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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are You Guys Kidding??

Steve Sherrick said:
Jeff, you are correct to a certain degree, but it doesn't matter because that's not the reality that most of us are facing. Even in my own workflows I use offline/online approach. It just makes the editing experience with a client in the room much better, especially with a sequence that has twelve tracks, all with effects on them. Also, certain NLEs are just better when exchanging media, keeping proper metadata, etc. And you can't underestimate the years of experience editors have with a toolset. Having them switch over due to a codec is not an easy sell. We can still have R3D glory and proxies. There's no shame in it. Experienced editors have worked this way for decades. Now, if Avid steps it up and builds in awesome GPU support, then you may see the tides change a bit. FCP 7 is what it is. Nothing new going to happen with those workflows.
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Sure Steve, I do understand the reality of all this. Been living it myself for the past several years. I'm just saying that from RED's point of view, they can't really go down this path as it negates most of what they have been promoting since the RED One was released.

Personally, I don't have to touch proxies and transcodes in my workflows anymore. Or at least I don't other than a very small percentage of the time. I'm fortunate to be very encapsulated into a self-contained workflow environment nowadays and when I do have dealings with clients and there are workflow considerations, tool considerations, etc.. We handle those on a case by case basis. Most all my jobs are mine to handle from pre-production through finish, so I (or my employees) handle shooting, editing, motion graphics/ FX, coloring, finishing... I shoot, edit, post, deliver, pretty much everything except for feature films and music videos. Quite honestly, I'd love to do music videos, but the opportunity rarely presents itself in my market. And when it does, it usually goes those much lower on the pricing food chain. The bulk of my work is corporate and I have also been doing a ton of commercials over the past year. So 15/ 30 spots very much short-form for commercials. Most of my corporate stuff is longer, but still fast turn-around, minimal crews, lots of EFP and documentary style production. Corporate clients love the ability to extract full-res stills right from the video. Love that I can piece the edit right there, on the spot, as we shoot. Transcodes just slow me down and are an unnecessary extra step.

The most common area I still use proxies, or more appropriately worded would be transcoded footage, is for graphics/FX. OTOH, I wrote R3D file input plugins for both Lightwave and Modo. I think there might be a commercially available one out there for Lightwave now, but perhaps not. I suppose I could package them up and sell the plugins, maybe. Then again, I'm the only one that has them... Muahahahaa. I like to think I'm a helpful guy here on the forums most of the time. I don't mind sharing a lot of the day to day stuff. But there are lots of things I don't talk about. Knowledge is power and controlling knowledge is often the key to success in an industry. I have zero interest in following the crowd, buying third-party recorder products to give my workflows the appearance of being easier. I'd much rather explore new workflow tools and techniques and if there is a gap in a workflow, I'll create the tool to fill that gap where I can. Sometimes others run into the same obstacles and when I already have the solution, that equals $$$. Yep, that's business... In a way, those making external recorders are also circumventing obstacles. But they're doing it an introspective approach to the problem, enabling people to remain bound to yesterdays tools and workflows. I have no interest in being there.

As for years of experience, I have to disagree on that somewhat. I totally have respect for those with years of experience as an editor, colorist, programmer, whatever... But when it comes to experience with a tool or set of tools, that's somewhat irrelevant. Tools come and go and are always evolving anyway. FCP7 will eventually die off. It's not on life support anymore, it's been cut off. Only a matter of time before it doesn't run properly on a new Mac or OSX release, Apple has officially EOL'd and there will be no further updates or support. Even if it does still run on a new Mac under OSX 10.9.5 or whatever, it's going to be such a dog compared to any other supported software at that time. It's already that way... It's still stuck in single-threaded, 32bit limbo as it is. So, where does that leave someone who has a decade of FCP experience? Hopefully it means they have had time to mature as a capable and accomplished EDITOR, who can transition to another toolset with minimal effort because the fundamentals are all the same and his techniques are sound. Learning the new tool should be trivial. I probably do have a somewhat cynical look on that because I'm always testing and learning new tools. Not a big deal to me, that's what I do. If brush #1 doesn't paint my house as efficiently as brush #2, then I'll use brush #2, even if brush #1 is like the standard brush everyone's been using for the last 10 years. Editors are a funny breed when it comes to software users across multiple disciplines or industries. Most editors will use brush #1 until they day they die, or until they are forced to use something else at gunpoint, at which time many would probably rather choose to die. ...Just sayin'
 
A simple 1080p Prores recorder module that's thin, clips onto the back, takes the old Red CF cards and goes for $999 would rock my world :-). There are many times I want to break out my Epic but dont just because 4k/5k is so overkill and I'm too lazy to want to transcode or deal with those giant files.
 
R3D integration must be the mantra

R3D integration must be the mantra

Fascinating thread. So many "truths" that can't coexist.

