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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What we need to convince more DPs on Dragon

Freya said:
In terms of marketing and RED being taken seriously, it would really help if there was more dragon footage kicking around that didn't feature women in their underwear or even less, or models pouting and doing silly movements.

It would help if a visit to RED Europe didn't feel like you were entering a teenage boys den....
( I note that a small cart at the Red stand the other day was decorated in the same silly camoflage gear. Hopefully left over after ripping it off the walls at pinewood. I asked someone there if it was supposed to be a dress for the little cart.)

It would also help if Red was more supportive of its friends in the industry and didn't go really out of its way to make enemies over pointless stuff.

It would help if those who were agnostic about Red weren't treated with contept.

Freya
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Hey Freya, did we speak at BSC? The camo stuff always gives me a little chuckle, but I'd feel sad if RED's office was a beige cube like everywhere else. These are superficial things, and demo imagery is inherently superficial too. What counts is the people behind the camo netting (almost literally), and the science and tech behind the pictures...
 
Hiya Gunleik,

It wasn't about your work per-se but that most of the dragon footage people have posted is like this! (I assue you mean my comment on the dragon footage out there, rather than you came up with the design for the red offices!)

It's also not so much images as footage at this point in time. Although by now someone probably needs to come up with something quite different to make any impact as we are a ways from the dragon release now.

It's a shame because when RED released the pictures of the lizard before release, everyone was very excited. Everyone LOVED the lizard basically whether they were into RED products or hated them or loved the Alexa or loved film, everybody loved the lizard. It was great thinking because it fitted in with the usual red kind of marketing in a way but is was also kind of cute. Everybody loves a lizard. I was actually hoping there might be some lizard footage as well as the stills in fact!

At this point the dragon needs wow footage, and not the kind of footage that will make straight teenage boys go wow if you know what I mean! ;)

Freya
 
I don't think Robert is bashing anyone. He is pointing out a problem in perception that I agree with. Arri is perceived as professional and respected. Red comes across, whether true or not, as brash and unpredictable. That has a lot to do with the way they are seen by producers. And yes, the fact that there is a ton of terrible looking Red footage out there does not help. As I said before, the low price point means that there a lot of people making pictures with this camera that don't have an awful lot of experience in the professional world.

Nick
 
The point is valid but how the comments are received (as written) may vary in direct proportion with the number of tats one has. :-) He has created an undeniable context there... lots of colorful comparisons.

Nick Gardner said:
I don't think Robert is bashing anyone. He is pointing out a problem in perception that I agree with. Arri is perceived as professional and respected. Red comes across, whether true or not, as brash and unpredictable. That has a lot to do with the way they are seen by producers. And yes, the fact that there is a ton of terrible looking Red footage out there does not help. As I said before, the low price point means that there a lot of people making pictures with this camera that don't have an awful lot of experience in the professional world.

Nick
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Nick Gardner said:
I don't think Robert is bashing anyone. He is pointing out a problem in perception that I agree with. Arri is perceived as professional and respected. Red comes across, whether true or not, as brash and unpredictable. That has a lot to do with the way they are seen by producers. And yes, the fact that there is a ton of terrible looking Red footage out there does not help. As I said before, the low price point means that there a lot of people making pictures with this camera that don't have an awful lot of experience in the professional world.

Nick
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I understand this point.
And Freyas.

And I think there is some communicating differently in different situations that might come across as a good thing.

Appreciate what you say Nick!
 
Scott Crawley said:
I would be remiss however if I failed to mention that your portrayal of Harley types as uneducated and simple minded is offensive. I understand that as profiles go it may have been fairly efficient in the past but that is not so much the case these days.
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Oh yes , and there are the RUBs (Rich Urban Bikers) ;)
 
Scott Crawley said:
... and some brilliant tattooed kids at MIT

I don't mean to derail, so as Gump would say "That's all I have to say about that."
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Sorry the last one : I thought the "brilliant tattooed kids at MIT" would know better than riding a Harley in their brilliance (I worked for a cruiser bike magazine testing bikes for a while)
Sorry you walked right into this one bud;)
 
It's not about tattoo's. It's not about attitude. It's not about skin color.

