and 8K to 4K debayer is actually visable to the common eye? Not us, forget about us, I mean the rest of the entire world, who watch movies and content on devices and streaming codecs that lower the quality of the mastering formats to an extreme extent.
The 4K output from a 6K Dragon image is quite enough for 4K standards. And you need to double up the infrastructure of your post production to even get 8K rolling, try talking to a VFX artist about working in anything higher than what we do now.

And just because broadcast might be digital for 70% of the market by 2017 doesn't equal to consumers having adopted 4K on a large scale by that time. The general public don't even know or understand what 4K is! Most people don't even care.

This is my point. The Weapon 8K will be around for a LONG time. We might get a new sensor with better colors and noise handling, but 8K as a format is putting so much demand on workflow and on the general publics adoption of 4K that it will take time to justify it's use for productions other than real high end movies like Interstellar or Avatar going to IMAX theaters.

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Once again, who will watch something mastered in 8K and when will viewing 8K be a reality for the majority of people in the world? 4K hasn't even taken off yet. It might be ten years before 4K is where 1080p is today. Technology is exponential, people are not. The demand from the general public to have 8K will be so low the coming years that even though there are screens and we provide 8K masters there will be little interest. Looking at the gaming industry and how it struggles with higher resolutions, there won't be anything even close to 4K before maybe the next generation gaming consoles.
Everything is connected, you can't just look at a small portion of the industry and say, "look 8K is coming and 4K is going to go away fast". The gaming industry is just as much part of creating demand for a certain resolution and they aren't even at true 1080p yet. Pushing rendering quality will demand lower resolution, so going 4K is going to demand jumping back a few years to be able to render graphics at 30p.

So 4K is going to stay for a while. We might barely see it adopted by the general public by 2020 and by 2025 it might be in everyones home. But 8K is going to be a hard sell in the world. Not for us, but for who we create content for. Regular people won't see a difference between 4K and 8K, I guarantee you.

On top of that, who will have the workflow ready for 8K? The demand on post production hardware will be enormous. I have a struggle just getting VFX artists to work in 4K instead or 1080p or 2K. Who will have the ability to really work with 8K for 8K delivery? I know big studios with close to unlimited technical budget will, but these are just a small part of the industry. Not everyone will work and present their work at IMAX theaters. There will be a handful of people doing it, Nolan included.

So having 8K now will future proof the camera for a long long time. The capabilities of the Dragon sensor has reached to a level where the high bar of 35mm film doesn't apply anymore. Yes, you could argue that there is too much noise and so on. But if you are going to shoot 8K you will need the budget for it's post production and a budget for shooting in that resolution. Who has that level of budget?? Big studios and filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, James Cameron, Peter Jackson and so on. And those productions will have the necessary needs to make something without a lot of noise and stuff like that.

Your camera will not make you one of those names. If you make something and master it in 4K and if it has a really good story that make people love your movie you might be offered to work at a higher budget. But when you reach the level of those filmmakers, you don't need to own a camera because the production already have a budget for it.

I love the VistaVision format and I would have loved to see a 6K sensor in VistaVision format, but what am I going to use it for? If I can't make something good with my 6K Dragon sensor as it is now, why am I even putting all this money into a camera like that? Why spend so much to be able to own one?

No, I'm going to stop pushing my acquisition format and put money into my post production hardware. If I get that to a level where I can work in real time with 6K, then it will be a much more creative process than a technical one. Just look at Fincher when he used the Viper. It's such an inferior camera to what was around when he worked on Benjamin Button, but he knew the camera and had developed processes for noise reduction and grading that he knew how to get right. If I can master 6K Dragon in post production then it will look better then most others working at 8K Vista because mastering a certain format takes time, knowledge and hardware not just "having it".

The 8K VistaVision will be around for a LONG time.

8K VistaVision will be around for a LONG time. I agree.

But I disagree with some of your points.

