Weapon worth it? Poll time

[Elsie N]

Things appear to be working out for me to upgrade to Weapon 8k. I'm glad RED extended the time for more of us to go big. If I remember, Jarred said that the order size of 8k sensor is important in re: pricing. And I suspect that's why the sensors may go up later on... if they have to be ordered in small batches, the cost of fabrication may justify the doubling of the price.

I do hope RED can offer another "group buy" for a later upgrade. The more cameras out there shooting 8k content, the more likely the adoption by NLEs, codecs, media exhibitors. Those of us with content can benefit when that becomes mainstream.

Thanks RED for again enabling the future well in advance.

 

[Phil Holland]

While this poll is informative, it's not representing everybody and generally showcases who the target market that Weapon isn't for.

During NAB 2015 I spoke to 2 major studios, a network tech adviser, and a handful of rental houses regarding what Weapon is all about and the general consensus was positive to very positive.

In the general markets I'm involved with Weapon represents a lot of things that have been asked for. For those who have been demanding more "juice" and features built on top of the 6K Dragon sensor (and soon 8K sensor) Weapon sort of hits the nail straight on the head.

Jarred summed it up best really.

We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone.. which is why we have our other camera lines that fit different customers... And we make it incredibly beneficial for our customers to move to if they are ready. Yes it is expensive... because it is the most expensive camera to make that we have ever made.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

While this poll is informative, it's not representing everybody and generally showcases who the target market that Weapon isn't for.

During NAB 2015 I spoke to 2 major studios, a network tech adviser, and a handful of rental houses regarding what Weapon is all about and the general consensus was positive to very positive.

In the general markets I'm involved with Weapon represents a lot of things that have been asked for. For those who have been demanding more "juice" and features built on top of the 6K Dragon sensor (and soon 8K sensor) Weapon sort of hits the nail straight on the head.

Jarred summed it up best really.

I tend to agree with 90+% of what you say. And I for one have been a happy Dragon owner. I am not sure I agree though with your market analysis. Because I would make the case the Weapon and upgrade pricing is moving it into the firing line of the industry 'unpersuaded' with deep pockets who are less likely to be convinced because they have made their choices and workflows and unless there was a quantum reason to change they won't.

The 8K promise is a potential niche for sure. But knowing how things go there will be trial and error and one hopes for smooth sailing.

All this poll points out, and what upsets me, is it just shows an underwhelmed majority. Not based on money. Not based on who is a snob and who isn't. But just not 'feeling it'.

 

[egon touste]

Originally Posted by Jarred Land

We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone.. which is why we have our other camera lines that fit different customers... And we make it incredibly beneficial for our customers to move to if they are ready. Yes it is expensive... because it is the most expensive camera to make that we have ever made.



good..
really..
good..
not for everyone..who? oh, just people who like cleaner signals, quieter fans, extended battery life ,upgradable sensors, expanded dynamic range , less noise..who have inexaustable funds.. not me then
yeah, when im ready.. a week after i just spent $10k upgrading my sensor .. so whats the reason i couldn't go from epic mx -> weapon ?!!!.. not an option eh..
expensive..no kidding
yes.. yes it is, thank god i only have to upgrade one module, the $40k brain..* and some other stuff which is optional..

* upgrade only available to those who upgrade to dragon for $10k.. or who have $40k lying around to buy outright..

 

[Brian Merlen]

The sensor size interests me enough to warrant the deposits as I watch the market and analyze data on existing inventory. I want the vista but am heavily conflicted due to other possibilities in life. I want it enough to deposit and wait few months to think this through

 

[Nick Morrison]

Originally Posted by Jarred Land

We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone.. which is why we have our other camera lines that fit different customers... And we make it incredibly beneficial for our customers to move to if they are ready. Yes it is expensive... because it is the most expensive camera to make that we have ever made.



good..
really..
good..
not for everyone..who? oh, just people who like cleaner signals, quieter fans, extended battery life ,upgradable sensors, expanded dynamic range , less noise..who have inexaustable funds.. not me then
yeah, when im ready.. a week after i just spent $10k upgrading my sensor .. so whats the reason i couldn't go from epic mx -> weapon ?!!!.. not an option eh..
expensive..no kidding
yes.. yes it is, thank god i only have to upgrade one module, the $40k brain..* and some other stuff which is optional..

* upgrade only available to those who upgrade to dragon for $10k.. or who have $40k lying around to buy outright..

I understand the anger - but why does RED have to make a camera for EVERYONE? Weapon is a studio/rental camera, clearly priced out of many owner/ops reach.

Jarred has already said in other threads they have a "plan/roadmap" for Indies/owner ops. I imagine well hear more about that NAB 2016. Aluminum Weapon?

 

[Mike Nagel]

I understand the anger - but why does RED have to make a camera for EVERYONE? Weapon is a studio/rental camera, clearly priced out of many owner/ops reach.