I think for people bashing RED, It's about performance and workflow and money.

A bit of it is about laziness and unwillingness to change or explore new ways even though other offerings offer less performance but seem easier to use and work with overall.

Not everyone is comfortable with disruptive technology and that is exactly what RED is in the film business.

And being better is not really enough when you want to knock off a brand like ARRI who have, to this point, seemingly served the industry well. Their brand loyalty is also high and they serve their market segment well because they are not trying to put disruptive technology into the hands of the masses.


Me, im all for shaking things up!


Battistella
 
John Marchant said:
Hey Freya, did we speak at BSC? The camo stuff always gives me a little chuckle, but I'd feel sad if RED's office was a beige cube like everywhere else. These are superficial things, and demo imagery is inherently superficial too. What counts is the people behind the camo netting (almost literally), and the science and tech behind the pictures...
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heh heh! Yes it was me at the stand!

I do know what you mean! If you make an office all beige and boring then you can't send out the wrong message except that you are boring (which might even be useful in some situations!). However not all offices are like that. I'm out in trendy East London so offices are more likely to be very colourful out here.

It's ironic as I love a bit of sillyness myself and probably rub some people up the wrong way for exactly that reason and I think it would be fun if red had framed pictures of lizards in salvador dali style landscapes on the walls but the camo stuff just looks like a teenage boys den or possibly even some kind of military fixation which might be even worse!

It's easy to pass off the marketing as not being important and just being superficial stuff as you suggest, which is of course essentially true, but companies spend a lot of money on this stuff because they believe that people take in messages from these things and make decisions on them sadly.

Freya
 
Your point is taken but we can not escape the Psychology of the Marketing here. It IS at least in part about the attitude, and to speak to Jacek and Robert using Harley culture as an analogy, it is also about the passion. When you mix disruptive, aggressive and passionate the results can be explosive. Things can get pretty Red. People get banned... you see where I am headed with this I bet. The larger point is that it can turn sensitive people off, and I think it is fair to say that many or most creatives are sensitive in one way or another. It's a prerequisite, really.

Take Jim and Geoff for example. They are both passionate and brash. They didn't mix well. As objective and professional as I believe Geoff can be, I have to believe that their interaction, the collision of their attitudes, was not helpful to the Red cause.

It does not necessarily follow however that the approach will fail or is in any way flawed. Disruptive is what Red is, and the Marketing is the logical extension of that from their namesake color, to the naming of their products and goes all the way to the attitude. It is embedded in their culture. It is a unified design. As a creative I respond to that more than the occasional "fuck off", but I am accustomed to that too. ;-)

David Battistella said:
It's not about tattoo's. It's not about attitude. It's not about skin color.

I think for people bashing RED, It's about performance and workflow and money.

A bit of it is about laziness and unwillingness to change or explore new ways even though other offerings offer less performance but seem easier to use and work with overall.

Not everyone is comfortable with disruptive technology and that is exactly what RED is in the film business.

And being better is not really enough when you want to knock off a brand like ARRI who have, to this point, seemingly served the industry well. Their brand loyalty is also high and they serve their market segment well because they are not trying to put disruptive technology into the hands of the masses.


Battistella
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Gunleik Groven said:
Hm... All this actually pretty well understood and received.
I guess I to some extent is guilty, but Espen doesn't really count in this context. :)

1476212_10152064395735126_341797619_n.jpg


https://www.facebook.com/gunleik/media_set?set=a.10152064394400126.1073741852.715570125&type=3
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BTW I LOVE those shots! See that IS interesting and stands out as being quite different.
Makes me really curious what is in the basket there! lol!

Freya
 
BTW, I have had my encounters with ARRI marketing, and even though the wording is different, I would not say it was much more refined or gentle than REDs.
They insist they are. But I must say I find dancers and a gang of sweet girls who tries to bring men to the ARRI booth (IBC 2008) at least as tacky as any military references RED may bring in.

And the behind the scenes stuff I have seen Arri do... Softhanded is not the word that comes to mind.

But that is marketing. Both companies not only needs to have good products, but they need to sell their cameras in busloads. And they do.

Problem is that they get branded differently from pretty similar behavior.

One of the things I have liked about RED is that "everyone is welcome" from get-go.

Both of the companies have at times reacted a bit abrubt if they do not feel the love returned.
And actually I think most DPs see beyond that.
And just need to have tools they feel they can use.

The cultural thing is a bit of a hornets nest to dive into, whichever way you put it, and definitely has little meaning for me as to which camera I use.

But I know from experience that Arri can be a bit heavy-handed, too. If not on their boards and posters.

Which kinda makes sense.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I understand this point.
And Freyas.

And I think there is some communicating differently in different situations that might come across as a good thing.

Appreciate what you say Nick!
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Exactly!

Speaking of tatoos and bikers, that might actually make for something a bit different in demo footage if done right! ;)

I actually have had good experiences with the staff at Red Europe tho, friendly and helpful.

and like I say, nobody had any problem with the lizard which in some ways fitted in with the other stuff.

If you are just aiming your cameras at a niche audience that is fine and it's okay for the marketing to reflect that.
If you want to reach a greater diversity of people then it's worth thinking if you are pushing some people away with that marketing.

I only bring up this stuff because the thread is about reaching out to more people.
If you want to keep it in the club, then fine keep the den, you can even hang up as sign saying "no gurrlz allowed" etc but don't come complaining that you are only reaching a niche or that some people aren't taking you seriously when you think they should.

Freya
 
Freya said:

Exactly!

Speaking of tatoos and bikers, that might actually make for something a bit different in demo footage if done right! ;)

I actually have had good experiences with the staff at Red Europe tho, friendly and helpful.
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Fierce loyalty is part of the biker persona too. :-)
 
OK. Mission received... :)

If I have time, when I get my cam back, I will shoot some stuff.

But there is a point, though. None of us sharing stuff here, actually live from that.
It is past-times.

To give images production-value, you need a production.
And productions are usually under NDAs and not too happy about having stuff posted around the net. :)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
BTW, I have had my encounters with ARRI marketing, and even though the wording is different, I would not say it was much more refined or gentle than REDs.
They insist they are. But I must say I find dancers and a gang of sweet girls who tries to bring men to the ARRI booth (IBC 2008) at least as tacky as any military references RED may bring in.
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Yes! At BVE a couple of years ago now, there was a stand where a camera company (Olympus?) had a model step into a transparent plastic tube where they fired ping pong balls at her at high speed. I'm not sure what they had in mind but it was pretty horrible. The stand was right next to the entrance to the seminar space so that as people were queuing to get into the seminars you could hear the comments from passing women on seeing this sight and I'm sure you can imagine the kind of things they said.

No doubt that company will be having to make special pink cameras at some point in the future in order to say "hey it's okay for women to buy our cameras too!" ;)

Freya
 
I have to say the cleanroom at last year's NAB showing Dragons being made feels like a bit of an embarrassment in retrospect.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
OK. Mission received... :)

If I have time, when I get my cam back, I will shoot some stuff.

But there is a point, though. None of us sharing stuff here, actually live from that.
It is past-times.

To give images production-value, you need a production.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of people able to get models to work for free then it would seem! ;)

You do have a point tho, that perhaps Red should be funding some interesting footage to demo their cameras rather than waiting for it to arrive for free.

Sadly for the time being Red have missed the bus on this one as the dragon is not news anymore. The new filter and colour science might be news tho, so I suggest people come up with different and interesting things to shoot when that arrives, even if they are squirrels and hedgehogs.

Freya
 
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