First, who says that the camera makes a name ? You can do a exceptionnal film on Super 8. VV opens news creative possibilities. It's an artistic choice, that's all. 8K and diffusing in 8K can be an artistic choice too. Like a a low resolution can be another one. (Some audience don't even like HD). It's like saying splendid movies were done on S16, why do you need S35 ?

Technology is exponential, you said it. 5 years ago the budget for 4K was enormous. Not so anymore. 8K will be afforable, sooner thank you think, I think.

Secondly, 4K-> 8K is not the same that HD->4K. You cannot compare them. When 1080p appeared, nobody (audience) knew the future. They invested in this format, because they didn't anticipate any futur ones, and they saw a big diff between SD and HD.

Now, the market is different. People are told there will be 2 formats : UHD 4K and UHD 8K. They know the future. Will they invest in a 4K display, knowing in 3-4 years the 8K will come, and that it will be the end of the road in term of resolution ? No, except of the enthusiast.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Once again, who will watch something mastered in 8K and when will viewing 8K be a reality for the majority of people in the world?

Chris - this is really a great point!

If we can for the moment ignore the "majority of people" (we can't say that today even for HD) - I have personally seen both 8K acquisition (camera) and display (projector) back in 2006 here in Japan at NHK R&D lab working just fine.
NHK has been testing 8K broadcast without access for general public for some time. They will have a first 8K test channel accessible to general public next year. Of course that "general public" would need to have 8K receiver & display tech to try this - but the point is that it will be "out in the open" (read = not secret R&D) accessible for those who want to try it.
The 2020 Olympics here in Japan will be filmed and broadcasted in 8K regardless whether any significant portion of the public will have a access to 8K consumer devices. But I'll bet that at least here in Japan we will see consumer 8K devices by 2020. They might be as expensive as 4K was when it launched - but look at where 4K is now. You can buy 55" 4K or UHD displays / TVs for under $1K...

So that brings me back to the "majority of people in the world" part...
There are two types of companies. Those who follow and those who lead. RED is most certainly the later. So is NHK...
This is not about whether there are any benefits to "general public" (but you will be surprised at what they have at NHK R&D center to show that WILL benefit general public - albeit maybe just the upper middle class and onwards).
This is about the real benefits this technology has for many other areas then just entertainment & television. There are countless industries that will benefit from 8K and beyond.
If NHK had working 8K tech 9 years ago - you can't even imagine what they have in their R&D center at the moment...

So we can decide. We can follow and wait until these higher standards become the norm for acquisition.
Or we can lead...

The best thing about RED is that you do have a choice...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Chris - this is really a great point!

If we can for the moment ignore the "majority of people" (we can't say that today even for HD) - I have personally seen both 8K acquisition (camera) and display (projector) back in 2006 here in Japan at NHK R&D lab working just fine.
NHK has been testing 8K broadcast without access for general public for some time. They will have a first 8K test channel accessible to general public next year. Of course that "general public" would need to have 8K receiver & display tech to try this - but the point is that it will be "out in the open" (read as not secret R&D) accessible for those who want to try it.
The 2020 Olympics here in Japan will be filmed and broadcasted in 8K regardless whether any significant portion of the public will have a access to 8K consumer devices. But I'll bet that at least here in Japan we will see consumer 8K devices by 2020. They might be as expensive as 4K was when it launched - but look at where 4K is now. You can buy 55" 4K or UHD displays / TVs for under $1K...

So that brings me back to the "majority of people in the world" part...
There are two types of companies. Those who follow and those who lead. RED is most certainly the later. So is NHK...
This is not about whether there are any benefits to "general public" (but you will be surprised at what they have at NHK R&D center to show that WILL benefit general public - albeit maybe just the upper middle class and onwards).
This is about the real benefits this technology has for many other areas then just entertainment & television. There are countless industries that will benefit from 8K and beyond.
If NHK had working 8K tech 9 years ago - you can't even imagine what they have in their R&D center at the moment...

So we can decide. We can follow and wait until these higher standards become the norm for acquisition.
Or we can lead...

