What we need to convince more DPs on Dragon

[Robert Ruffo New]

#1: Getting them to test the camera. Dragon is a new sensor - so it's a GREAT opportunity to get DPs to test. To kick the tires and see the results themsleves. I believe the camera speaks for itself. It's alwasy eaiser for a DP to just choose the last tool he/she used - the tools "everyone else" is using.

#2: Marketing and Education should respect, and include, the talent that creates great images with RED. The ads in Amercian Cinematographer are a huge step in the right direction. I think that testimonial quotes from ASC members go a LONG way. They should spend the money on ads in The Hollywood Reporter as well - as the show runners and producers consume that magazine.

There are LOTS of people that have no clue that Matthew Libatique shot Pele on Dragon and loved the images. Personally, I love both Fincher and Soderbergh - as I think they are are both very special, monster talents that make amazing films - but .... EVERYONE knows that David and Steven shoot all of their films on RED and have for along time. They, along with Peter Jackson, have been RED's poster boys for a long time. And that speaks volumes - BUT ... it's not the message RED needs right now.

People have closed their minds. To open them - you need to send a "it's different now" message.

What will open minds IMO is hearing about highly respected cinematographers who have NOT been choosing RED - and NOW are choosing RED with Dragon.

#3: RED needs to quickly make a couple of awesome modules designed carefully for function - so everyone doesn't have to keep using "hacks" to get the camera to a config that makes the camera crew confident and efficient.

#4: RED needs to impliment CDL and 3D LUT support yesterday in the camera and RCX.

My 4 cents -

Hey Mark - awesome post. Could not agree more. I hope Jim and the powers that be read this.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I think some productions are better of with an alexa and shooting proress. I tried forcing RED on people and that usually do not land well. It usually works better when showing them good examples of what the red cameras ar capable of an then back that up with a solid workflow. So if I'm not doing post for the production and if there is no way to get a well equipped DIT or team that are used to RED then I usually stand back and let them go the Alexa route. Sometimes for those occasions I bring our epic to shoot "VFX plates" and usually those shots are enough to convince the director and even the DP to try out our Epic for their next shoot. But again then everything needs to be very smooth as usually the AC and the rest of the team are quite uncomfortable when they do not have the Alexa. Another sales point that I'm able to toss in is an extra camera head. Basically I give the an epic and a Scarlet or two epics for less than an alexa. Since we got good enough of accessories, batteries etc to rig two cameras the only difference for us is the price for a spear head. And when they get into having two 5k small modular cameras for less than the price of one big clumsy HD pro res camera they tend to want more of it. Again the DIT need to be able to handle the amount of files and we need to make sure that they have proxy files to edit from the morning after and so on. And also the epic can not show any sign of bugs or other mistakes, then they directly starts to talk about the Arri greatness and problems with RED. So basically among the camera crews the RED is the underdog, and not only that they see it as an underdog that has an attitude. Something we try to tiptoe around.

Also the talk about dynamic range, burned out highlights etc can be handled quite well when we send experienced people to set that can, in a nice way, explain for the DP how they should handle exposure and such. For some reason it seams like when they shoot alexa they are quite secure how to do it but when shooting with the epic they tend to do all kinds of odd exposures. Burning out for no reason or constantly heavily underexpose or a mix of the two. I do not know why it's so hard for some, even very experienced DP's to dial in a good histogram, but some of them for sure do not know how to do it. Many times I been screamed at for not having all our monitors on set color calibrated... which is very odd I think. As to me the color of the screens does not mean a thing. and when I explain that the camera works just like a film camera and what they see on the screen is only a vauge representation of whats actually captured (just as the video tap when shooting film) and they should rely on their light meter and the histogram... then some DP's actually gets it. If not I need to pul out a shot and show them the stuff graded towards where they want it. And some times make looks files. But convincing them to stick with a straight redcolor3 redgamma3 and trust their experience from shooting good old film is what usually tend to work the best.

So all in all it takes a bit of pushing and sales tactics. To me this has worked for most clients but then there are of course those that does not want to be bothered and that thinks, fan settings, Black shadings, different modules, transcodes, high resolution and all that is just a hassle and they are fine with the price they pay for Alexa and they they find the resolution to be enough and their camera department prefer the Alexa... well then there is not much to do.

