Weapon 8k Queue

[Jarred Land]

Second all the above. The frustration arises from the lack of forthcoming from RED. The last we heard was they were going to divert all production to PV.

It was my ASSUMPTION that had been the case for about the past two years, having no real numbers otherwise. They got the first dozen or so out very quickly for GOTG to shoot with so being surprised at the difficulty to make the damn things doesn't hold water.

If we are simply being relegated further back in the queue because we are less worthy than big productions, say so. I for one won't take it personally. I'll just be happy to know where I stand. I just don't think it is fair to ask me (us) to passively sit on our thumb in darkened isolation... (or at least, that's how it seems.)

Excuse me? Lack of forthcoming from RED? Really?

I've been very, very clear in how hard VV Dragon sensors are to make..... and I've told everyone that it is a long wait. A long long wait. If you are tired of waiting you can bail at any time... and we have given everyone with an order in a free helium sensor upgrade to pass the time.

Actually... I'm gonna stop responding to you. You need to take a lesson from Blair on how to ask the same questions without being such a dick.

It's been over 2 years since those of us in the 8K VV queue pre-paid our $10K (4 or 5 delivered AFAIK). We were warned in advance that the VV Dragon cuts were extremely difficult to manufacture. We understand that the deal with Panavision for VV chips for the Millennium DXL is important to RED and the entire RedUser community. I appreciate that Jarred has given us regular updates. It may not have been the news we wanted to hear, but at least we knew the score. I also recognize that nobody wants to get VV chip production improved more than RED, so whining is kind of like accusing them of not trying their best - that's jerky and unproductive.

I post today to ask about the situation; no bashing, no second guessing, no bitching because RED wanted to push the envelope - heck, that's one of their best attributes. It's about the situation as it stands. AFAIK, producing VV Dragon cuts is still an extremely low yield proposition - is there any reason to expect that to improve in 2017, or beyond? I certainly don't expect RED to publicly discuss their deal with Panavision, full stop. That said, as a pre-paid VV waiter, how do you not wonder how much impact the PV deal has on the timeline?

Some of us, me included, have wondered if perhaps RED might be pursuing any alternatives to VV Dragon cuts. Perhaps Helium tech could be used to make a 5 micron pitch sensor that would match Dragon in physical dimensions, thereby allowing a VV cut at 8K vs 11K-ish so current boards could handle the data. Perhaps there is an even newer sensor tech in R&D that will be offered to Dragon VV waiters first (gotta have a dream).

To be clear, I'm not "demanding" a full briefing on the situation. That said, 2 years in, what can you tell us?

1) Status quo: Enjoy the camera in your hand and we'll get VV to you when we can. (Still frustrating, but waiting is part of life and we were given fair warning.)
2) Course change: We never thought it would take this long to sort the yield issues, but since it has, we are working on an alternative that we are not yet ready to discuss publicly.
3) News: ???

Cheers - #19

Thanks Blair for the proper inquiry. The punchline is more waiting.

I told you all in the last update we need to wait for the next batch and that comes in mid June to see how this latest round goes.

We put Panavision's allocated sensors are on custom sensor board so even though they are functionally the same sensors, they do not fit in DSMC2 bodies, so they are not actually robbing you all.. those sensors we couldn't put into normal bodies if we wanted to. And even though they have a very large order ahead of everyone, They actually allowed us to bump some customers ahead of them in line before we made their sensor boards. Guardians cameras are their cameras. And even though they do have a bunch of VV sensors, they don't have as many as they want either

VV Dragon is stunning... i know it's hard to appreciate because it may look easy but it is such a massive jump forward in size and resolution and frame rates that still to this day it's near impossible to make.

And don't worry... we are not standing still... we have a lot of things in the works big and small. So enjoy what you have.

 

[Tom Hanmer]

... and we have given everyone with an order in a free helium sensor upgrade to pass the time.

Hi Jarred, just a quick one. I got in on the initial order for the VV and haven't been upgraded to the Helium yet. Should I talk to my bomb squad rep or am I confusing your words and should continue waiting? Thanks, Tom

 

[Jarred Land]

Hi Jarred, just a quick one. I got in on the initial order for the VV and haven't been upgraded to the Helium yet. Should I talk to my bomb squad rep or am I confusing your words and should continue waiting? Thanks, Tom

Hey Tom, contact your bomb squad rep , the offer applies to you as well

 

[Tom Hanmer]

Hey Jarred
Thanks for the reply, will do. Right now!

 

[DJ Meyer]

Hi Jarred, just a quick one. I got in on the initial order for the VV and haven't been upgraded to the Helium yet. Should I talk to my bomb squad rep or am I confusing your words and should continue waiting? Thanks, Tom

Same here. Radio silence from rep on Helium 8K "waiting room" upgrade.

Will pester my rep.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) Thanks Blair for the proper inquiry. The punchline is more waiting. (snip)

I had a chance to shoot with a VV and that has only made the waiting harder. Hope the next batch is a bumper crop. Thanks for the update.

Cheers - #19

 

[Stacey Spears]

... and we have given everyone with an order in a free helium sensor upgrade to pass the time.

There have been a lot of generous offers from Red, but this one is way up there. When Helium was first announced, like everyone else, I stressed over which version to get. In the end, Helium's are plentiful, so shooting on one is not a problem. It was a no brainer to get VV. The larger sensor is a different look and one that I really like. When I interviewed Michael Cioni, we talked about the large format look vs. s35 and he had some nice examples. This was related to the DXL camera and its origin story. Everyone loves a good origin story.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) Everyone loves a good origin story.

Unless it's a Dalsa Origin and you have to schlep it ;-).

IAC, I echo your sentiments on how the larger format impacts the look and how the viewer perceives the scene. I suppose I'd be more patient if I hadn't seen just how great the VV looks, now I'm jonesin' like Bubbles on The Wire... ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Unless it's a Dalsa Origin and you have to schlep it ;-).

I played with one once, mounted on a dolly. Glad I didn't have to pay for it, schlep it, move it, etc.. ugh.

IAC, I echo your sentiments on how the larger format impacts the look and how the viewer perceives the scene. I suppose I'd be more patient if I hadn't seen just how great the VV looks, now I'm jonesin' like Bubbles on The Wire... ;-)

This is why I'm still dreaming of that EPIC 645 that RED teased about several years back... The FF35/VV sized sensor is a great step in this direction, but ultimately I'd love to own something that shoots a frame size the same or comparable to 6x4.5 or 70mm/15 IMAX. So here's to hoping, dreaming and wishing. Perhaps one day it will come true.

 

[Stacey Spears]

This is why I'm still dreaming of that EPIC 645 that RED teased about several years back... The FF35/VV sized sensor is a great step in this direction, but ultimately I'd love to own something that shoots a frame size the same or comparable to 6x4.5 or 70mm/15 IMAX. So here's to hoping, dreaming and wishing. Perhaps one day it will come true.

I too dream of a 70mm/15 perf IMAX, not sure the resolution needs to go up. With the VV, we are able to use high quality still lenses, like Otus. The next stop is MF lenses. We are going to need some new lenses if we want to go 70mm IMAX that have Otus like quality. Assuming you like super sharp. This is not always the case, for sure.

Back when we had the 645 on the Red roadmap, FF35 was 6K. I am glad we ended up with it at 8K. I think it worked out perfectly. We get a nice 2:1 scaling ratio (In each direction) for 4K or UHD final delivery. The quality of the VV images, and I hate to use this phrase, are amazeballs!

What resolution are they scanning 70mm IMAX at? I recall seeing 8K on Baraka and I have even heard 12K. Do you think the resolution needs to go up for 70mm or is 8K good enough? I personally believe 8192x4320 should carry us for a while. I believe the Asto 8K is 15360 x 8640 and then they downsample in camera to 7680x4320.

Lets be honest, Red can charge a hell of a lot more than they are for VV and Helium. I am so fucking grateful that it was only $10K more for the VV. That was the deal of a lifetime. And you get a free Helium sensor to hold you over until your number comes up. Who does that?

Panavision is knocking it out of the park with the DXL. I will admit, I thought it was a joke when someone mentioned a velcro module. It exists and I get it. Though, the beauty of the DXL is that you should not need cables to attach stuff to the camera. Oh, I really like the sliding battery module on the DXL!

Right now I would like to see bitdepth / dynamic range / usable stops and spectral sensitivity (think gamut) increase.

Someone mentioned that the DXL media can do 600 MBs vs. 300 MBs of mini-mag in one of the DXL / NAB threads. Don't know if that is true or not, but I would love to have lower compression for high frame rates at full resolution. I don't know what the actual bottleneck is today.

 

[Sunny Moodie]

Coudnt agree with you more Stacey, I was talking to Joe Dunton the other day, maybe some next generation MF crystals to match the bigger sensors... and on another note I think one can keep scanning 35mm for a long way after 8k and still keep finding new information, so with 70mm? the K-sky may really be the limit.

 

[Jarred Land]

You shoot physically larger sensors not just for the increased resolution, but for the geometry you get with a given focal length that only a large sensor can provide. Its the main reason I pushed the VV to wider than standard 36mm for a full frame sensor.

In our first 10 years we have been very much focused on being an everything camera company. Sensor, ASIC , Reliability, Redcode, Color Science, etc.

I think we've executed on those boxes pretty well, and arguably have made pound for pound the best sensors on the market.

For the next few years we will be focusing more on making the camera you have even better.

In a look-the-fuck-out-we-are-not-screwing-around kind of way.

Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies.

As painful as the whole hurry up and wait is for the VV.. It's a sensor we have learned an incredible amount from.

it is a sensor that is near impossible to make, a sensor that has such low yields and such high expenses that makes no business sense whatsoever.... a sensor that takes such incredible images like no other that even 'normal' non-camera viewers comment on how beautiful the pictures are that come off of it.

So yeah... It really feels like we are just getting started.

 

[Nick Morrison]

You shoot physically larger sensors not just for the increased resolution, but for the geometry you get with a given focal length that only a large sensor can provide. Its the main reason I pushed the VV to wider than standard 36mm for a full frame sensor.

In our first 10 years we have been very much focused on being an everything camera company. Sensor, ASIC , Reliability, Redcode, Color Science, etc.

I think we've executed on those boxes pretty well, and arguably have made pound for pound the best sensors on the market.

For the next few years we will be focusing more on making the camera you have even better.

In a look-the-fuck-out-we-are-not-screwing-around kind of way.

Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies.

As painful as the whole hurry up and wait is for the VV.. It's a sensor we have learned an incredible amount from.

it is a sensor that is near impossible to make, a sensor that has such low yields and such high expenses that makes no business sense whatsoever.... a sensor that takes such incredible images like no other that even 'normal' non-camera viewers comment on how beautiful the pictures are that come off of it.

So yeah... It really feels like we are just getting started.

Having shot on Mark Pederson's 8K VV, I can confirm this camera is AMAZING.

We paired it with our modded Hasselblads, and the image BLEW OUR MIND.

Incredible.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) For the next few years we will be focusing more on making the camera you have even better. In a look-the-fuck-out-we-are-not-screwing-around kind of way. (snip)

That sounds fantastic. Not to be the "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" guy, but I sure hope that includes an option for UHD/4K monitoring. I'd also love to see a Broadcast Module for DSMC2 that supported 2160/60P (3,840H is fine) for hard lined EFP applications.

Cheers - #19

 

[Ketch Rossi]

You shoot physically larger sensors not just for the increased resolution, but for the geometry you get with a given focal length that only a large sensor can provide. Its the main reason I pushed the VV to wider than standard 36mm for a full frame sensor.

In our first 10 years we have been very much focused on being an everything camera company. Sensor, ASIC , Reliability, Redcode, Color Science, etc.

I think we've executed on those boxes pretty well, and arguably have made pound for pound the best sensors on the market.

For the next few years we will be focusing more on making the camera you have even better.

In a look-the-fuck-out-we-are-not-screwing-around kind of way.

Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies.

As painful as the whole hurry up and wait is for the VV.. It's a sensor we have learned an incredible amount from.

it is a sensor that is near impossible to make, a sensor that has such low yields and such high expenses that makes no business sense whatsoever.... a sensor that takes such incredible images like no other that even 'normal' non-camera viewers comment on how beautiful the pictures are that come off of it.

So yeah... It really feels like we are just getting started.

I am happy been in this present looking to the future then

 

[Phil Holland]

You shoot physically larger sensors not just for the increased resolution, but for the geometry you get with a given focal length that only a large sensor can provide. Its the main reason I pushed the VV to wider than standard 36mm for a full frame sensor.

In our first 10 years we have been very much focused on being an everything camera company. Sensor, ASIC , Reliability, Redcode, Color Science, etc.

I think we've executed on those boxes pretty well, and arguably have made pound for pound the best sensors on the market.

For the next few years we will be focusing more on making the camera you have even better.

In a look-the-fuck-out-we-are-not-screwing-around kind of way.

Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies.

As painful as the whole hurry up and wait is for the VV.. It's a sensor we have learned an incredible amount from.

it is a sensor that is near impossible to make, a sensor that has such low yields and such high expenses that makes no business sense whatsoever.... a sensor that takes such incredible images like no other that even 'normal' non-camera viewers comment on how beautiful the pictures are that come off of it.

So yeah... It really feels like we are just getting started.

This pleases me. Greatly.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies.

That is exciting news!

The VV is a thing of Beauty! Thank you for making it. Have you seen the pictures that Clark has been posting? They are just a smidgen of what he has shot. He posted some more samples this week.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

"In a look-the-fuck-out-we-are-not-screwing-around kind of way. Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies. "

Well that is freakin' awesome news right there. On a side note whenever I have to deal with corporate culture via TVC productions or even dreaded corporate videos I am left in despair. Except Red where the messages from the CEO make me laugh with the no bullshit honesty.

 

[Jeff McCoy]

So yeah... It really feels like we are just getting started.

I have no idea what improvements will come from Red in the future, but I'll do my best to be in the front row when it happens. Thanks for working as hard as you do Jarred (and everyone at Red).

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Helium will not be our last S35mm+ Sensor, and VV will not be our last Full Frame+ sensor that fit into your DSMC2 Bodies.

Hint* Hint* of good and even greater things (as hard as that is to believe) to come in the future with our existing DSMC2s :emote_happyhappy: