Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What colour Grading system should I upgrade to?

Alexander Ibrahim said:
Of course the point of Smoke is to satisfy all my post needs without switching applications - I don't know if it really can.
Click to expand...

Jake ist right. It can do almost anything you can imagine to accomplish in an NLE and more.

Currently I'm working on a project that has tons of animated split screens, 2D animations in a 3D space, colour grading, stabilizing, green screen compositions, sky replacements, re-liggting, de-noise and re-edits with all those VFX including logo exchanges and whatnot. Last but not least Smoke is very good at sound, has OMF IO and good sound FX tools that are better than in any other NLE.

Smoke is very quick once you master it. But it will take a year and many projects to learn it more or less thoroughly, and a well grounded editor/filmmaker not to become desperate. But that does apply to all other mentioned tools in this thread as well. Smoke may be a special case regarding the target group: it's an NLE, an conforming tool, an VFX tool, has serious grading possibilities, etc... The ideal Smoke operator is an editor, colourist and VFX specialist. Hard to find.

I'm loving it and won't look back.

Hans
 
Adam Eden said:
In July this year we have a small version of NAB called SMPTE. Ill have a look at all of these things. (Well i hope they are there!).

My first Avid Symphony was $200K now they are new at around $30K I believe. I can't justify $300K so I might have to wait and see what drops in price.

I have been finishing on SR for a long time now and it holds up great on the silver screen. But that is some serious investment!
Click to expand...

Adam,

Avid has mentioned that the most recent releases of Sympony and MC are the last 32-bit versions. I strongly suspect that 64-bits will make it a lot more practical for Symphony and MC to handle 4K. So you might be getting your wish.


P.S. As for your DS that is gathering dust. I have a non-profit production company here in the US. If you ever consider donating your DS, PLEASE let me know.
 
Peter Moretti said:
Adam,

Avid has mentioned that the most recent releases of Sympony and MC are the last 32-bit versions. I strongly suspect that 64-bits will make it a lot more practical for Symphony and MC to handle 4K. So you might be getting your wish.


P.S. As for your DS that is gathering dust. I have a non-profit production company here in the US. If you ever consider donating your DS, PLEASE let me know.
Click to expand...

Hi Peter

I am trying to use it as a cross grade to something else at the moment as i did pay $180K for it a few years ago. But if that doesn't pan out, Ill let you know as apparently it isn't worth a tenth of that now! What does your non-profit company do? And you do realise it would cost a few thousand to get it to you as I am in Australia.
 
Adam,

I'll send you a PM. Thanks.
 
Hey guys...

I have been researching a fair bit today and by far IRIDAS Speed grade NX2011 combined with Frame Cycler DDS 2011 looks like a great solution for under $30K for software, and about that again for hardware.

Seems very good value for money compared to Lustre, Scratch and Baselight.. And there are a heap of current feature films working on IRIDAS..

Is there anyone on this forum verse in the package that can comment?

What I like is Speed grade on set so you can work the the r3d files on a shoot/set and save those looks and use them directly in the conform/grade stage. But from what I can find on the net and knowing that DELUXE in Australia use the same system as their final grade/conform seem re assuring to me. Especially at the under 100K mark.
 
Adam,

This is a completely out-of-the-box answer, but if cost is an issue, you might actually consider Premiere Pro. CS5.5 will now handle Epic files and export DPX. With the addition of plug-ins like Sapphire and Colorista II, you actually get a viable desktop grading environment within an NLE. I haven't tested this in a custom-designed station, but on the casual level, at least native 4K is pretty decent for a desktop system. Of course, you add AE into the mix as needed.

Quite frankly, several instances of Colorista II on a clip will already be more grading power than you have in Symphony. What you don't have is a true grading workflow, like in Symphony's color correction mode. Clearly Quantel, Resolve, IRIDAS or Flame Premium are better answers, but if you want to start testing the 4K waters without breaking the bank, then PPro CS5.5 *may* be an option.

For grins, here's one of Jarred's NY Epic fashion stills graded in PPro CS5.5 using several Sapphire plug-ins on top of a RedColor2/RedLogFilm setting.

- Oliver
 

Attachments

  • Effects appied in sequence.jpg
    Effects appied in sequence.jpg
    19.9 KB · Views: 0
jake blackstone said:
Yes it can:) But get ready for HUGE learning curve.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input ... I value it. I'm seriously questioning it.