But I find it quite interesting I work in all continents and during the last year I been on shots, in asia, africa, the states, europe and russia. And the trends are very identical all over for the type of work we do (normally comercials) basically everyone would use the alexa if I'm not stressing the need for RED. And if its not the alexa then it's an Epic and I have not seen any other brand of camera on any of the shoots I been on. The Sony any of the canon cameras I seen non of them.... not a single one. The only other brand that comes up is phantom but for high speed shots only. I find this quite odd. The F65 would be a great camera for many productions especially if you do not shoot that much material. And the canons would be great for night shoots and such but I never been to a commercial shoot where they actually used one, except for the BTS.

So as I see it RED is second choice for the advertising industry and Arri is number one. Maybe a huge leap of sensor improvements would change that. But I also think the modular system and the multi optional RED approach is not really suited for the rental industry. I love the system but I do not see the same enthusiasm among the camera crews that I work with, no matter where I go they push for Arri gear.

And to me it seams quite easy, I think red should not make matte boxes and such if they are not aiming to make the best possible mattebox on the market same for batteries rigs, wifi and everything else if it's not top spec then better to focus on the cameras themselves and most of all the sensors.

 

[Peter Moretti]

...
Also the talk about dynamic range, burned out highlights etc can be handled quite well when we send experienced people to set that can, in a nice way, explain for the DP how they should handle exposure and such. For some reason it seams like when they shoot alexa they are quite secure how to do it but when shooting with the epic they tend to do all kinds of odd exposures. Burning out for no reason or constantly heavily underexpose or a mix of the two. I do not know why it's so hard for some, even very experienced DP's to dial in a good histogram, but some of them for sure do not know how to do it. Many times I been screamed at for not having all our monitors on set color calibrated... which is very odd I think. As to me the color of the screens does not mean a thing. and when I explain that the camera works just like a film camera and what they see on the screen is only a vauge representation of whats actually captured (just as the video tap when shooting film) and they should rely on their light meter and the histogram... then some DP's actually gets it. If not I need to pul out a shot and show them the stuff graded towards where they want it. And some times make looks files. But convincing them to stick with a straight redcolor3 redgamma3 and trust their experience from shooting good old film is what usually tend to work the best.
...

I think the tendency to overexpose is a result of working with film where you generally want to overexpose to get a "thick negative." I imagine that moving away from that habit could be somewhat challenging. Perhaps those DP's feel more comfortable shooting with an Alexa, which seems to handle overexposure quite well.

So it could be perceived that Red has been saying "You need to learn a bit to get the best out of our equipment." While Arri is saying "We know how you shoot, and we made our camera system so you don't have to do anything differently."

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Aa you, Björn, I have had very good experience in simplifying the use of the Epic for film-photographers.
Fix you camerasettings, learn the keys in the image, and shoot. (exposure-tools are cool, but if you start seying the keys directly in the image, I and it seems a few others can get closer to where they want than with false colors et all, as that sometimes scares the exposure in all kind of different and unmotivated directions).

Daylight stock. Breaks when it breaks. Tests on how far it can be pushed. STick to that info for the look they have decided.

There is very little "magic" in digital cameras. Rather the opposite, they are scaringly predictable...
All of them, once you get familiar.

And when you learn how they respond, you can expose them for the results you want.

This seems harder to grasp for videographers, in my experience.

 

[James T Mather]

I own both - 2 Epics and an Alexa. The Alexa immediately gives a very pleasing image with deep shadows,smooth highlight roll off and nice tones - consistent with a film image in my experience. The Epic tends to produce a visibly MUCH darker image at the same (800) Asa than the Alexa looking at the same image looking at the same scene on a similar (T1.3) lens. The Epic's colors seem more imfused with a "gray" tone on the Red compared to the Alexa and lack a similar vibrancy (yes on red gamma). There is also a notable softness to the image on the Alexa - highlights faintly bloom. Flares look nicer on the Alexa - softer.