Jarred has already said in other threads they have a "plan/roadmap" for Indies/owner ops. I imagine well hear more about that NAB 2016. Aluminum Weapon?

they don't have to do anything and we don't have to buy anything, but all RED peeps were excited that finally after 5 years a new body was coming with hopefully improved features that have been requested forever...

remember how big an improvement the Epic body was over R1 (except on the audio side) ? those were the expectations... ;-)

well, the body is only a tiny improvement (they fixed fan positioning, which was a design flaw), no major features worth talking about for RAW shooters except some small workflow stuff... and the upgrade price, well you know... ;-)

it was advertised to be the "right thing" to upgrade to Dragon before NAB, while the reality is if u saved that money u could have just sold ur stuff easily and simply bought a new W... with the Dargon sensor in it.

and I'm not sure if all the cameras combined that the Networks and Studios "may or may not be purchasing now" would ever sum up to the numbers of indie RED owners that will now not upgrade... ;-)


RED shooters want some body improvements after 5 years, and this upgrade is (barely) "better than nothing", but not worth the price, IMO. Yet. We'll see what happens... ;-)

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

they don't have to do anything and we don't have to buy anything, but all RED peeps were excited that finally after 5 years a new body was coming with hopefully improved features that have been requested forever...

remember how big an improvement the Epic body was over R1 (except on the audio side) ? those were the expectations... ;-)

well, the body is only a tiny improvement (they fixed fan positioning, which was a design flaw), no major features worth talking about for RAW shooters except some small workflow stuff... and the upgrade price, well you know... ;-)

it was advertised to be the "right thing" to upgrade to Dragon before NAB, while the reality is if u saved that money u could have just sold ur stuff easily and simply bought a new W... with the Dargon sensor in it.

and I'm not sure if all the cameras combined that the Networks and Studios "may or may not be purchasing now" would ever sum up to the numbers of indie RED owners that will now not upgrade... ;-)


RED shooters want some body improvements after 5 years, and this upgrade is (barely) "better than nothing", but not worth the price, IMO. Yet. We'll see what happens... ;-)

Yes, Epic set the bar really high... they're fighting the law of diminishing returns.

The lower end is being eaten away by companies like AJA, BMD and Canon... while the high end is ARRI territory.
Where does that leave Red? I hope they don't end up becoming a speciality company like VisionResearch.

Releasing 8K almost seems like a desperate move. Who needs 8K in world where 2.8K is still preferred to 5k/6k for most projects?

 

[Mike Nagel]

Yes, Epic set the bar really high... they're fighting the law of diminishing returns.

The lower end is being eaten away by companies like CION, BMD and Canon... while the high end is ARRI territory.
Where does that leave Red? I hope they don't end up becoming a speciality company like VisionResearch.

Releasing 8K almost seems like a desperate move. Who needs 8K in world where 2.8K is still preferred to 5k/6k for most projects?

agreed, but I think even with the tiny improvements, W is a beast to beat for all other cams - because Epic Dragon is already killer.

the "odd thing" about this release is the price costs associated for the loyal upgrade peeps, who've been pumping money into RED. But at the full sale price of 34.5K (if u start fresh), W is a very, very good deal IMO.

From a business perspective I think it is a real gamble to put out these upgrade costs, when you have the "weakest" RED upgrade ever, with so many other cams available and released at a very fast pace...

Maybe they are just testing our blind faith and loyalty... ? "Luke... trust your instincts. Feel the FORCE !"

and that force has pushed me off the upgrade train !!! hahahahaaaa

 

[egon touste]

they don't have to do anything and we don't have to buy anything, but all RED peeps were excited that finally after 5 years a new body was coming with hopefully improved features that have been requested forever...

remember how big an improvement the Epic body was over R1 (except on the audio side) ? those were the expectations... ;-)

well, the body is only a tiny improvement (they fixed fan positioning, which was a design flaw), no major features worth talking about for RAW shooters except some small workflow stuff... and the upgrade price, well you know... ;-)

it was advertised to be the "right thing" to upgrade to Dragon before NAB, while the reality is if u saved that money u could have just sold ur stuff easily and simply bought a new W... with the Dargon sensor in it.

and I'm not sure if all the cameras combined that the Networks and Studios "may or may not be purchasing now" would ever sum up to the numbers of indie RED owners that will now not upgrade... ;-)


RED shooters want some body improvements after 5 years, and this upgrade is (barely) "better than nothing", but not worth the price, IMO. Yet. We'll see what happens... ;-)

actually .. i don't want an epic body upgrade . if i had the choice between a red one with a dragon sensor at 4k/4.48k (etc), or an epic mx at 5/6/7 or 8k (hyperthetical) , i would have taken the red one ..worked it until weapon arrived..with the next sensor!!

the red one didn't need new media, processing, or bandwidth.. nothing was stopping it getting a new sensor, except the need to design a new board to interface with the existing body

..a cleaner sensor would have yielded samller files than the m, or mx .. the benefit of the brain was framerates .. meaningful, and worth paying for .. but what i wanted was dynamic range and greater sensitivity first..

