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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why do we need a RED Rocket card?

M Most said:
But Frankie, how exactly is that any different from what's done with Alexa ProRes footage? Other than the Rocket cards, of course...
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Here in my neck of the woods a lot of people have systems that struggle with the prores444. Not only that, they will think that is "raw" so they will bring me a render out of FCP, instead of the original files and a EDL/XML.

Given, with a bit of education and a bit more $ none of this would be an issue, unfortunately we are not there yet. And the fact that now there a new NEW crop of "Editors" that dont care for any kind of process/workflow and since they can import the "raw alexa files" it kinda makes it a pain :(


But I agree, with the right people and pseudo right hardware they both are about the same to us workflow wise.


I must agree its kinda fun to power thru red dailies with the dual red rocket setup ;-)
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
i hate the alexa avid workflow, i like the r3d red rocket avid workflow.
for a smooth alexa avid worklfow you need resolve + the dnxhd plug in for 500 usd.
redcine x is free. my 2 cents. the realtime transcoding power of the rocket is worth every single dollar.
Click to expand...

Isn't hate a bit too strong of a feeling (blinding even)? They are both great tools, and once you figure out whats the "correct" workflow for you its all smooth sailing.
Embrace it. Think of it this way, you can broaden the ammount of clients you can approach for post services, and maybe even learn something new :-)

The alexa has both workflows, u can go the Prores route or the arriraw route, its up to the user.


Now back on topic, you dont NEED NEED a red rocket to work with red, but it is nice to have one.
 
I get it... the RR card costs $5,000 and you need it for the R3D workflow, especially if you are a post house. Actually you need more than one probably. That extra cost sucks. Its apparently easier to work with Alexa footage too. However, I don't buy the "its cheaper" argument. Sure it may be cheaper for post, but what about the extra $50,000 it costs for an Alexa (that's without a Codex RAW recorder)? That must be part of the equation as well. You could buy 10 RR cards. So, its really not about how much it costs, but rather who has to pay for it. The good news for post guys is that NLEs, online, and color correction tools are getting cheaper and more powerful everyday. In RedCine X's case... its free :)
 
Clint Lealos said:
In RedCine X's case... its free :)
Click to expand...

And so is the Resolve Lite. But I wouldn't want to do a grading job with either one:-)
The notion, that tools have to be either free or under a $1k to be useful, unfortunately, becoming a norm.
Said that, I also would like to see an end to the practice of employing a single use proprietary hardware, like RR, Pable or any kind of dedicated grading panel (although, I have to admit, the last one is tough pill to swallow. Blackboard 2 is insane:-).
There is nothing wrong with Red workflow. All I'm saying is Red should allow manufacturers to do GPU debayer. May be then R3D will become as ubiquitous as QT and may be there will be no more reason to use Prores or MXF for offline. That is all...
 
Jake, quick Q. Will the free davinci work ok for doing dailies kind of work? I like Redcine, but I am looking for something a bit more robust and BL is overkill...
 
Frank Cueto said:
Jake, quick Q. Will the free davinci work ok for doing dailies kind of work? I like Redcine, but I am looking for something a bit more robust and BL is overkill...
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It's pretty much custom designed for it:-)
The only difference between the two is the Lite can only use one GPU for processing, it is limited to just two nodes and no Remote grading. Otherwise they're identical.
Lite can also generate slates, if needed. And you can use it to generate Alexa dailies (MXF extra license needs to be purchased) with standard Alexa LUT:-)
 
I think I finally understand why even the latest GPUs fail to support the output of 5K R3D files:
I have just checked out the specs of the best NVIDIA has to offer, and even the Quadro 6000 can only output a max of 2560x1600 @ 60fps @ 10bit per color (DisplayPort).
So it cannot support 5K@120fps, which is about 3.4 times the resolution, and twice the frame-rate.
It seems this limitation has more to do with the connector specs of DisplayPort and Dual-Link DVI.
There's also an HD-SDI version of the Quadro 6000, but it seems to have the same output limitation.

Check out this table from a PDF published by NVIDIA:



I guess that's why Deanan said they are not good enough.

EDIT: After digging around a little further, I found this piece of info from an HP Z800 document:
"NVIDIA SLI Mosaic Technology enables transparent scaling of any application, tear-free across up to four display channels,
including support for 4K projection, while delivering full performance from a single SLI certified workstation."

So it is possible to output 4K using Quadro 6000 cards, but it requires more than one card (using SLI).
 
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Eric Z said:
I think I finally understand why even the latest GPUs fail to support the output of 5K R3D files:
I have just checked out the specs of the best NVIDIA has to offer, and even the Quadro 6000 can only output a max of 2560x1600 @ 60fps @ 10bit per color (DisplayPort).
So it cannot support 5K@120fps, which is about 3.4 times the resolution, and twice the frame-rate.
It seems this limitation has more to do with the connector specs of DisplayPort and Dual-Link DVI.
There's also an HD-SDI version of the Quadro 6000, but it seems to have the same output limitation.

Check out this table from a PDF published by NVIDIA:



I guess that's why Deanan said they are not good enough.

EDIT: After digging around a little further, I found this piece of info from an HP Z800 document:
"NVIDIA SLI Mosaic Technology enables transparent scaling of any application, tear-free across up to four display channels,
including support for 4K projection, while delivering full performance from a single SLI certified workstation."

So it is possible to output 4K using Quadro 6000 cards, but it requires more than one card (using SLI).
Click to expand...


Eric, you really don't need to playback 5K at 120fps. Even if you shot at 120fps you'll need to play it at 23, 976, 24, 25, etc. Unless you have a 5K monitor, you don't need to display r3d at 5k. Even at 1/4 rez on an hd monitor your stuff will look good, and if you have a new computer i guess half rez will look amazing on an hd monitor. If you have the money, add 1 or 2 redrocket cards, but for the same money i would buy a really powerfull computer with more than one powerful GPU.

The real question is not about alexa post vs. red post, is about adobe vs. avid vs. FCP 7 or x.

If you go the Adobe route, the workflow is the same, import, edit. FCP users tend to blame the cameras instead of the software of choice.

For my soon to arrive Epic i will buy the sound devices pix 240 to record prores or dnxhd proxies, but i will still use r3d at my post house. Ppro is working flawlessly for file based editing.
 
Santiago,

You're right about the playback speed. Almost everyone conform their footage to somewhere between 23.976fps and 30fps.
Come to think of it - I have never seen a playback timeline for 4K/5K 2D footage of 50fps, 60fps, or dare I say it - 120fps.

Is that because of hardware limitations (GPU not powerful enough, and most LCDs are capped at 60Hz in 2D)?
Or is it simply a preference of most of the editors?
 
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jake blackstone said:
And so is the Resolve Lite. But I wouldn't want to do a grading job with either one:-)
The notion, that tools have to be either free or under a $1k to be useful, unfortunately, becoming a norm.
Said that, I also would like to see an end to the practice of employing a single use proprietary hardware, like RR, Pable or any kind of dedicated grading panel (although, I have to admit, the last one is tough pill to swallow. Blackboard 2 is insane:-).
There is nothing wrong with Red workflow. All I'm saying is Red should allow manufacturers to do GPU debayer. May be then R3D will become as ubiquitous as QT and may be there will be no more reason to use Prores or MXF for offline. That is all...
Click to expand...
lite allows only 2 nodes so you cant do HDR with it..1080p max res. and bla bla..
im wondering how can i increase the buffer space on RedCineX? even with Redrocket it only buffers 2-3 seconds on FULL..10 seconds on 1/2 res
any help on this?
 
I'm more interested in why REDCine-X is not multicore aware like premiere pro and Davinci resolve. If RCX could just use the power of a 12 core Mac Pro we could get realtime playback at 1/2 res. Hopefully with future processors like the 16 core Mac Pro we can attain full res realtime playback via CPU debayering. The good news is that you really don't need a RR card if you have the current 12 core Mac Pro... At least not for playback to an HD screen.
 
Thanks for the info, Andrae
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
lite allows only 2 nodes so you cant do HDR with it..1080p max res. and bla bla..
im wondering how can i increase the buffer space on RedCineX? even with Redrocket it only buffers 2-3 seconds on FULL..10 seconds on 1/2 res
any help on this?
Click to expand...
Yes, you can do HDRx on Lite, as Peter explained a while ago. But the question from Frank was about the use of Lite for dailies. Why would you need to use HDRx for dailies?
 
Andrae Palmer said:
I'm more interested in why REDCine-X is not multicore aware like premiere pro and Davinci resolve. If RCX could just use the power of a 12 core Mac Pro we could get realtime playback at 1/2 res. Hopefully with future processors like the 16 core Mac Pro we can attain full res realtime playback via CPU debayering.
Click to expand...

To keep it simple, it's not as easy as you would think and it requires significant time and testing to code and optimize multi-threaded applications to the level that you would like.
 
Andrae Palmer said:
I'm more interested in why REDCine-X is not multicore aware like premiere pro and Davinci resolve. If RCX could just use the power of a 12 core Mac Pro we could get realtime playback at 1/2 res. Hopefully with future processors like the 16 core Mac Pro we can attain full res realtime playback via CPU debayering. The good news is that you really don't need a RR card if you have the current 12 core Mac Pro... At least not for playback to an HD screen.
Click to expand...

Just use Resolve Lite. Problem solved...
 
Greg M said:
Yes, its the very same JPEG2000 Card thats in my $100K DVS Clipster.
Click to expand...

That being the case, it would be great if someone would tap its potential to accelerate DCP creation.

Am I off base there?
 
Jake,
DaVinci Resolve Lite is only available for Mac OSX. The Windows version won't come out until 2012.
 
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