In all other respects the Epic is my preferred camera. It is smaller, lighter, discreeter, it is movi-friendly, it fits on lightweight sliders, it can do high frame rates and time lapse, it's PL mount is more forgiving of a wider range of PL glass than the Arri and it's cheaper. The only place the Arri has the edge is in terms of the picture it produces. I dislike the Arri's weight, dumb side menu, unwieldy size, battery consumption, requirement for "presets" in color balance and price.

Interestingly people here cite all kinds of reasons for the Alexa's popularity - old DP's can't learn new tricks etc, Arri loyalty etc. Simply put, the camera produces a very pleasing soft filmic image right out of the camera - right there on set - for everyone to see - with no dialogue about RAW and exposure and blah. And people wonder why DP's favour it.

To swing me over to dragon, I hope that the slightly present "TV" look I would associate with The Lincoln Lawyer or The Desolation of Smaug is pushed back in favour of a softer, more filmic look. More resolution? Meh. I actually prefer shooting Epic at 3k to try to de-digitalise it a bit.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The Alexa image gives a lot of confidence on set.
Totally agreed.
And confidence is good.

That is also very much the same thing I experience with the Dragon.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

But I also think the modular system and the multi optional RED approach is not really suited for the rental industry. I love the system but I do not see the same enthusiasm among the camera crews that I work with, no matter where I go they push for Arri gear.

"not really suited for the rental industry" is the current state of affairs based on what modules (and lack thereof) have been created to date. As a rental house that speaks to ACs, Operators and DPs almost every day about the pros and cons of shooting RED as well as working with the camera crews to outfit and configure Epic cameras for productions - I am PASSIONATELY CONVINCED that this aspect can do a hard 180 degrees turn with a couple of new modules - and make things much easier and more efficient for the camera department.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

"not really suited for the rental industry" is the current state of affairs based on what modules (and lack thereof) have been created to date. As a rental house that speaks to ACs, Operators and DPs almost every day about the pros and cons of shooting RED as well as working with the camera crews to outfit and configure Epic cameras for productions - I am PASSIONATELY CONVINCED that this aspect can do a hard 180 degrees turn with a couple of new modules - and make things much easier and more efficient for the camera department.

So do I.

I am also kinda stupid enough to think that it is not necessarily the hardest trick for red to pull off, compared to the things they have done.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

I still don't get why Meizler module was axed. Add couple more features and you'd have almost perfect "Studio" package, some kind of AiO solution similar to what made Alexa and upcoming Amira so desirable. If you need to strip it down to the basics for Movi or lightweight setup, just pull the quick release trigger. The alternative is to introduce completely new "Dragon Studio" camera body with all the bells and whistles from ACs (and TV productions) wishlist, easy to handle, stupid simple to get nice results fast out of the box. With the new sensor (which deserves all the attention) that AiO Dragon camera would be serious direct competitor to Arri's offerings in their own field. Modular design is cool and I actually prefer that to the "all and everything" tv camera concept, but rental houses all around the globe will be happy with the new RED too, I can see that.

 

[Phil Holland]

I still don't get why Meizler module was axed. Add couple more features and you'd have almost perfect "Studio" package

You might have answered your own question there. What we have known as the Meizler Module and Proxie Module have been axed. That doesn't mean something else isn't in the works.

 

[Scott Crawley]

But isn't the 3-axis lens control essentially the Meizler minus Proxies or are there other Meizler proposed features that are also missing? Pardon my memory, but was wireless video monitoring a proposed part of the original Meizler?

You might have answered your own question there. What we have known as the Meizler Module and Proxie Module have been axed. That doesn't mean something else isn't in the works.

Jarred did state that proxies were dead @ Red, no?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I could smell that upcoming new firmware with RED Dragon Colour Science 1 that should be released just before NAB 2014

will be something revolutionary and game changer in this very close race between Alexa and Red.

Again don't forget that during recent several weeks RED Epic MX cameras at US Box Office

have a great success with movies like a Ride Along, Lone Survivor and The Hobbit 2: The Desolation of Smaug!!!!

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

Also the Oscar-winning cinematographer Janusz Kaminski ASC,

has directed 11 original (very) short films shot on Epic MX for "The New York Times Magazine" Movie's Issue, November 25th, 2013.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/magazine/100000002564385/the-making-of-making-a-scene.html

Dragon is coming.