The best thing about RED is that you do have a choice...

:sifone: Peter

I agree, Peter

 

[Christoffer Glans]

8K VistaVision will be around for a LONG time. I agree.

But I disagree with some of your points.

First, who says that the camera makes a name ? You can do a exceptionnal film on Super 8. VV opens news creative possibilities. It's an artistic choice, that's all. 8K and diffusing in 8K can be an artistic choice too. Like a a low resolution can be another one. (Some audience don't even like HD).

Technology is exponential, you said it. 5 years ago the budget for 4K was enormous. Not so anymore. 8K will be afforable, sooner thank you think, I think.

Secondly, 4K-> 8K is not the same that HD->4K. You cannot compare them. When 1080p appeared, nobody (audience) knew the future. They invest in this format, because they didn't anticipate any futur formats, and they saw a big diff between SD and HD.

Now, the market is different. People are told there will be 2 formats : UHD 4K and UHD 8K. They know the future. Will they invest in a 4K display, knowing in 3-4 years the 8K will come, and that it will be the end of the road in term of resolution ? No, except of the enthusiast.

You don't really argue against what I said with this :smiley:
If we view resolution as a creative choice it even becomes less valid to push resolution higher. I get that things move fast, but I'm talking about the psychology of the masses, the consumers.
Go down to the local store and ask the clerk if they plan to buy a 4K TV. After that, ask if they have thought about 8K. Listen to why they want it.

There are two types of companies. Those who follow and those who lead. RED is most certainly the later. So is NHK...
This is not about whether there are any benefits to "general public"
This is about the real benefits this technology has for many other areas then just entertainment & television. There are countless industries that will benefit from 8K and beyond.
If NHK had working 8K tech 9 years ago - you can't even imagine what they have in their R&D center at the moment...

So we can decide. We can follow and wait until these higher standards become the norm for acquisition.
Or we can lead...

The best thing about RED is that you do have a choice...

:sifone: Peter

But WE are not the leaders. We are not even the followers. We are the content providers and we talk to the people viewing our work.
What a company does, leading or following is not related to what we do. We want something that enables us to create what we want to create and if my creation is pulled under the heavy workflow blanked of 8K just because we think we need to lead, I will not be able to create content that people will want to have.

True creators also value to have something last the pass of time. Because the difference between viewing 8K and 4K material is rather unnoticeable for the general person, we are now locked into a place where we need a really large screen to give people a reason for 8K. A screen so large that most people won't be able to have it. Resolution comes to an end, where we don't need more. I would say that 8K is that end. What happens after that would be a totally new way of viewing movies, like for instance VR.

VR might benefit from 8K because of it's large field of view. But it also demands a totally new type of camera and essentially a new type of storytelling, not like we do with film and television.
There might not even be any cuts in VR movies, more like what was done with Birdman.

My point is that 8K will be around until the end of viewing content with screens because our eyes won't be able to make out differences in resolution. 4K will be enough for most people and 8K will be the prime resolution. Just because 0,0000001% of the population have eyes that can notice the difference between let's say 12K and 8K doesn't mean anything good comes out of pushing technology towards 12K.

Just because you can do it, just because your R&D department have developed a certain technology doesn't mean it's rational. The rational thing to do right now is to push for better colors, noise and codecs.
Why bother with 8K or 4K if we have bad compression, bad noise, bad colors and bad motion?

The hunt for resolution isn't all that rational and the higher resolution gets, the less rational it becomes.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

This is some pretty deep 'lead follow or get out of the way' convo going on here. I would say as a content producer I just hope the 8K roll out is one heck of lot smoother than the 'I've fallen and I can' t get up' Epic M beta mess, and the 16 stops is really 13.5 and you can buy an OLPF to fix those noisy blacks, and if you give the camera a blanket and a lollipop it will give you a pretty image. For me Red is like the fabulous tech sandbox. It has a great role to play, but sometimes .... well. The best that can be said is the camera world would be a lot less interesting if Red were not in it.