Weapon 8k Queue

[Christopher*Seguine]

We have another big batch of sensors coming in the end of month so we are excited to package those up and get them out as soon as they pass qualification. .

the next Batch of 8k sensors comes out of the oven next week which is still on track from my last March update. They take 2 weeks to go through the QC process so actual 8k cameras should roll out right around NAB time.

what happened to this batch?

Still no clarification if the $10k nab-2015 8k purchase includes exchange of Weapon PL mount 2.0 and Weapon OLPF for 8k PL mount and 8k OLPF

No mention of Weapon-8k specifics in the Weapon Op guide or Media guide
No Weapon-8k firmware up for download
No 8k r3d samples

Looking like it will be awhile. At this point, they will announce the next sensor right after 8k ships.

Canon has no problem making 50mp sensors
Sony is cranking out 100mp medium format sensors for Phase One and now Hasselblad.

To put things in perspective, that Sony sensor is 2.5 times larger than the Weapon 8k sensor.

Rental house recorded some clips from the Phase One back, 1080/60p and captured via the 8bit hdmi output so cant judge quality of the sensor so much, rolling shutter not great, but no horrible aliasing and look is interesting enough that its worth checking into what Hasselblad does, and who doesn't want a Hasselblad with a microphone input? The ultimate in blasphemy

Hasselblad HD6-100, 4k lossless raw from a real 53mmx40mm medium format sized sensor, it could be great - for many, medium format aesthetic would be more appealing than 8k.


The $10k 8k pre-purchase is feeling more like a 0% loan to build up the Raven production line and 8k is going to turn into another Meizler module...laser projector...

 

[Stacey Spears]

Still no clarification if the $10k nab-2015 8k purchase includes exchange of Weapon PL mount 2.0 and Weapon OLPF for 8k PL mount and 8k OLPF

The OLPF was clarified. It was stated that whichever OLPF you send in at time of upgrade will be swapped out for the 8k version.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Waiting sucks. That said, bashing RED is NOT helping - looking at you Christopher*.

Do you really think that the RedTeam is delaying out of spite? Really? I think they're giving it everything they've got and share our frustration with delays.

Cheers - #19

 

[Brad Grimm]

what happened to this batch?

Still no clarification if the $10k nab-2015 8k purchase includes exchange of Weapon PL mount 2.0 and Weapon OLPF for 8k PL mount and 8k OLPF

No mention of Weapon-8k specifics in the Weapon Op guide or Media guide
No Weapon-8k firmware up for download
No 8k r3d samples

Looking like it will be awhile. At this point, they will announce the next sensor right after 8k ships.

Canon has no problem making 50mp sensors
Sony is cranking out 100mp medium format sensors for Phase One and now Hasselblad.

To put things in perspective, that Sony sensor is 2.5 times larger than the Weapon 8k sensor.

Rental house recorded some clips from the Phase One back, 1080/60p and captured via the 8bit hdmi output so cant judge quality of the sensor so much, rolling shutter not great, but no horrible aliasing and look is interesting enough that its worth checking into what Hasselblad does, and who doesn't want a Hasselblad with a microphone input? The ultimate in blasphemy

Hasselblad HD6-100, 4k lossless raw from a real 53mmx40mm medium format sized sensor, it could be great - for many, medium format aesthetic would be more appealing than 8k.


The $10k 8k pre-purchase is feeling more like a 0% loan to build up the Raven production line and 8k is going to turn into another Meizler module...laser projector...

I think the last mega batch was not a mega success. But this is going to improve over time.

I had the great opportunity to talk with Jarred and Brent at NAB about the sensor. Believe me, they want these released more than anyone. Its just sometimes in todays world we as consumers forget, good things take time. We need to root them on for bringing the future to us, not throw stones.

 

[Jarred Land]

Canon has no problem making 50mp sensors
Sony is cranking out 100mp medium format sensors for Phase One and now Hasselblad.

To put things in perspective, that Sony sensor is 2.5 times larger than the Weapon 8k sensor.
..

You want Perspective....?

That Canon 50mp sensor.... 5 frames per second.

The Sony 100mp medium format sensor... 1.5 frames per second.