The invasion of Dragon will start just in time before NAB 2014 opening its doors in Las Vegas... !!!!!

 

[Bob Gundu]

But isn't the 3-axis lens control essentially the Meizler minus Proxies or are there other Meizler proposed features that are also missing? Pardon my memory, but was wireless video monitoring a proposed part of the original Meizler?



Jarred did state that proxies were dead @ Red, no?

Not really. He said the Proxy Module was dead. My hunch is that there are other ways to get proxys from your R3D's.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Not really. He said the Proxy Module was dead. My hunch is that there are other ways to get proxys from your R3D's.

Sure there are, but will Red manufacture one? I remember him saying the module is dead, but he went on to say that the existence of products like the Odyssey 7 etc. factored into their decision. It was as if he were saying Others are doing this fairly well, so we don't have to.

My take has been that Red is fundamentally opposed to the practice as it tends to negate some of their most valuable technology; redcode, and all of the control that it gives us.

 

[Freya]

But I find it quite interesting I work in all continents and during the last year I been on shots, in asia, africa, the states, europe and russia. And the trends are very identical all over for the type of work we do (normally comercials) basically everyone would use the alexa if I'm not stressing the need for RED. And if its not the alexa then it's an Epic and I have not seen any other brand of camera on any of the shoots I been on. The Sony any of the canon cameras I seen non of them.... not a single one. The only other brand that comes up is phantom but for high speed shots only. I find this quite odd. The F65 would be a great camera for many productions especially if you do not shoot that much material. And the canons would be great for night shoots and such but I never been to a commercial shoot where they actually used one, except for the BTS.

YES! I've mentioned this to a few people. It's one of the great achievements from Reds marketing. So often you hear people say that they are glad they are shooting on the Alexa and not Red. You never hear people say that they are glad they are shooting Alexa and not the Sony F65 or that they wish they were using Canon Cinema EOS or anything else for that matter. People seem to think of it as a two horse race.

Freya

 

[Freya]

In terms of marketing and RED being taken seriously, it would really help if there was more dragon footage kicking around that didn't feature women in their underwear or even less, or models pouting and doing silly movements.

It would help if a visit to RED Europe didn't feel like you were entering a teenage boys den....
( I note that a small cart at the Red stand the other day was decorated in the same silly camoflage gear. Hopefully left over after ripping it off the walls at pinewood. I asked someone there if it was supposed to be a dress for the little cart.)

It would also help if Red was more supportive of its friends in the industry and didn't go really out of its way to make enemies over pointless stuff.

It would help if those who were agnostic about Red weren't treated with contept.

Freya

 

[Gunleik Groven]

In terms of marketing and RED being taken seriously, it would really help if there was more dragon footage kicking around that didn't feature women in their underwear or even less, or models pouting and doing silly movements.

It would help if a visit to RED Europe didn't feel like you were entering a teenage boys den....
( I note that a small cart at the Red stand the other day was decorated in the same silly camoflage gear. Hopefully left over after ripping it off the walls at pinewood. I asked someone there if it was supposed to be a dress for the little cart.)

It would also help if Red was more supportive of its friends in the industry and didn't go really out of its way to make enemies over pointless stuff.

It would help if those who were agnostic about Red weren't treated with contept.

Freya

Hm... All this actually pretty well understood and received.
I guess I to some extent is guilty, but Espen doesn't really count in this context.

https://www.facebook.com/gunleik/media_set?set=a.10152064394400126.1073741852.715570125&type=3



Skintones HAS (and is) of some special interest vs other cameras, though.

I have quite a few "other" images on my list when I get mine back, and if memory serves me, I have released cityscapes (day/night) and a few other things as well.
Luigis images with some italian background.
Backyards with kids

etc.

It is not really that uniform, even though I can understand the sentiment.

As to your last two points... I really think it seems those days are over.

RED has stirred a lot of passion, both ways. RED has not been alone in creating that situation, but they have not always dissolved conflicts.

But there are a lot of things I see lately, that points in a different direction forward.

What kind of shots would you like to see?

I will gladly start a thread with Dragon test-images without skantily clad women!

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

In terms of marketing and RED being taken seriously, it would really help if there was more dragon footage kicking around that didn't feature women in their underwear or even less, or models pouting and doing silly movements.

It would help if a visit to RED Europe didn't feel like you were entering a teenage boys den....
( I note that a small cart at the Red stand the other day was decorated in the same silly camoflage gear. Hopefully left over after ripping it off the walls at pinewood. I asked someone there if it was supposed to be a dress for the little cart.)

It would also help if Red was more supportive of its friends in the industry and didn't go really out of its way to make enemies over pointless stuff.

It would help if those who were agnostic about Red weren't treated with contept.

Freya

I hear you Freya. I'll get flamed for this, but in the Arri booth at NAB, I was spoken to calmly, given facts, by someone soft spoken who did not use words like "RAD!" and "BITCHIN". In the Red booth that year, there were some people who looked like they lived in trailers out in the desert getting extreme tattoos, while inside it was all super-macho hype hype hype excitedly spouted out. It felt like a booth for Harley, which, whether or not you like motorcycles, feels inappropriate and not exactly trustworthy for a manufacturer of precision technical equipment which is what Red is. It comes off as a company that cuts corners and doesn't sweat too many details - who pays attention to loud shouts rather than the finer points - and then they release things that don't quite work, announce things that don't happen, etc. and it only compounds that initial bad impression, whereas if Arri did that it would not have the same impact - it would be much more easily forgiven.

The Red booth felt like something targeted at people of lower class, with little education, simple-minded enough to be distracted by a circus. I wonder if many DPs or producers consider themselves to be in that demographic, I know I don't. By contrast, the Arri booth was the PBS to Red's Fox News.

The $4K BTS cameras also did not help. There is now, more than ever before, some extremely crude and ugly work being shot on Red Ones, and it really cheapens the brand.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hm Rob...

I am sure I can dig up a lot of crappy Alexa images, if I want to...

Let us keep this constructive?

Neither RED nor Arri can take responsibility for the images their customers take...

High class/Low clas equations ring very badly in my ears... Really bad.

And still I am not uneducated...

Bashing the userbase is a bit oversimplified.
If you think what is released is not up to your standards, make your work more visible.

To me this post is along the lines that just stirr up unneccesarry and unproductive dust.

Besides the obvious offense... I was at IBC this year at REDs booth... I cannot say I recognize your description of how people were received.

here, too maybe

 

[Scott Crawley]

This would be a fascinating rat hole to go down on another thread.

No doubt we are well conditioned to embrace the whole German Engineering branding and nothing says rebel like a sleeve of tats. Both companies chose these personas deliberately, and one may be better suited to this market than the other due to the very biases you have put on display Robert. It's very interesting stuff.

I would be remiss however if I failed to mention that your portrayal of Harley types as uneducated and simple minded is offensive. I understand that as profiles go it may have been fairly efficient in the past but that is not so much the case these days.

I hear you Freya. I'll get flamed for this, but in the Arri booth at NAB, I was spoken to calmly, given facts, by someone soft spoken who did not use words like "RAD!" and "BITCHIN". In the Red booth that year, there were some people who looked like they lived in trailers out in the desert getting extreme tattoos, while inside it was all super-macho hype hype hype excitedly spouted out. It felt like a booth for Harley, which, whether or not you like motorcycles, feels inappropriate and not exactly trustworthy for a manufacturer of precision technical equipment which is what Red is. It comes off as a company that cuts corners and doesn't sweat too many details - who pays attention to loud shouts rather than the finer points - and then they release things that don't quite work, announce things that don't happen, etc. and it only compounds that initial bad impression, whereas if Arri did that it would not have the same impact - it would be much more easily forgiven.

The Red booth felt like something targeted at people of lower class, with little education, simple-minded enough to be distracted by a circus. I wonder if many DPs or producers consider themselves to be in that demographic, I know I don't. By contrast, the Arri booth was the PBS to Red's Fox News.

The $4K BTS cameras also did not help. There is now, more than ever before, some extremely crude and ugly work being shot on Red Ones, and it really cheapens the brand.