FWIW as soon as the Sound Devices PIX240 shipped I went on RU and begged RED to reach out to them. I know things such as these are always much harder than they seem. That said, it seemed like RED could build a cage module of some type that could house the PIX and allow it to snap into the module system. It had the two things that a big chunk of the market wanted - ready to edit ProRes OR DNxHD with hero audio (SD 7 series pre-amps built in!) already in place. Well respected SD build quality seemed a good fit for RED's pro ethos.

The PIX sold for around $2,800, I figured another grand for a bracket/cage/module piece, so for $4,000 my Epic could masquerade as a 1080 single system video camera and I could book rental days to pay off the camera. Would those clients be leaving a lot of IQ on the table - yep. Would they care - not to be an asshole, but some folks are just making sausage - the nuances of great IQ are just not job one for everybody.

Does that POV make me an enabler for the "good enough" mentality I despise? To some degree. But the upside is that the R3Ds are still being recorded to the internal RedMag and can be archived, an EDL/ALE/XML project file can be thrown on the drive/tape with the original media and a properly graded higher resolution version can still be created in the future.

Like Jeff, I respect that RED has staked out the quality high ground and by maintaining their stance it keeps all of us banging on the NLE/DI vendors to fully support R3D files as both low res extractions for editorial and as the source media for rendered output.

Cheers - #19
 
robert, those big words are unbecoming - which is to say you sound like a dumbass ;)
relax, i'm only half-kidding... you make some good points somewhere in the middle of all that.

anyone that can't wait til spring can go buy a hyperdeck shuttle already - prores and dnxhd, no? what this is really about is complainers who don't appreciate red's philosophy, which has actually become increasingly clear and very balanced, as you can see. and if you haven't noticed, they've been working on a sensor which i guess isn't all that important or time-consuming. :)
 
Paul, effectively a HyperDeck that bolts onto the rear of the Epic is what I want. Although in some senses it'd be SIMPLER than the hyperdeck as we dont need buttons on it and it could just use the CF cards. Though I see the HyperDeck is only $345. I should search Reduser to see if anyone has had good success rigging it up for the Epic
 
+1 Editing a 96min feature in PP on my MBP retina with no rocket and just a TB G-RAID. No problem.
 
Until the hyperdeck becomes aware of camera file naming it's too cumbersome of a solution. The better option is the samurai for 1600 is filename aware and provides options for dnxhd and prores 422. Plus you get an additional 5 inch LCD
 
Filip Vandoorne said:
...But If you really want a compact and cheap recordingmodule, get a Blackmagic Shuttle2.
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Yep. I've just bought one today.

When Jim first announced the Epic, one of the features was going to be 1080p Full Frame.
Red still haven't delivered this, and I've got fed up waiting.
So once my Shuttle arrives, I will have recording times of a couple of hours of full frame at 1080p.
 
I am not too sure why so much anger is being directed at RED, as if somehow they personally are out to get you. While it would be great to have some sort of module for recording proxy files, I would rather red spend what little resources they have on creating a better sensor instead of tackling an already oversaturated market. I own an Atomos Samuari and it records identical clip names as the red and triggers when the red is triggered. It is simple to use and provides instant proxys for offline editing which can then be easily resync'd to the R3D files because they have the same name. At least for my workflow this works great. There is no such thing as a perfect camera and there never will be. What we do have, however, is an amazing camera that produces fantastic footage and thats what Red needs to continue to focus on. Again this is just my opinion. Cheers
 
Guys, "editorial" and "proxy file" aren't synonomous with "finishing" and "master file."

If there are people here, who because they can edit their own projects natively, believe that movies like "The Social Network" and "The Amazing Spiderman" were/should/could be edited using .R3D's, sobeit.
 
Peter Moretti said:
Guys, "editoral" and "proxy file" aren't synonomous with "finishing" and "master file."

If there are people here, who because they can edit their own projects natively, believe that movies like "The Social Network" and "The Amazing Spiderman" were/should/could be edited using .R3D's, sobeit.
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Agreed. Even from a security standpoint, it's best to limit access to the highest quality footage to only those that absolutely need it
 
Evaan Kheraj said:
I am not too sure why so much anger is being directed at RED, as if somehow they personally are out to get you. While it would be great to have some sort of module for recording proxy files, I would rather red spend what little resources they have on creating a better sensor instead of tackling an already oversaturated market. I own an Atomos Samuari and it records identical clip names as the red and triggers when the red is triggered. It is simple to use and provides instant proxys for offline editing which can then be easily resync'd to the R3D files because they have the same name. At least for my workflow this works great. There is no such thing as a perfect camera and there never will be. What we do have, however, is an amazing camera that produces fantastic footage and thats what Red needs to continue to focus on. Again this is just my opinion. Cheers
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It's not anger but rather concern in the vein of "why hasn't this happened already" and "oh shit, the f55 is going to kill my epic rentals just like the Alexa did."
No one was being angry or insulting until Paul chimed in.
 
Honestly, what motivated my initial post was recognizing that Sony somewhat dropped the ball by not offering DNxHD or ProRes for their proxy recording. So if Red did/could offer this, it would be an advantage for them.
 
tbh if you invest in Red you're investing in R3D. If you're no onboard for R3D then you probaly picked the wrong camera to invest in. For the times when you might want to push a square peg into a round hole and deliver a 1080p prores or dnxhd file then there are a plethora of options.
 
Ben Scott said:
tbh if you invest in Red you're investing in R3D. If you're no onboard for R3D then you probaly picked the wrong camera to invest in. For the times when you might want to push a square peg into a round hole and deliver a 1080p prores or dnxhd file then there are a plethora of options.
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In 2008, I picked the right camera to invest in for sure. Back then there was really no other options for the price - super 35mm sensor and raw recording. The camera was groundbreaking without a doubt. My concern is my investment for the next 4, or lets say 2 years. This discussion is not really about the use of r3d, it's awesome, I get it, I've used it and promoted it from day one of owning my red one.
There may be a plethora of options of options (well, a few options anyway) but wouldn't it be nice to just attach a prores module and generate PROXY files for editing or prores files for quick turnaround projects on the camera system that I have invested in and championed for the last 4 years?
Mark Toia is a huge epic fan and yet he was the one the asked for this several years ago. Back in 2010, Jim announced a proxy module http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?43613-Proxy-Module which shows that red also recognized a need for it.
Once more: nobody is attacking red or your choice of camera, we are having a discussion.
 
Of course we are talking about regular speed material right? 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 59.94.

i mean, if any of these clients want you to breakout the high speed shots, a major advantage over the "other" cameras what do you do then?

if RED's proxy module doesn't give you high speed, over or under cracked material will these thread titles turn into:

RED: Please give us over/under cranking in the proxies?

so much stuff is at 22, 26, 32, 48 or other speeds in so many things I see and do.

There is no end to this stuff. Have we forgotten what we do have in our hands? It seems like some people in this thread feel like they own a boat anchor. It's still the best friggin camera for the money, price, performence. period.

David
 
Shane Kelly said:
In 2008, I picked the right camera to invest in for sure. Back then there was really no other options for the price - super 35mm sensor and raw recording. The camera was groundbreaking without a doubt. My concern is my investment for the next 4, or lets say 2 years. This discussion is not really about the use of r3d, it's awesome, I get it, I've used it and promoted it from day one of owning my red one.
There may be a plethora of options of options (well, a few options anyway) but wouldn't it be nice to just attach a prores module and generate PROXY files for editing or prores files for quick turnaround projects on the camera system that I have invested in and championed for the last 4 years?
Mark Toia is a huge epic fan and yet he was the one the asked for this several years ago. Back in 2010, Jim announced a proxy module http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?43613-Proxy-Module which shows that red also recognized a need for it.
Once more: nobody is attacking red or your choice of camera, we are having a discussion.
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Plenty of people have stated it is a huge failing in Red's part to not have it on offer, despite it being readily available from many other companies and Red's resources obviously being stretched by all the other R&D they do and there only being a certain number of hours in the day. Sure it would be nice if it said Red on the side but the solutions already exist and the people saying Red have cost them jobs by not having released this module yet need to have a think about their business and investment strategies.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
RED is caught between a rock and a bigger rock on this one. If they give in and deliver ProRes/ DNxHD proxy recording, then that means they have caved in to the masses and the whole "good enough" approach. People will do what they do when shooting Alexa. 99% of everything shot on Alexa will be acquired, posted and delivered at 1080p/2K baked RGB. That is what they DON'T WANT. Native R3D support is becoming quite good in most NLE and post software now and the more people embrace it, the greater and more widespread that support will become. RED is about shooting high resolution and RAW. Proxies are an enabler drug for those addicted to the past, IMO.

I haven't needed proxies in any of my work for some time now. I don't own a proxy module and don't dick around with transcodes. The tools are there, people just have to be willing to explore them and learn new ways to use this stuff. 95% of the time, transcoding to ProRes for proxies, dailies, etc.. is a waste of time. And yes, that is my official stance on that. The sad and unfortunate reality is that, even though it's a waste of time, most in the post industry don't understand this and they still want to shoehorn the R3D RAW workflow into their tired old methods from 2005. It's not about making it easy or keeping it simple, this is about complacency within the industry. Proxy workflows are a pain in the ass. It's so much easier and less problematic to just go DTE with the R3D files and stay RAW all the way through the pipeline until you final render. If your workflows and tools don't allow for that, maybe it's time to evaluate new workflows and tools instead of trying to perpetuate the past.

Anyway, I feel like I'm preaching to the choir and I'm about to get stoned, so I'll step down from my soapbox.
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Preach on brother, those who fear change deserve to be left in the past...
 
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