Why do we need a RED Rocket card?

[Adam Eden]

I am sorry to disagree with what people are saying here...

Red is much easier than Alexa in a post environment.

I only run AVID and have never gone down the Final cut Poo route.

I mainly make TV commercials and TV programs. Avid DNX-185x with a best light is far easier to work with than Alexa. I am based in Australia and all the big post houses are AVID or SMOKE.
People think they prefer ALEXA in Australia, but they are mis informed.. Once they have worked with RED and ROCKET/ Red CINE X, they couldn't be happier. I output at DNX36 and DNX185x at the same time and NO ONE complains.. If anything my customers are really happy with the speed they can get their dailies and HIRES images from me.


Alot of people don't get LOG images or even REDLOG FILM, so i supply a great looking REDCOLOUR2/ REDGAMMA2 image and everyone is happy.

Alexa in my eyes is a glorified HDCAM F900.. SO you might as well stick with an F900 as i prefer the pics on that camera to an Alexa

BTW if Alexa was better I would own it! I choose to own the best system and RED is it.

 

[jake blackstone]

I am sorry to disagree with what people are saying here...

Red is much easier than Alexa in a post environment.
People think they prefer ALEXA in Australia, but they are mis informed..

Do you mind educating the misinformed masses, who thinks they prefer the ease of ALEXA post, why Red post is easier?

 

[Adam Eden]

I thought I did....

Avid uses MXF not PRORES.

If you are one of the people that enjoys GAMMA shift on a daily basis, then be my guest.

I have a reasonable sized production company, IE 8 AVIDS on UNITY, Da Vinci, EPIC, RED ONE MX etc. The amount of times I am fixing peoples fuck ups that have originated from final cut/ pro res and anything that was prores originated is incredible.

People just need to understand the RED workflow and thats it. The days of people transcoding RED to DPX files should be over by now.

I am personally GLAD that APPLE fucked up final cut, as it has always been a toy by comparison to AVID. The AVID workflow and media management has always been far superior to everything else.
And being able to make DNX-36 and DNX-185x simultaneously has always been a very attractive feature for the RED system.

Jake you are a colourist, no offence but my company is an end to end full service production company so we shoot/ cut/ grade and deliver. I have tried ALEXA and I would rather work in 4-5K and downscale to 1080p than be stuck in 1080p from Alexa. The amount of times we only get 1 or 2 takes (due to time) and get back into edit and turn 1 shot into 3 sizes is almost daily. And because of RED we do not loose resolution and no one can see the difference.

And also having the ability to shoot 4k or whatever and have various speeds like 100FPS! Then in my books RED is much easier to work with. Otherwise you would need an ALEXA and a PHANTOM on the same set.

The Phantom post is horrendous unless you use RESOLVE or something similar.

I can keep going if you like.....

 

[jake blackstone]

I thought I did....

Avid uses MXF not PRORES.

If you are one of the people that enjoys GAMMA shift on a daily basis, then be my guest.

I have a reasonable sized production company, IE 8 AVIDS on UNITY, Da Vinci, EPIC, RED ONE MX etc. The amount of times I am fixing peoples fuck ups that have originated from final cut/ pro res and anything that was prores originated is incredible.

People just need to understand the RED workflow and thats it. The days of people transcoding RED to DPX files should be over by now.

I am personally GLAD that APPLE fucked up final cut, as it has always been a toy by comparison to AVID. The AVID workflow and media management has always been far superior to everything else.
And being able to make DNX-36 and DNX-185x simultaneously has always been a very attractive feature for the RED system.

Jake you are a colourist, no offence but my company is an end to end full service production company so we shoot/ cut/ grade and deliver. I have tried ALEXA and I would rather work in 4-5K and downscale to 1080p than be stuck in 1080p from Alexa. The amount of times we only get 1 or 2 takes (due to time) and get back into edit and turn 1 shot into 3 sizes is almost daily. And because of RED we do not loose resolution and no one can see the difference.