 

[Nick Morrison]

they don't have to do anything and we don't have to buy anything, but all RED peeps were excited that finally after 5 years a new body was coming with hopefully improved features that have been requested forever...

remember how big an improvement the Epic body was over R1 (except on the audio side) ? those were the expectations... ;-)

well, the body is only a tiny improvement (they fixed fan positioning, which was a design flaw), no major features worth talking about for RAW shooters except some small workflow stuff... and the upgrade price, well you know... ;-)

it was advertised to be the "right thing" to upgrade to Dragon before NAB, while the reality is if u saved that money u could have just sold ur stuff easily and simply bought a new W... with the Dargon sensor in it.

and I'm not sure if all the cameras combined that the Networks and Studios "may or may not be purchasing now" would ever sum up to the numbers of indie RED owners that will now not upgrade... ;-)


RED shooters want some body improvements after 5 years, and this upgrade is (barely) "better than nothing", but not worth the price, IMO. Yet. We'll see what happens... ;-)

All fair points Mike. That's why I'm hoping RED comes out with an Aluminum Weapon...no LUTS/Prores...and at a more afforable price indies/ops can afford...

RED was built on the Scarlet/Epic platforms/pricepoints...I can't imagine they'd abandon it....

best

 

[Phil Holland]

Yes, Epic set the bar really high... they're fighting the law of diminishing returns.

The lower end is being eaten away by companies like AJA, BMD and Canon... while the high end is ARRI territory.
Where does that leave Red? I hope they don't end up becoming a speciality company like VisionResearch.

Releasing 8K almost seems like a desperate move. Who needs 8K in world where 2.8K is still preferred to 5k/6k for most projects?

Much of this I can't agree with. Mostly because similar things were being said when RED was first releasing the RED One.

I will agree that Epic with that DSMC style body did set the bar very high. These days competing camera companies have been inspired by both the modular concept as well as that form factor. Weapon is the forward advancement of that and for now in a high end production camera offering.

You're correct about the "lower end" getting a bit cluttered. However, RED has been the interesting camera over the years as it's been used for low budg/no budg all the way through $100+ feature films. Right now the Weapon CF and MG offerings are aimed at mid through the right side of that market/scale. Thus far that also has been who's been generally been pleased with what Weapon offers and what it's future potential holds.

I really, really don't see going 8K as anything close to "desperate". When the ITU and others defined specifications for UHD and DCI 4K and 8K we all were informed that these two resolutions were on the horizon for "work". I've been getting asked for 8K material since last year, so for some it's happening already. 2016 will be the first 8K "hardcore" broadcasting trials followed by some bigger advancements in 2017. Also, with top tier filmmakers exploring formats like VistaVision and 65mm 5-perf on features a digital cinema camera that can fit these creative and technical desires is/was a must.

RED has been an industry leader in pushing the 4K and 4K+ image capture and workflow. It's natural for them to be on the forefront of 8K right when the "few" need it today and perhaps the "more" need it tomorrow. For my money since RED hit that format to resolution relevance on Dragon with 5K existing in the Super 35mm format it has become the "true" digital film replacement, but that's squarely my opinion. Also local to my experience, I haven't been working in under 4K since the end of 2010. And since Dragon's release I've been mostly shooting 5K and 5K+ for a 4K finish.

 

[Tony Harris]

This camera and the others will be for Deep pockets. I can't complain because I have upgraded and still shot nothing yet due to projects. My take is why bitch if you haven't made money with the first 1,2 or 3 cameras? We think about jumping but nothing out here can compare to the Red Cameras except maybe film but even that cost is out of the park. I do want to thank them for giving us a chance for our dreams but to make a bold statement that this camera is not for us is disappointing. We all know when the next camera raises its head they will cut deals like always. Also people that's moving to the next camera will sell. Epic got hot with sells and Dragon and weapon will fall into that line also.

 

[Tony Harris]

What happens now? 8k lenses, new editing systems in the 12K to 20k line...it may not be the cost of the camera so much it may be the full cost of starting from scratch gain. For all of that loot can't we get a camera that's fully together? LOL. Time to get serious about my business and make mad money.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

it was advertised to be the "right thing" to upgrade to Dragon before NAB, while the reality is if u saved that money u could have just sold ur stuff easily and simply bought a new W... with the Dargon sensor in it.

and I'm not sure if all the cameras combined that the Networks and Studios "may or may not be purchasing now" would ever sum up to the numbers of indie RED owners that will now not upgrade... ;-)

an important point and why I strongly encouraged RED, in another thread, to figure out ways to keep their loyal owner operator base on the upgrade path - possibly by re-thinking the model of the upgrade path.

Real rental houses will be very happy that the gap between them and owner operators who rent their gear will be reinstated.

Having healthy rental houses is actually a good thing for this industry.

However, implying that this upgrade is not for a broad swath of the owner-operators, whose sheer numbers put RED on the map in the first place, seems like an unfortunate characterization...perhaps a tactical error. Especially with Jarred encouraging the lowliest person on the totem poll to upgrade before NAB if they wanted a seat at the table.

I'm fine with RED targeting a new niche which may or may not be for me. But being clear that this upgrade was going to knock a lot of people out of the running with its "not for" everyone pricing would have been the right move and the right treatment of its loyal user base.

If I had gone to the trouble to upgrade my SCARLET based on trust and blind loyalty, only to find that my $9500 upgrade to an originally $9750 camera was worth $5K on the trade-in for the upgrade path, I'd have been bummed, too.

Jarred hints that there is more in store for these users. Let's hope so. My Scarlet is off the upgrade path now, but it will be interesting to see what shakes out in the long run.

RED - sometimes controversial, always interesting.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I agree 100% with what Nick and Phil say here. But to me, this pole isn't reflecting a lot of the peoples opinion that i know. My view is a lot of red users have given up on reduser for various reasons, and basically don't view or comment in reduser anymore. This i think gives a skewed distribution on poles, but even more, not having the wider group reduser's post inhibits a lot of discussions that i find interesting.

I understand the anger - but why does RED have to make a camera for EVERYONE? Weapon is a studio/rental camera, clearly priced out of many owner/ops reach.

Jarred has already said in other threads they have a "plan/roadmap" for Indies/owner ops. I imagine well hear more about that NAB 2016. Aluminum Weapon?

While this poll is informative, it's not representing everybody and generally showcases who the target market that Weapon isn't for.

During NAB 2015 I spoke to 2 major studios, a network tech adviser, and a handful of rental houses regarding what Weapon is all about and the general consensus was positive to very positive.

In the general markets I'm involved with Weapon represents a lot of things that have been asked for. For those who have been demanding more "juice" and features built on top of the 6K Dragon sensor (and soon 8K sensor) Weapon sort of hits the nail straight on the head.

Jarred summed it up best really.

 

[Enrique DR]

When will the "K" race stabilize and allow for really creative people to do their thing? Endless times I've heard young aspiring DP's ask a veteran cinematographer, what camera, lens, emulsion (For all of us older than 35), process, etc. You used? instead of asking the aestetical reasons why they lit something one way and not the other? In the races the better driver will always outperform the "better" car or, like I always use to say It's the driver, not the car, that wins races. In my opinion the danger that red and it's followers are facing is that at the camera race, RED it started running late and now finds itself running alone, but not ahead of the pack, but got itself onto another road or de-tour.

Good luck to all of those who buy the camera for the pixel count and not for the quality of the images it renders.

E

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

RED......not ahead of the pack, but got itself onto another road or de-tour.

Good luck to all of those who buy the camera for the pixel count and not for the quality of the images it renders.

E

My thoughts exactly. A camera thought by RED to be for everyone awkwardly skips the majority of a large market segment.

And yes, the pixel race is odd to me when there is cmos smear and other problems to get right.

 

[M.Halsell]

General Reactions to Weapon

General Reactions to Weapon

I think its a knee jerk reaction to the new Weapon platform. A small minority will not move forward. There is a probably a larger group still reeling with sticker shock, but will silently grin and bear it. We've had at least 2 or 3 of these pivot points in RED history followed with public outrage in the streets. The sky is definitely not falling for those that need to stay, leave or stand down on the upgrade path. The 2015 takeaway is a updated camera platform that can be efficiently built upon for the new rounds of sensor, camera and assessors enhancement. The value is probably less apparent if strictly comparing K for K. But the horsepower of the Weapon platform will kick in as the heavier lifting becomes apparent.

RED has made the cost transition as palatable as possible under the circumstance. There was no nice or sexy way of saying how expensive it was going to be. They went for the feature set over cost. Which is good, because they wont have to circle back down the road. It was good to hear from the group at large as each have a different ownership experience: some having less ownership time to get a decent investment return, some in smaller less prosperous markets or clientele, others being handed clarity that RED ownership should not be an entirely emotional but rather a pragmatic purchase decision.

The critical design flaw of the human genome need for social validation. Those lower on the survival chain need more of it, those higher in the food chain need less of it to work thru process.

This time next year, hopefully we will be fussing over the merits of 8K.

Cheers

 

[Andy White]

The critical design flaw of the human gnome is need for social validation. Those lower on the survival chain need more of it, those higher in the food chain need less of it to work thru process.

Cheers

Leave the Gnomes out of this! :biggrin: