Weapon worth it? Poll time

[Jim Harmon]

I finally got the money to buy an Epic about 8 months ago so I guess it's my bad for being poor, but now I'm being boxed out by Red's upgrade plan. Something tells me my $9,500 (oh wait, $12,500!) will still be good six months or even a year from now. But wait, that's just to a Dragon, which if I had upgraded from last year like most owners I know, I'd be even more angry if I was them right now. Sorry, this just feels like a cash grab by Red for a product that only high end users and VFX people barely wanted.

 

[Phil Holland]

Sorry, this just feels like a cash grab by Red for a product that only high end users and VFX people barely wanted.

Some of the features Weapons have are what people, studio related gigs and commercials, ask for 1-3 times a week where I am.

I deal with productions commonly shooting in Los Angeles, New York, Vancouver, and various other things that are all over. Commercials of various budget levels, low budget to high budget feature films, and especially television episodic.

Weapon isn't designed for everybody. It is the high end production camera in the RED lineup however.

My best advice without having a crystal ball as to what's in store for the future is upgrade to Dragon. The future is something RED won't fully be clear about because it's pretty far away and giving out that info today would silly especially with competing camera companies watching. Dragon bodies will still have an upgrade path if that's something you'll want to explore between now and whatever the next new tech is.

 

[Tim Morris]

The announcements made by RED this week were rather interesting. The price-point for the 6k Weapon and the 8K Weapon are a bit steep. I personally started out with a Scarlet last summer and I made two upgrades over the course of 6 months and I now have the Dragon. Needless to say, I spent a lot of money. This year will consist of learning and perfecting my craft with the camera that I have. I am open for future upgrades...just not at the present time. I must say this though.....considering that RED allows you to get a new camera and/or sensor based off a upgrade is huge. I guess I will try to get a return on some of my funds this year and later on down the line...........a upgrade may be in sight.

 

[egon touste]

well its good to know my recently upgraded dragon is worth $13000 as a trade in, ..after the $10k upgrade last week..

so my question is: will my recently upgraded sensor and new boards be reused in the weapon?

and:

i) if not, why did your marketing push us towards the upgrade?

or

ii) oh, they are recycled .. so why does weapon cost $40k when im providing most of the parts?

either way, i have experienced being upgraded and downgraded simultaneously ..making both obsolete

you know, the more i think, the more i think : not cool

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

So far there has been little to no specific talk about IQ increases.

I think when image quality (IQ) benefits become more clear, there will be much more enthusiasm. It is IQ that I can show to clients and justify a rental with. It is IQ that is important to me as an image maker. I will think about investing when I can imagine such a conversation creating a return on that investment. I'm sure I am not alone.

The rest is not so interesting for me personally. ProRes? Not interested as we use only RAW in our workflows, and now so do our clients. Premiere makes this easy, and has become wildly popular, if not I can do a transcode for them in one night. Smaller size? Epic is already too small/light most fo time (needs added weight for inertia) or small enough in those few other cases (like drones owned by good operators).

8K? That's a data clog. We don't have the computers to deal with that, and to even lesser extent do our clients, and it's just not relevant when 100% of our deliveries are in 1080p, and 2K looks really good even when projected in Imax. 6K si already too much in our world.

But IQ…. IQ is king. Better IQ, when demonstrated, will change everything.

 

[Tyler Dreher]

I think when image quality (IQ) benefits become more clear, there will be much more enthusiasm. It is IQ that I can show to clients and justify a rental with. It is IQ that is important to me as an image maker. I will think about investing when I can imagine such a conversation creating a return on that investment. So far there has been little to no specific talk about IQ increases.

The rest is not so interesting for me personally. ProRes? Not interested as we use only RAW in our workflows, and now so do our clients. Premiere makes this easy, and has become wildly popular, if not I can do a transcode for them in one night. Smaller size? Epic is already too small/light most fo time (needs added weight for inertia) or small enough in those few other cases (like drones owned by good operators).

8K? That's a data clog. We don't have the computers to deal with that, and to even lesser extent do our clients, and it's just not relevant when 100% of our deliveries are in 1080p, and 2K looks really good even when projected in Imax. 6K si already too much in our world.

But IQ…. IQ is king. Better IQ, when demonstrated, will change everything.

A half stop of DR is gonna make that much of a difference to clients from the current IQ?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

One thing this upgrade has done is point out how many different types of customers RED has. For some, this upgrade is a no brainer, for others it makes no sense. And then a bunch of grey areas in between. It's easy to see why some would be happy and some would be disappointed. It's also interesting to think back to 2006-2007 and how the digital cinema camera market was far less flooded. 8 years later and man have things changed. When it comes to RED, enough time has passed that some of the shooters who scraped enough together to get a Scarlet have moved on to Epic Dragon and now stare at an upgrade to Weapon. And red is no longer the only 4K+ game in town?So Red and their customers are at interesting crossroads. I think all of the passion, confusion, gut checks are probably expected considering the wide spectrum of customers, markets, type of content created, etc.

I've been trying to remind myself to keep an open mind on all of the comments that have streamed in over the past few days because people have a right to voice their thoughts and I may not always be coming at things from the same perspective due to the variables involved. Hopefully the one thing not lost in all this is how far RED has come as a company.Think about what the past 8 years have brought. Think about how long those other companies have been around (BMD the exception) and it's a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that have made Weapon even possible. The fact that the R1 is still a viable option 8 years later is an incredible testament to what RED has accomplished. And their customers can share in that success as well. It has been the feedback (sometimes very intense), the battles, the friendships, the breakthroughs, the disappointments, and ultimately the desire to make a highly advanced camera system that would push the industry forward into the digital era that has led to RED of today.

I consider myself camera agnostic these days, but there's no doubt I still have a sweet spot for RED because they got me excited about digital cinema. I respect Arri's products. But RED certainly brings out that young, ambitious filmmaker in me that still stays up way too late thinking about films I want to make.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

A half stop of DR is gonna make that much of a difference to clients from the current IQ?

I've yet to see tests showing differences. Half stop above middle grey? No. More sensitivity and especially smoother roll-down to noise floor? Yes. But the noise floor is subjective, so I'd have to see for myself. I also heard a rumour that certain artifacts had been fixed. I'd like to see to what extent this is true. Hopefully it is 100% correct.

 

[Mike Nagel]

But IQ…. IQ is king. Better IQ, when demonstrated, will change everything.

Exactly. And it appears there are barely any IQ relevant improvements.

the majority of the costs is for an inferior Prores feature that the majority of RED owner do not need because we've all been working with RAW for many years now, we know and love the workflow and we have the infrastructure in place.

so "the RAW franchise" releases a Prores update at twice the usual upgrade costs... Hell froze over ;-)

would have loved for that time, money and effort to have been spent on further improving color science, A/D conversion to squeeze out more from Dragon, more fps etc but I'm sure this is what the next sensor gen will address...

but then again, what would the RED experience be without the excitement, the drama and the kiss kiss makeup ?!? ;-)))

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

One thing this upgrade has done is point out how many different types of customers RED has. For some, this upgrade is a no brainer, for others it makes no sense. And then a bunch of grey areas in between. It's easy to see why some would be happy and some would be disappointed. It's also interesting to think back to 2006-2007 and how the digital cinema camera market was far less flooded. 8 years later and man have things changed. When it comes to RED, enough time has passed that some of the shooters who scraped enough together to get a Scarlet have moved on to Epic Dragon and now stare at an upgrade to Weapon. And red is no longer the only 4K+ game in town?So Red and their customers are at interesting crossroads. I think all of the passion, confusion, gut checks are probably expected considering the wide spectrum of customers, markets, type of content created, etc.

I've been trying to remind myself to keep an open mind on all of the comments that have streamed in over the past few days because people have a right to voice their thoughts and I may not always be coming at things from the same perspective due to the variables involved. Hopefully the one thing not lost in all this is how far RED has come as a company.Think about what the past 8 years have brought. Think about how long those other companies have been around (BMD the exception) and it's a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that have made Weapon even possible. The fact that the R1 is still a viable option 8 years later is an incredible testament to what RED has accomplished. And their customers can share in that success as well. It has been the feedback (sometimes very intense), the battles, the friendships, the breakthroughs, the disappointments, and ultimately the desire to make a highly advanced camera system that would push the industry forward into the digital era that has led to RED of today.

I consider myself camera agnostic these days, but there's no doubt I still have a sweet spot for RED because they got me excited about digital cinema. I respect Arri's products. But RED certainly brings out that young, ambitious filmmaker in me that still stays up way too late thinking about films I want to make.

I agree. In fact, if someone said I could only shoot R1 MX for the next five years I would not be terribly upset. Except for slo-mo, there is really nothing you can't do with that camera. There was a time when comparing R1 MX to Alexa was a discussion had by very reasonable people, with each having pros and cons (not just price) - and some chose 01 MX, not Alexa - and that same exact Alexa is now the most popular camera for major features. What that logically infers is that Red One MX compares well, today, to the current most popular blockbuster feature camera.

Epic MX, now a five year old camera? Even less of a problem. If need be, I could shoot with that camera indefinitely. That's quite a testament to how far ahead both those pieces of tech really were, and in fact still are.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Exactly. And it appears there are barely any IQ relevant improvements.

the majority of the costs is for an inferior Prores feature that the majority of RED owner do not need because we've all been working with RAW for many years now, we know and love the workflow and we have the infrastructure in place.

so "the RAW franchise" releases a Prores update at twice the usual upgrade costs... Hell froze over ;-)

would have loved for that time, money and effort to have been spent on further improving color science, A/D conversion to squeeze out more from Dragon, more fps etc but I'm sure this is what the next sensor gen will address...

but then again, what would the RED experience be without the excitement, the drama and the kiss kiss makeup ?!? ;-)))

i think it is more fair to say that IQ improvements have not been clearly stated yet, possibly because Red is not yet fully aware of all that the new chips will make possible. I think we should wait and see, especially to find out what a completely new OLPF might bring to the table, that it is my guess they are working on.

 

[Mike Nagel]

i think it is more fair to say that IQ improvements have not been clearly stated yet, possibly because Red is not yet fully aware of all that the new chips will make possible. I think we should wait and see, especially to find out what a completely new OLPF might bring to the table, that it is my guess they are working on.

absolutely... I'm not worried. Dragon is killer. Everything on top of that is bonus.

 

[Sulekh Suman]

This poll speaks volumes on behalf of existing owners.

 

[JanneJansson]

Think the Weapon is extremely good and 8k will be a powerful experience. Unfortunately the USD exchange rate is poor for me and having 2 working Dragons they will have to earn more capital for a years or two before weapon I feel.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

VistaVision Weapon at 6K with larger photosites for better low light performance would have sold me in an instant. Going to wait it out for a while and see what the image looks like in the field.

 

[Tony Harris]

I know when to stop..this is a rich man's game. I need to make money using my Epic-x first,setting up my resolve system for 4k and now 8K? That's like 24 to 42 cores pc . Weapon and 8k Lens with 8k pc hmmm.
Car-House and Boat. BUSTED!!!

 

[Brian Merlen]

i voted 8k, but theres a catch...if i come up short on the 15k ill be disappointed lol...

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Wow. Red must be shocked looking at these poll numbers. They may not be reflective of what the actuals are, but still must be a real eye opener.

I for one paid for both of our Dragon upgrades early on the Monday even though it wasn't fully clear what we were buying. Am I disappointed with what I paid for? Totally. Don't think the upgrade price is worth getting ProRes & 'minor' DR improvement. It was more to make sure I could get in line for 8K when it may come available for the non-Carbon Weapons...but to pay $17,500 USD per camera doesn't seem right (with the CDN exchange it's over $20K per camera). I love Red, but this was a misstep -I hope they can recalibrate.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

That is pretty sobering. Given that there are doubtless many silent others. Most users I speak with are not upgrading for now. I think prob is on several levels. Red has an industry image problem and there are many in its loyal ranks who have put up with a lot of crap defending 'known probs' to naysayers who pretty much nod off when you try to explain why they just don't get it. I can see on the screen that Red has done a ton of things to get former issues fixed, but the stigma of past issues hangs around and has given time for other brands to entrench. The super loyal will always go along no matter what and slice and dice those with anything negative to say - which is tiring in its own way and further pushes people away.

The simply loyal - the broad base - are underwhelmed and feeling they are paying for Reds R and D path, potholes and all. From what I can tell what would have made many more consider Weapon would have been higher frame rate 4KUHD pro res, a DEB feature, 33LUT etc - in the Mg body at the Mg price as incentive to the 'loyal' to upgrade and keep promoting the system. And yes I know on the glance sheet etc the cost of development etc etc... But that is beside the point. Other manufacturers now get the whole concept of grabbing market share with strong value proposition. What we see here instead, is the vaguely affordable option has only 2K 60fps pro rez, 17LUT, and no DEB. It's pretty, but already people are squawking about accessories and form factor etc.. So the little improvements like auto blackshade (which should not really be seen as anything more than something finally figured out), small processing enhancements in the MG that allow for the 'limited pro rez' - leave a vast sum of potential income sitting pat.

I do not know if anything can or will be done to change this. I hope something. Because as a person who likes the Dragon imagery and feel Red was approaching a tipping point to the positive, I just hate to think so many would just decamp jumping to any of many increasingly solid alternatives.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

It's a significant business argument. 10% are upgrading. I can't recall the Epic and Dragon numbers but I suspect they were significantly higher (Harcharan's list after NAB last year had many many hundreds in line to go to up to Dragon). People bought in figuratively and literally. How many thousands of Epic bodies are out there? Sample size here is very small, but somewhat proportionate.

I know everyone at Red works and bleeds the company creed. But this Weapon 6K thing is so far a misfire. Certainly Red has fixed a few of the issues encountered -good on them and I'm happy to receive the benefit of such dedication by way of fan upgrades, RC-X improvements with DEB, etc. Would have loved to have seen my Motion Mounts get some kind of OLPF love, but maybe that's coming...

Is the current Dragon finally a camera the industry feels is mature enough (studios notwithstanding since they can afford the best of the best and lighting packages are never an issue)? Unfortunately there are a lot of filmmakers and producers out in the world who still don't care to educate themselves about the proper workflow...when they follow the manual it performs as expected.

In another post somewhere I said give us the guts of the 8K Carbon in the Magnesium and that might be worth it (since body sizes are the same). The 8K sensor justifies another premium fee...is it worth 20,000 on top of everything else? Still too early to tell unfortunately.