And also having the ability to shoot 4k or whatever and have various speeds like 100FPS! Then in my books RED is much easier to work with. Otherwise you would need an ALEXA and a PHANTOM on the same set.

The Phantom post is horrendous unless you use RESOLVE or something similar.

I can keep going if you like.....

No need to go on, please...
Obviously Adam you have some strong feelings on this subject. I can see it and appreciate it.
Unfortunately, I still fail to understand your explanation as to why RED post is easier, than ARRI. Gamma shift? Is that it?
All I can see from your answer, that you're implying, that because I'm a colorist (finishing artist by the way) I do not have a full grasp and appreciation for the post? Why would I take an offense at that?

 

[Eric Z]

Guys,
Please stick to the subject. This is NOT about ARRI workflow vs RED Workflow.

 

[Adam Eden]

Jake I give up.

You are the best. No one can ever ne better than you or even as good as you. This thread is suppose to be about a red rocket card, not about alexa vs red.

And who gives a fuck about alexa anyway. This is a RED forum anyway. I alwyas end up arguing with you so this is my final post ever to anything you post.

Good luck mate!

 

[jake blackstone]

Guys,
Please stick to the subject. This is NOT about ARRI workflow vs RED Workflow.

Yes, back to your original question. "Why do we need Red Rocket?"
The simple answer is- we don't need it. Red needs to allow manufacturers to do GPU debayer and deliver promised Prores module, just like ARRI. Then we wouldn't have this discussion

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake I give up.

You are the best. No one can ever ne better than you or even as good as you. This thread is suppose to be about a red rocket card, not about alexa vs red.

And who gives a fuck about alexa anyway. This is a RED forum anyway. I alwyas end up arguing with you so this is my final post ever to anything you post.

Good luck mate!

Unlike you Adam, I'm camera agnostic and I work with different material every day. That is the business I'm in- finishing post. I see every day, when people bash Red for it's plastic look, Canon for having too much aliasing, Alexa for not having enough resolution and so on. I don't care. I just go on with my job and make those images as good as they can be. Said that, I know which camera provides me with the easiest path to the finish.
And as of today, mate, it's Alexa. No Red Rocket required. Sorry...

 

[Dustin Cross]

We need a Rocket because it makes working with Red footage just a fast as dealing with Prores 444.

The other answer to the question is because Red wants quality control. They don't want every company out there writing their own debayer for Red footage and people using the debayer from Company X to say that Red footage sucks. I wish Red would allow some companies to do their own thing, but they aren't. I am pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with the profit Red is getting from selling Red Rockets.


Dusty

 

[Justin Barham]

RE: RED vs. Alexa editorial/post:

Sorry, I have to agree with Jake on this subject. And so does essentially the entire television production industry. I'm not saying it's better. I am saying it's easier and simpler.

and...

I am sorry to disagree with what people are saying here...

Red is much easier than Alexa in a post environment.

Sorry, but I'm going to go with Mike and Hollywood over Adam and Australia on this one. And the fact that while I can AMA both in, only one requires a $5K card to transcode with reasonable speed.

And BTW, whatever happened to the "battle tested" Red Rocket cards?

 

[Frank Cueto]

For us R3d are WAY easier to Color grade, Considering all ALEXA footage we get is Prores (12 bit 4:4:4), and the R3d footage we get are R3D, those R3D are way easier to grade than Alexa Footage (considering their raw nateure and kelvin adjsutments and what not).
We have a dual red rocket dailies/grading setup, which we use to prep dailies for all our clients (Disclaimer)

 

[jake blackstone]

For us R3d are WAY easier to Color grade, Considering all ALEXA footage we get is Prores (12 bit 4:4:4), and the R3d footage we get are R3D, those R3D are way easier to grade than Alexa Footage (considering their raw nateure and kelvin adjsutments and what not).
We have a dual red rocket dailies/grading setup, which we use to prep dailies for all our clients (Disclaimer)

Hi Frank.
Of coarse grading R3D is better, than Prores. It's the process, that occurs before material is loaded and conformed in the Baselight that is in question

 

[Frank Cueto]

Oh, well the way we work sure makes me feel blessed.

