What colour Grading system should I upgrade to?

[Adam Eden]

That's not really an apples to apples comparison because Scratch and Resolve are two very different things. Resolve is a color grader. It's not a creative conforming tool, nor does it do things like titling, formatting, and multiple output formats very efficiently. Scratch is primarily a media management tool, not a color grader, although it can do that. What it excels at is conforming, media management, organization, editorial revisions - all of the things that Resolve is not particularly good at because it's not made for that.

Personally, if retaining all keyframes and information from Avid created effects is not a primary concern (which it is in US based long form television work), I would consider a combination of Scratch and Resolve, which isn't really going to cost much more than Scratch alone. And with Assimilate releasing a Mac version, they can likely run on the same box without any real conflicts. You could consider using the $5K Scratch Lab version if your grading is going to be done on Resolve, lowering the cost considerably for what would amount to something of a poor mans hero box, with really good tools at both ends of the process. You could even have a copy of Media Composer on the same box for list conversions, effects rendering, and editorial confirmation.

Thanks Mike, that sounds like a good plan and I will have a look at that. I am still surprised that not one person popped and and mentioned IRIDAS, There speed grade on set looks amazing for performing looks on set that can be transferred to post very easily.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Because I personally wouldn't want to use Smoke for any kind of extensive grading. It is possible and people use it quite a bit, but even now with Euphonics panel support it is still not even close to what real professional color grading system, like Lustre can do.
FCPX is an editing app, reagrdless of what Apple decides to include in it. Smoke is a true compositing system, capable of working in true 3D space, that can also edit, color grade, volumetric relight, roto, audio and the list goes on and on...

OK then, I'm already sort of unsold on Smoke based on what you said here and its price.

So, I'm thinking of an NLE (FCP X or Avid MC) + Nuke + Resolve.

For input, I'm thinking of Euphonics panels. Avid is opening up MC for i/o, but I frankly don't like Avid tools. (I'm not starting an FCP vs Avid war ... its a non technical opinion, and I'm entitled to it.) I guess I'm leaning towards staying with FCP for my NLE because then all the software plays with the BMD Decklink 3D. I suppose I can consider Premiere Pro CS 5.5

All of that together (including panels!) comes in at about half the price of Smoke.

Resolve keeps getting brought up as a grading solution, and Robbie Carman and Alexis van Hurkman keep talking up Resolve 8's roundtripping with FCP 6,7 and X.

Nuke seems to be the inheritor of the Shake legacy, and I REALLY like Shake.

I think that setup will work for all my in house stuff, and most of my freelance work (which mostly gets dumped on my desk and becomes "in house.")

I think that arrangement is missing a conform tool, asset management and end to end color management. Smoke can't do any of that for me anyway.

Am I missing something?

 

[jake blackstone]

Resolve keeps getting brought up as a grading solution, and Robbie Carman and Alexis van Hurkman keep talking up Resolve 8's roundtripping with FCP 6,7 and X.

How? FCPX isn't even close to being released...

I think that arrangement is missing a conform tool, asset management and end to end color management. Smoke can't do any of that for me anyway.

Am I missing something?

Yes you are. Smoke is perfectly capable of conforming with standard EDL, multiple layered XML and AAF and has standard editing capabilities, very similar to any editor, like FCP. It supports standard Lustre LUTs and you can create your own inside of application, if you wish. Do not discount power of Smoke. It's incredibly powerful and more flexible, than any competing packages. It will even allow you to switch to your standard FCP shortcuts to make the transition from FCP easier.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Or do like we did, Offline on FCP/AVID, grade on Baselight and conform on SMOKE, even better if your smoke is the ADVANCED one

We are a happy facility.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

How? FCPX isn't even close to being released...

Do you have some insight Jake? I thought Apple announced it would be available in June at NAB? Am I mistaken?

Yes you are (missing something). Smoke is perfectly capable of conforming with standard EDL, multiple layered XML and AAF and has standard editing capabilities, very similar to any editor, like FCP. It supports standard Lustre LUTs and you can create your own inside of application, if you wish. Do not discount power of Smoke. It's incredibly powerful and more flexible, than any competing packages. It will even allow you to switch to your standard FCP shortcuts to make the transition from FCP easier.

Hmmm ... clearly I'll have to try it myself, but right now I'm getting a lot from this conversation. I don't think the trial period is very long, and I'll need to focus my attention at the key points. You and Frank are really helping me.

Smoke is a good NLE and conform tool ... but I understand from here that its primarily a compositing application.

Smoke needs a grading tool - and Lustre seems to be the one to use if you are in Autodesk-land. I see that Baselight and Resolve can work - but the main point is that you are into a color application on top of Smoke. Is that right?

If I choose Resolve for grading with Smoke (as I'm likely to do) ... then I need at least two workstations. (Smoke needs AJA i/o cards, Resolve wants BMD i/o cards) Is that right?

So, compared to my "plan" Smoke can replace FCP and Nuke. I get the impression that you guys think Smoke is a vastly better solution than that combination of software.

The ten thousand dollar question: What can I expect to gain compared to the FCP+Nuke combination if I choose Smoke for my extra $10000 in software licensing?

 

[M Most]

Smoke is a good NLE and conform tool ... but I understand from here that its primarily a compositing application.

That is not really the case. Smoke is a finishing application. It is primarily an editor, but it happens to have an awful lot of compositing/VFX functionality built in - because, well, it's a finishing application.

Smoke needs a grading tool - and Lustre seems to be the one to use if you are in Autodesk-land. I see that Baselight and Resolve can work - but the main point is that you are into a color application on top of Smoke. Is that right?

No, not necessarily. Smoke has both a color corrector and the Colour Warper, both of which are more than capable color environments. They are clunky to use for longform work because they are essentially shot based, but a lot of people do all of their grading in Smoke and never look back. Others prefer to be in a dedicated grading environment, like Lustre, for that purpose. It's up to you, but to say you absolutely must have a separate application is not really true.

The ten thousand dollar question: What can I expect to gain compared to the FCP+Nuke combination if I choose Smoke for my extra $10000 in software licensing?

Speed. Efficiency. The ability to do high end effects directly in the timeline if you wish. The ability to pull a shot out of the timeline, go into a dedicated 3D compositing environment, and after rendering the shot drop it right back into the timeline and play it in context without having to even think about exchange formats. Advanced titling and animation capabilities. Stereoscopic editing and VFX capabilities that are second to none. An environment that is familiar and fast enough to work in a client session without pain, embarrassment, or explanation. A fluid workflow that has to be learned and experienced to be appreciated, but once understood, becomes a part of you. Plus other stuff.

If that's not worth the additional cost to you, that's fine. But for many, if not most, people who work in client environments, the Autodesk products are well worth the price.

 

[Adam Eden]

OK. I have looked again at SMOKE, Scratch and Resolve. I am about to look at CLIPSTER And Magistka this week.

But I had to share this with you all today.

All suppliers asked my what the source material would be and I said mainly RED MX, EPIC or maybe ALEXA but at this stage there are 3 features I need to finish and they will all be shot on RED of some sort. This is the response from a couple of people in Australia. (NOT YOU EM!)

Why worry about 3K, 4K or what ever source resolution. Worry about dynamic range and colour bit depth and a XYZ workflow as even though RED had a higher resolution, ARRI RAW has a much higher dynamic range.

I don't understand how resolution isn't important when choosing a format. That doesn't make sense to me, and Jim and Graham have posted charts of the dynamic range of RED compared to ARRI and RED was the clear winner.

Is Arri 16bit? What is RED is that 8bit or 10bit or what? If ARRI RAW is 16bit then that would make sense that is has more dynamic range.

All very confusing as I need a DCI/ DI workflow with AVID . Clipster seems to be the best value for money box so far, but I would need resolve. Magika is a fortune but apparently better than PABLO. I haven't seen either yet, but i can't afford $300K if thats what they are worth.

So what I have learnt so far is that I need a system that makes 16bit EXR files as that is the best way to make a DCP.. Hopefully that is correct or someone here can correct me.

 

[M Most]

All suppliers asked my what the source material would be and I said mainly RED MX, EPIC or maybe ALEXA but at this stage there are 3 features I need to finish and they will all be shot on RED of some sort. This is the response from a couple of people in Australia. (NOT YOU EM!)

Why worry about 3K, 4K or what ever source resolution. Worry about dynamic range and colour bit depth and a XYZ workflow as even though RED had a higher resolution, ARRI RAW has a much higher dynamic range.

I don't understand how resolution isn't important when choosing a format. That doesn't make sense to me, and Jim and Graham have posted charts of the dynamic range of RED compared to ARRI and RED was the clear winner.

What I don't understand is why a post systems vendor would be trying to tell you what camera to use.

So what I have learnt so far is that I need a system that makes 16bit EXR files as that is the best way to make a DCP.. Hopefully that is correct or someone here can correct me.