RED WEAPON 8K .... 60 frames per second ( 75 fps widescreen )

If those fit what you need... then by all means take your money and run.

And trust me.. If you think we took deposits to pay for other things your need to get your head checked. The 8k Program has cost us Millions and Millions and Millions of dollars and with a yield as low as they are every sensor that you guys are paying $10k for is a deal of a lifetime.... because every sensor we put into your camera is going to cost us 20x that amount.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Jarred,

Any chance of sharing some of the compression ratio options for 8k? Assuming this info is not in the current media ops guide. I am curious about 47.952 fps myself. Specifically in the case where I want to shoot using frame averaging set to 2. I am currently using this mode for a lower noise floor for HDR demo material. I assume that if I am using frame averaging, for time lapse, then I can get lower compression ratios, just not sure.

How about an 8k or 8k HD R3D to play with while we wait? A 5-frame R3D would be ideal so we can also use A.D.D. Please.

 

[Phil Holland]

Jarred,

Any chance of sharing some of the compression ratio options for 8k? Assuming this info is not in the current media ops guide. I am curious about 47.952 fps myself. Specifically in the case where I want to shoot using frame averaging set to 2. I am currently using this mode for a lower noise floor for HDR demo material. I assume that if I am using frame averaging, for time lapse, then I can get lower compression ratios, just not sure.

How about an 8k or 8k HD R3D to play with while we wait? A 5-frame R3D would be ideal so we can also use A.D.D. Please.

I can tell you I shot Forged at 8K FF at 60 fps with a REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio of 12:1 if that helps.

48 fps at 8K FF should be 10:1 if I recall correctly.

Yes, you can get lower compression ratios at lower frame rates. 24 fps 8K FF was/is 5:1 REDCODE RAW. I believe 8K WS goes to 4:1.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Thank you Phil.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I can tell you from conversations with Jarred that no one is more upset with the low yield of the bigger wafer cuts than he is. But they tend to want it perfect which is good for us. Waiting is a bitch, but I would rather have it right from the get go.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I can tell you from conversations with Jarred that no one is more upset with the low yield of the bigger wafer cuts than he is. But they tend to want it perfect which is good for us. Waiting is a bitch, but I would rather have it right from the get go.

If anything I think RED gets way fanatical on quality, perhaps too much so. I atleast have no requirement of havining every sensor perfect. I currently never do camera solves higher then 4k(because my solve blows up) and I know for shooting I'd never notice a averaged pixel (ave of 3 of 4, with the most different pixel dropped). I'm pretty sure no one ever complains from vfx on alexa mapping creating small tracking errors, and that camera is running around 4x worse in tracking resolution with somewhat random pixel mapping at that.

 

[DJ Meyer]

paying $10k for is a deal of a lifetime.... because every sensor we put into your camera is going to cost us 20x that amount.

Knew I should have ordered more than one :scared:

 

[Phil Holland]

If anything I think RED gets way fanatical on quality, perhaps too much so. I atleast have no requirement of havining every sensor perfect. I currently never do camera solves higher then 4k(because my solve blows up) and I know for shooting I'd never notice a averaged pixel (ave of 3 of 4, with the most different pixel dropped). I'm pretty sure no one ever complains from vfx on alexa mapping creating small tracking errors, and that camera is running around 4x worse in tracking resolution with somewhat random pixel mapping at that.

When you have the Academy, the 6 main studios, the newer digital streaming entities, some of the world's top filmmakers (and top grossing for that matter), and nut balls like me staring at your pixels you bet your butt you want to have a bit of a focus on quality.

We're not talking tracking errors here.

The standards for image quality in the realm of digital cinema cameras are rather high. We recently saw and are seeing another company damn near shooting themselves in the foot right now because of certain QC related things being majorly overlooked. That's a different market for sure, but the point is, RED needs to maintain making quality cameras. It's what got them to "now". And with Dragon in particular you aren't hearing many of the cries that used to whisper in the forest at night. The reason behind this is RED is working hard to do things right. Sometimes however that's not easy.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Seriously? You don't think they can guess whether it will be this year or 2 years from now? Wow.

As of today, I just don't think they have enough information to predict how long. That said, after a few more batches come through the gauntlet, I'd expect them to have a much better handle.