We usually get the footage late night or early am, make editorial dailies *sync audio if needed. We will burn in some TC and some metadata visually.

Those files dont tend to weigh much and do playback just about anywhere. Client edits his offline version and then emails us the edl/xml.


That workjflow leaves the heavylifting for when its necessary and in the meantime my client can edit on his laptop's internal drive if so he pleases. No need to remove or pregrade or special LUT plugins for the LOG-C look.

Keep in mind, now we have 2 red rockets on our Baselight/Kompressor, but still, except for the speed or cost of red rockets, The raw workflow with editorial dailies has soo much to offer.

(Pardon syntasix, I am writing this on a 40 hour long stint )

 

[Clint Lealos]

My belief is both sides are actually right. Meaning, there is no easier way. Just different ways

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i hate the alexa avid workflow, i like the r3d red rocket avid workflow.
for a smooth alexa avid worklfow you need resolve + the dnxhd plug in for 500 usd.
redcine x is free. my 2 cents. the realtime transcoding power of the rocket is worth every single dollar.

 

[Frank Cueto]

My belief is both sides are actually right. Meaning, there is no easier way. Just different ways

Well put.

 

[jake blackstone]

We usually get the footage late night or early am, make editorial dailies *sync audio if needed. We will burn in some TC and some metadata visually.

No need to do this with Alexa as well as associated cost of providing dailies.

No need to remove or pregrade or special LUT plugins for the LOG-C look.

Keep in mind, now we have 2 red rockets on our Baselight/Kompressor, but still, except for the speed or cost of red rockets, The raw workflow with editorial dailies has soo much to offer.

$10K for 2 RR vs $99 FCP LUT plugin from Light Illusions. LUT works in real time.

 

[M Most]

Oh, well the way we work sure makes me feel blessed.

We usually get the footage late night or early am, make editorial dailies *sync audio if needed. We will burn in some TC and some metadata visually.

Those files dont tend to weigh much and do playback just about anywhere. Client edits his offline version and then emails us the edl/xml.


That workjflow leaves the heavylifting for when its necessary and in the meantime my client can edit on his laptop's internal drive if so he pleases. No need to remove or pregrade or special LUT plugins for the LOG-C look.

Keep in mind, now we have 2 red rockets on our Baselight/Kompressor, but still, except for the speed or cost of red rockets, The raw workflow with editorial dailies has soo much to offer.

But Frankie, how exactly is that any different from what's done with Alexa ProRes footage? Other than the Rocket cards, of course...

 

[Frank Cueto]

No need to do this with Alexa as well as associated cost of providing dailies.


$10K for 2 RR vs $99 FCP LUT plugin from Light Illusions. LUT works in real time.

Both VERY valid points, But I like the fact that I can give my clients very efficient QT's that weigh very little and have some sort of grade to them. Some of them don't want to be bothered with the LUT thing (tsk, its simple, but W.). I also get to sneak in my burn ins which are super helpful in the conform stage. Its less data to copy over to a travel drive.

But I DO like to edit form the ALEXA on SMOKE and once thats done publish it out to the BL. Thats also a very simple approach. If I am keeping all of the post in-house it makes no difference to us workflow wise. Now, If ONLY I could convince the local rental house to get some form of arriraw recorder .

 

[M Most]

i hate the alexa avid workflow, i like the r3d red rocket avid workflow.
for a smooth alexa avid worklfow you need resolve + the dnxhd plug in for 500 usd.
redcine x is free. my 2 cents. the realtime transcoding power of the rocket is worth every single dollar.

Resolve Lite is free as well. And the Rocket card costs 10 times as much as that DNxHD plug in.

This entire thread has gone way off course, and I realize I've contributed to that. This was never supposed to be a "vs." anything, but like so many topics on RedUser it quickly devolved to that. So I for one am going to refrain from going any further in that direction.