I don't know where you learned that. The DCI specification, at least at the moment, calls for 12 bit TIFF files in X'Y'Z' colorspace for the DCDM, from which the DCP is made. The vast majority of DCP's - i.e., almost all of the ones you see in a theater - are sourced from DPX files, certainly all of the ones made from film are. The ones made from digital source are often generated from DPX's as well, although that can vary depending on the source media and the post path. More bit depth is nice, but there is a point of diminishing returns, and the fact is that the current DCP is a 12 bit linear delivery system. Going the EXR route adds a lot of storage requirements and results in very limited throughput, as very few systems can play EXR's in real time. So if you want to do that, you certainly can. But if you think the DCP's are going to noticeably benefit from it, I would question that assumption.

 

[Troy Smith]

Just watched the demos at the autodesk site about smoke, it seemed it couldn't play r3d's in realtime,
does anyone know if it can perform with r3d's like scratch can?

 

[M Most]

Just watched the demos at the autodesk site about smoke, it seemed it couldn't play r3d's in realtime,
does anyone know if it can perform with r3d's like scratch can?

The way Smoke works is quite different than almost all of the other systems that have been mentioned. Smoke, as with all Autodesk products, basically works by rendering everything to DPX files on its own framestore, regardless of how they start out. It does this differently depending on how you work, so sometimes what it's doing is a bit hidden. With Red files, for instance, you can access and play them in real time at 1/4 resolution immediately, but when you import them, Smoke begins rendering them to DPX as a background task. Whether it does this immediately or not depends on whether you select local copying, but any timelines you create that have those files in them cannot be played out or exported without doing an uncompressed DPX render. Autodesk is very smart in making all of that a background task, because what that allows is for you to do the "low res" live viewing at the same time that the rendering is happening. This allows you to do the basic conform steps in the foreground, and have the renders going on in the background, reducing the time needed at the end of the process for exporting or playing out.

So the answer to your basic question is no, it doesn't "perform" the same as Scratch. But then again, it has a considerably different tool set and, to a great degree, a considerably different purpose.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Does anyone have experience with IFX Piranha or Ant? It seems like a good alternative.


Dusty

 

[Adam Eden]

Had a look at Clipster this week. Very good and easy to use. Makes and plays back encoded DCP files better than anything i have seen yet.

However. Grading sux! Smoke definately isn't a solution. Too messy from AVID.

Mistika demo coming next week.

 

[shashbugu]

We all wish there was a one stop solution, but unfortunately there isn't. Not because the tools don't exist but mainly because we all shine at a few things. I am not sure why you would leave Avid to try editing on a Smoke machine. Smoke is the most affordable finishing tool out there. At least smoke on the Mac is. It uses the same of the shelf cards Avid MC uses, so does Resolve. You want to finnish in 4k, not edit in 4k. If you want to edit in 4k well there's always Premiere pro CS5.5, it works well with, resolve, Scratch, Smoke, Nuke etc. Working with R3D files is easier now than it ever has been. Forget Flame premium, Mistika, Pablo, IFX etc if you can't learn Avid DS.

 

[Troy Smith]

Cool that make sense.

QUOTE=M Most;772751]The way Smoke works is quite different than almost all of the other systems that have been mentioned. Smoke, as with all Autodesk products, basically works by rendering everything to DPX files on its own framestore, regardless of how they start out. It does this differently depending on how you work, so sometimes what it's doing is a bit hidden. With Red files, for instance, you can access and play them in real time at 1/4 resolution immediately, but when you import them, Smoke begins rendering them to DPX as a background task. Whether it does this immediately or not depends on whether you select local copying, but any timelines you create that have those files in them cannot be played out or exported without doing an uncompressed DPX render. Autodesk is very smart in making all of that a background task, because what that allows is for you to do the "low res" live viewing at the same time that the rendering is happening. This allows you to do the basic conform steps in the foreground, and have the renders going on in the background, reducing the time needed at the end of the process for exporting or playing out.

So the answer to your basic question is no, it doesn't "perform" the same as Scratch. But then again, it has a considerably different tool set and, to a great degree, a considerably different purpose.[/QUOTE]

 

[Adam Eden]

We would never leave AVID as this is our main workflow.

I would be happy if I could pan and scan RED files in AVID but I am stuck at 1080p.

Re Forget Flame premium, Mistika, Pablo, IFX etc if you can't learn Avid DS. There are NO AVID DS operators in Sydney, a few in Melbourne. I don't want Flame or Pablo. I just need a good finishing tool.
Avid Symphony blows away SMOKE at many things and is the industry standard for finishing television programs over here.

SMOKE is a lot better than Symphony for TV promo's, and effects based work.

I am running DS Version 10.4, so I am going to have another look at upgrading it again, and maybe get some of my staff properly trained. But it still doesn't have power windows or anything similar like Resolve.

At this stage I am thinking to stick to my Symphony DX, add a Resolve 8 on a grunty Mac with red rocket, cuda cards etc. And then finishing in 4K on something new.

80% of my work is making TV spots and the odd music video. 15% is onlining and finishing TV programs and 5% feature work that ends up on HDCAM SR currently. So for the 5% I am finding it hard to spending $120K on making DCP's for people.

A few years back I spent $150K + for another Avid Symphony DX and then 6 months later they re- released it for $40K turnkey! I don't want to repeat that!

 

[shashbugu]

We would never leave AVID as this is our main workflow.

I would be happy if I could pan and scan RED files in AVID but I am stuck at 1080p.

Re Forget Flame premium, Mistika, Pablo, IFX etc if you can't learn Avid DS. There are NO AVID DS operators in Sydney, a few in Melbourne. I don't want Flame or Pablo. I just need a good finishing tool.
Avid Symphony blows away SMOKE at many things and is the industry standard for finishing television programs over here.

SMOKE is a lot better than Symphony for TV promo's, and effects based work.

I am running DS Version 10.4, so I am going to have another look at upgrading it again, and maybe get some of my staff properly trained. But it still doesn't have power windows or anything similar like Resolve.

At this stage I am thinking to stick to my Symphony DX, add a Resolve 8 on a grunty Mac with red rocket, cuda cards etc. And then finishing in 4K on something new.

80% of my work is making TV spots and the odd music video. 15% is onlining and finishing TV programs and 5% feature work that ends up on HDCAM SR currently. So for the 5% I am finding it hard to spending $120K on making DCP's for people.

A few years back I spent $150K + for another Avid Symphony DX and then 6 months later they re- released it for $40K turnkey! I don't want to repeat that!

You are on the right path. Try them all and visit facilities and professionals that use them. Good luck.

 

[Alex MacLean]

Flame Premium and easyDCP

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

One interesting "one app compositing grading solution" may become available fairly soon, although this is pure speculation on my part, but it's very exciting possibility nevertheless. I'm talking about NUKE+Baselight combination. BL is a NUKE plugin, that FL announced not long time ago. There are no details as of now, but if it's anything, like BL plugin for FCP, it may be interesting. It wouldn't be nowhere near as good, as Flame-Lustre combo, but it would be better, than CC and CW inside Flame or Smoke. Regardless, this combination will not be capable of 4k real time, but most people don't need it anyway. Just a thought...

No Timeline, No XML/EDL/OMF support, Terrible playback caching so you'll never see anything RT, No conform tools, limited video formats... I could go on but in essence it would be near the bottom of my list of apps for grading and conforming. And I love Nuke. I loathe AE but it would be much better suited. No Timeline, No Go.

I'm going to look into a NLE -> Resolve -> Nuke -> Resolve pipeline later this year but I wouldn't want to grade in it without the ability to see it in context of the edit.

 

[jake blackstone]

No Timeline, No XML/EDL/OMF support, Terrible playback caching so you'll never see anything RT, No conform tools, limited video formats... I could go on but in essence it would be near the bottom of my list of apps for grading and conforming. And I love Nuke. I loathe AE but it would be much better suited. No Timeline, No Go.

I'm going to look into a NLE -> Resolve -> Nuke -> Resolve pipeline later this year but I wouldn't want to grade in it without the ability to see it in context of the edit.

We were discussing compositing/grading combo, not finishing app.
As far as finishing combo, I just heard, that Autodesk is finishing a brand new grading portion of the Smoke and Flame, replacing CC and CW with reworked Lustre. Couple of months from now there will be no more Lustre. It's discontinued. But new Smoke and Flame would be THE finishing app. May be out by IBC. I'm salivating at the thought...

 

[Dermot Shane]

I am running DS Version 10.4, so I am going to have another look at upgrading it again, and maybe get some of my staff properly trained. But it still doesn't have power windows or anything similar like Resolve.

Adam;

DS has power windows and node inside the CC layout;
make a base grade
right click, select "effect to tree"
click on the red tree effect that the CC effect turned into
click on expand
your base grade is now in a tree with output node
Go crazy with the nodes, everything DS has is there.
Depending upon what you do, and how much horsepower you have - performance with a couple of cc nodes, feeding keys and masks are RT on my system in DCI2K, more performance on tap if i chose to run with GL mode and bypass the AJA output card, but i do love my scopes too much to give them up.

Today i'm checking a last pass through a feature that i just finish gradeing, more than 2/3rd of the timeline has tree effects in place of the base grade

Both the DP & the producer were commenting on how fast the sessions went

Ta,

d