I mean ... why do Flame and Lustre exist if Smoke can really do it all? I don't know if my needs fit inside the Smoke box, or if I'll be picking up the other tools too, which makes it an untenable solution. Smoke alone would be on the edge of a budget breaker.

I've definitely outgrown FCP 6, Color 1, Shake+Motion/AE and Soundtrack Pro. Those tools stop me from doing some of what I want.

So, will Smoke definitely do more than FCP , Resolve (or a new Color!), Nuke and Logic? I know it will cost more than licenses for all of that. Will it be easier than learning (or re-learning) that combination of software?

The wildcard of course is FCP X and associated programs. Very few, if any, of us know enough the upcoming software and its too imminent to make big decisions. Unless you really need a new solution in place NOW as opposed to in 30 days I'd be waiting.

When I'm done with my current project, I'll grab a copy of the Smoke and Nuke trials and Resolve Lite. I'll almost certainly buy FCP X and associated apps. I'll need them for compatibility/interchange if nothing else.
 
Hi, Resolve 8.0 and your Avid will round trip considerable better than our current 7.1.2. The multiple layer operation also allows titles etc from other applications to be added to the graded shots. Future Reality in Australia can assist you with that, and integration if you like. Resolve does read r3d natively, including Epic and HDRx, gives your r3d decoding controls right on the panels and is used as the finishing system for a large number of feature films, Transformers and Pirates are current examples.

The 4K r3d can be decoded by the Rocket at half res premium on the MacPro and Resolve can then render full 4K if you need for the film release. EFilm in Sydney have Resolve and do just that.

4K playback and display will feature in a later release when we start shipping the DeckLink 4K card. Hardware configurations are still in QA and we are working on Linux first as there are new GPU's we are exploiting for greater performance for the multitrack and real time noise reduction.

Peter
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Thanks for the input ... I value it. I'm seriously questioning it.

I mean ... why do Flame and Lustre exist if Smoke can really do it all? \.
Click to expand...

Because I personally wouldn't want to use Smoke for any kind of extensive grading. It is possible and people use it quite a bit, but even now with Euphonics panel support it is still not even close to what real professional color grading system, like Lustre can do.
FCPX is an editing app, reagrdless of what Apple decides to include in it. Smoke is a true compositing system, capable of working in true 3D space, that can also edit, color grade, volumetric relight, roto, audio and the list goes on and on...
 
No one here can comment about Iridas?

From what I gather Scratch is the most popular for RED workflow, Conform and Grading.
 
Whatever software you use one major aspect of a greate result is how you SEE images and how you CONVERT them in the vatius delivery systems available, like DCP, sRGB, REC709, Film ect. Aditionally of the SEE factor is connected to the WORKFLOW factor... A Log workflow ensures the best color grading result, since log is pushing grading to happen in a certain aestetic result that closly resembles film.

We have found out that all is depending in these simple things. The CONVERT factor is closly related to the SEE factor...

What we typically teach and assist our clients to do is (if we talking about features) to grade for a real film target and then use different custom conversion 3D Lut's to deliver to all media deliverables.

So grade once and deliver to many.

All that with a closely calibrated display environment.

As I see it, the software (as long as it uses LUT's) is almost irrelevant, since most of them are very good...

For more info click below...
 
Hi Evangelos

I currently work in the 4:2:2 space or 4:4:4 space, so I don't use LUT's as all of my stuff todate ends up on HDCAM SR. I work with a Sony Grade 1 broadcast monitor and a Tektronix WVM 7000 series scope.

In my world of TV I do work in LOG for my RED workflow (CAMERA RGD/REDLOGFILM) i even use Steve Shaw's gamma curves on my PDW-F800 and also the 5d and 7d I own and my workflow to HDCAM SR is awesome.

When the work I conform/grade and finish on an AVID SYMPHONY DX and output to SR at 4:4:4 it always looks amazing in the cinema when it is laser scanned back to film at DELUXE. I have been working this way for years as my scopes do not lie and thats what I primarily rely on.

This DI and DCP or whatever it is called isn't relatively new to me but I do need to understand and learn the DI workflow, as I am starting to get requests to finish at 4k for distribution.
I wish someone made a HDCAM SR at 4K as I still feel there is nothing like having a piece of video tape or something tangible as a master, but alas this isn't the case and I need a system that can fully integrate with my current AVID systems and work with my AVID/ISIS media engine and my AVID's.

From my own research SCRATCH seems to coming on top.

I need one "HERO" box that can conform, grade and output to SOMETHING that is distributable. I also want a system that I can pan and scan around 4K and finish at 2k, because at the moment we finish at 1080p and everytime I need to zoom in on a RED 4k file I need to do it in REDCINE X or render out a 4K MOV and pan and zoom in AFTER FX before ingesting again in AVID.
 
This SR workflow is common, it delivers fair results and in the DI world is called "poor mans DI"... no offense but this is how was marketed by e-films and others some time ago...

The big differences is that your monitor is just a window in a "view". The size of the window depends on the display used. Typically the film projection is a huge window compared to video grade 1 monitor. The "view" originally is huge, if its log its about 14bits or more and its only limited by your window (monitor, SR video). By grading in log and then printing on tape in video space you are actually cutting a portion of this view and you transfer it to film or deliverable.

If instead, you work with a LUT to see through your monitor, then is like you wearing correction glasses to see through your window the whole view, then by delivering to film out facility with out the LUT (raw log files) you are actually printing on film the whole view not just a portion of it...

That difference is big enough to differentiate the "poor mans DI" with a Hollywood grade DI...

So the trick is to grade aiming to the biggest format, without limiting the "view" and then use specific conversion LUT's to deliver to other "limited" formats...

Today we are in a position that we are able with 1/6 of the cost of the SR deck to do High End DI in the *same* level like DELUXE does it when you go there and pay 100K$... with our services what is the barier between what we do with all these poor mans workflows and what DELUXE does is just 1.5K$...
 
So what do you suggest then? If i am looking at conforming and grading features from RED files and AVID what should I buy? I wish to finish on DPX or JPEG 2000 for 4k, HDCAM SR 4:4:4, HDCAM, Blu ray/ DVD.
And as you say I don't want to grade separately. So will SCRATCH then take an OMF2, or something from the AVID, Link to the original R3d files, take in any special FX made in Whatever on DPX, allow me to perform both an individual and overall grade and FINISH! I don't want to have to go to anybody else to make deliverables.

I still need to get my head around Lut's as I understand they are look up tables but I need to find out more.. And I am sure many people on the REDUSER forum agree that this is a whole new ball game.

I mainly make TV commercials and music videos, but I am getting more and more inquires for me to go the whole hog for Indie style features. I have had many years of experience in Online and conform, especially for finishing and delivering television features and tv programs. I am just trying to learn more about feature films. IE Cinema release in the highest res possible.

I personally still think SR is more than fine, but if I don't upgrade and go down this new path, I think I will be left behind so any help or advice people can give me here is much appreciated.
 
WOW Evangelos, I was just reading info on your site and there is a lot to take in.

Once I figure out what I actually need in the way of a "Hero box" i will contact you.

Thanks

Adam
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
Scratch is good... but too much money... DaVinci is more bang for the bucks... Avid to DaVinci though I don't know, with a little search will be good...
Click to expand...

Scratch price went down at Nab to around 17K and there will be a Mac version with the same price....
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
Scratch is good... but too much money... DaVinci is more bang for the bucks... Avid to DaVinci though I don't know, with a little search will be good...
Click to expand...

That's not really an apples to apples comparison because Scratch and Resolve are two very different things. Resolve is a color grader. It's not a creative conforming tool, nor does it do things like titling, formatting, and multiple output formats very efficiently. Scratch is primarily a media management tool, not a color grader, although it can do that. What it excels at is conforming, media management, organization, editorial revisions - all of the things that Resolve is not particularly good at because it's not made for that.

Personally, if retaining all keyframes and information from Avid created effects is not a primary concern (which it is in US based long form television work), I would consider a combination of Scratch and Resolve, which isn't really going to cost much more than Scratch alone. And with Assimilate releasing a Mac version, they can likely run on the same box without any real conflicts. You could consider using the $5K Scratch Lab version if your grading is going to be done on Resolve, lowering the cost considerably for what would amount to something of a poor mans hero box, with really good tools at both ends of the process. You could even have a copy of Media Composer on the same box for list conversions, effects rendering, and editorial confirmation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top