Cheers - #19

 

[Stacey Spears]

If anything I think RED gets way fanatical on quality, perhaps too much so.

I disagree. The 8k is going to be put under the proverbial microscope and so there is no room for phoning it in when it comes to image quality. Everyone is going to pixel-peep the hell out of the 8k sensor. Competitors, and owners of other camera brands, are going to go out of their way to nitpick the 8k sensor.

Seriously? You don't think they can guess whether it will be this year or 2 years from now? Wow.

They can probably guess, but this is not information they are sharing with us. With the exception of the RED ONE, where we were given our serial number and month it would ship, RED does not share that type of information with us, which is why these unofficial lists exist.

 

[Ian Cresswell]

As of today, I just don't think they have enough information to predict how long. That said, after a few more batches come through the gauntlet, I'd expect them to have a much better handle.

Cheers - #19

Just excited to see them start rolling out is all (like everyone else on here). Here's hoping the yield improves.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I'm in love with RED's quality control, I wouldn't dream of changing it. I do thinkExpecting a perfect sensor is sensor fanaticism, it would be like rejecting a sensor because you have to do blackshading. To me having what is "grossly" called dead pixel mapping is a great feature. The problem with the nice algorithm set for pixel mapping is it needs to go in front of the wavelet or it creates a ripple, because it's a impulse response in zero order time. With wavelets, a dead pixel at 8k should be almost impossible to detect with cinema lenses and normal issues of production (like focus)

I disagree. The 8k is going to be put under the proverbial microscope and so there is no room for phoning it in when it comes to image quality. Everyone is going to pixel-peep the hell out of the 8k sensor. Competitors, and owners of other camera brands, are going to go out of their way to nitpick the 8k sensor.
...

...

The standards for image quality in the realm of digital cinema cameras are rather high. We recently saw and are seeing another company damn near shooting themselves in the foot right now because of certain QC related things being majorly overlooked. That's a different market for sure, but the point is, RED needs to maintain making quality cameras. It's what got them to "now". And with Dragon in particular you aren't hearing many of the cries that used to whisper in the forest at night. The reason behind this is RED is working hard to do things right. Sometimes however that's not easy.

I was just doing some 36k by 36k sphere's today, kind of like what you did in the old days, there's just a huge amount of processing to do that. So my comments are more for people trying to break into the business via vr/augmented reality and cinematic gaming. Everyone in my "click" doesn't have any problems with masking a few pixels out of the insane amount we need to do our job, if that masking is done in camera so much the better. For me I need that 8k, it hugely upgrades my quality by reducing the amount of stitching I need to do. Also on my anamorphic lenses that extra sensor height gives a huge "feel" difference even if I'm distributing at 1080p. I don't want to get caught up with delaying the weapon 8k by requirements for budgets that are about 1000x bigger then mine, but on the flip side I really appreciate riding the back of people like you and the major guys, I couldn't do what I'm doing without riding on the big guys wake.

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

You want Perspective....?
That Canon 50mp sensor.... 5 frames per second.
The Sony 100mp medium format sensor... 1.5 frames per second.
RED WEAPON 8K .... 60 frames per second ( 75 fps widescreen )

Functionality is not disputed, we were discussing delivery problems. Size is the primary factor, frame rate or complexity has negligible effect on sensor yield. Sensor yield has been the reason given for failure to ship 8k upgrades.

Estimating based on towerjazz specs - 300mm wafer size, 3mm edge loss, .25/cm^2 defect density

Die yield estimate using negative binomial model:

Sony 100mp MF, 53.40x40mm = 3.5% yield, 18 candidates, 1 good per wafer

Weapon 8k, 40.96x21.60mm = 16.2% yield, 54 candidates, 9 good per wafer

Raven, 23.40x10.8mm = 55% yield, 224 candidates, 123 good per wafer

Fabricating 5 wafers Red could:

Clear the 45 names on this 8k queue page which brought in $450,000 back in april of last year

or with same 5 wafers Red could sell 615 new raven packages = $6,734,250 of new money

If the company used for fabrication was not so great and defect density doubled to .5/cm^2 , that would be 3 good Weapon 8k per wafer vs 72 Raven, 15 wafers to clear this 45 name 8k list vs 1080 Ravens, $450,000 vs $11.8 million in sales.

Borrow $450k from a bank for a year, at the end of the year the bank wants its money.
Borrow $450k from customers, you have more wiggle room.

I can appreciate the shrewd business strategy, its just not very fair to those who pre-paid for 8k upgrades 6 months before Raven was announced. I didn't criticize at all during the extended dragon upgrade process, because it was just a name on a list, pre-paying for a product demands more accountability.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Functionality is not disputed, we were discussing delivery problems. Size is the primary factor, frame rate or complexity has negligible effect on sensor yield. Sensor yield has been the reason given for failure to ship 8k upgrades.

That's one large piece of stupid that just rolled off your keyboard there. To the contrary, size is only one of many factors that impacts yield and is only an aggregator of all other factors. And maintaining greater functional consistency across larger wafer samples has everything to do with complexity. Frame rates, or sustainable frame rates being more apt here, is also a product of that complexity.

If I make a dumb-ass assumption that your Sony MF 100MP sensor yield is correct, as I have no desire to go check up on that, then I would say RED is probably doing alright by comparison. That sensor is a far simpler and less capable design than Dragon. All it has going for it is size. Even with that, it's a super expensive bugger and that's even after they're shipping more of those than RED ever will of these 8K Dragon sensors, by several times over.

What does this have to do with Raven? 8K sensor production still remains the priority, even over filling all those Raven orders.

You keep referencing the list of 45 people in this thread. You're not on that list. Do you have an 8K upgrade ordered and paid for? Or are you just trying to be a champion for those of us who do?

 

[Antony Newman]

Christopher,

Do you think there might be a design difference between the 1.5 fps Sony sensor and the 60 fps RED sensor that might contribute to reject rate?

Example
+) A higher sensor frame rate is proportional to a higher I/O rate of data ... which might be proportional to the Current Drive of one of the layers of the sensor.
+) The Power utilised is proportional the square of the current
+) Any nanometer misplacement of each subsequent sensor layer will affect the capacitive (timing) and restive load (current drive).

For RED sensors to run 40 times the frame rate of the Sony ... they probably need far more exacting tolerances in their multi-layer fabrication of the sensor?

Without knowledge of their design, or an understanding of the issues affecting yield - I don't believe it would be fair to compare their sensor to any other companies.

AJ

 

[Jarred Land]

Functionality is not disputed, we were discussing delivery problems. Size is the primary factor, frame rate or complexity has negligible effect on sensor yield. Sensor yield has been the reason given for failure to ship 8k upgrades.

Estimating based on towerjazz specs - 300mm wafer size, 3mm edge loss, .25/cm^2 defect density

Die yield estimate using negative binomial model:

Sony 100mp MF, 53.40x40mm = 3.5% yield, 18 candidates, 1 good per wafer

Weapon 8k, 40.96x21.60mm = 16.2% yield, 54 candidates, 9 good per wafer

Raven, 23.40x10.8mm = 55% yield, 224 candidates, 123 good per wafer

Fabricating 5 wafers Red could:

Clear the 45 names on this 8k queue page which brought in $450,000 back in april of last year

or with same 5 wafers Red could sell 615 new raven packages = $6,734,250 of new money

If the company used for fabrication was not so great and defect density doubled to .5/cm^2 , that would be 3 good Weapon 8k per wafer vs 72 Raven, 15 wafers to clear this 45 name 8k list vs 1080 Ravens, $450,000 vs $11.8 million in sales.

Borrow $450k from a bank for a year, at the end of the year the bank wants its money.
Borrow $450k from customers, you have more wiggle room.

I can appreciate the shrewd business strategy, its just not very fair to those who pre-paid for 8k upgrades 6 months before Raven was announced. I didn't criticize at all during the extended dragon upgrade process, because it was just a name on a list, pre-paying for a product demands more accountability.

Pretty much everything you said is wrong.

But regardless since your so upset we will will look up your order, cancel it and give you a refund.

Anyone that does not like waiting should not even consider getting an 8k because the wait is real and that's not gonna change anytime soon.