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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon 8k Queue

One of the reasons I never place myself in any of this lists...

Exactly because I don't wish to be part of a Thread that it always seems to DEGRADE thanks to some one that fills an earned right to bash on Professionals and a Company that has done their absolute best to be as Transparent as allowed in a ever competitive industry where Corporate Espionage is real, and where an envelope for higher technology is pushed to its very limit...

8K has been stated several times... Over and Over with extreme clarity to be the most difficult thing RED has ever done +1000...

I am not surprise a bit of Jarred's response to your continued insulting posts "Christopher"... In which you make some truly nonsense mathematic calculations and silly assumptions that could not be further from actuality.


But this is I guess the nature of the WEB... Learned that lesson awhile ago...

I'm sorry to those at RED that are working there asses off at a range of stupid hours to continue to push the envelope and that you have to endure some of such posts here...
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
Size is the primary factor, frame rate or complexity has negligible effect on sensor yield. Sensor yield has been the reason given for failure to ship 8k upgrades.
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
To the contrary, size is only one of many factors that impacts yield and is only an aggregator of all other factors. And maintaining greater functional consistency across larger wafer samples has everything to do with complexity. Frame rates, or sustainable frame rates being more apt here, is also a product of that complexity.
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What Jeff said.

Specifically when taking into account "pixel quality" on faster readouts and integration times having high standards in regards to "qualifying" a sensor is needed.
 
I feel like before someone writes a scathing post to Jarred, Brent or the RED team in general, they should be made to fill out a diagram of how the internals of the camera work.

You can literally read several threads here where Jarred talks about how incredibly difficult it is to make a single sensor. It's kinda like building small space shuttles by hand and occasionally one goes on the fritz from what I understand. They don't just print these out on a wafer machine. There isn't a chinese factory next to Foxconn making these. These. Are. One. Off. As of right now.

I'm on the forum to learn and connect with people. It's hella annoying to hear people give crap about a project that is far far beyond it's time. Jarred talking directly to anyone is like Tim Cook replying to customers.

Respect what he's got going on and the immensity of the project.
 
Jarred Land said:
Pretty much everything you said is wrong.

But regardless since your so upset we will will look up your order, cancel it and give you a refund.

Anyone that does not like waiting should not even consider getting an 8k because the wait is real and that's not gonna change anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Do not do that, please. It is an emotional reaction that, while understandable, is not worthy of You....You are bigger than that...Let it go...Let it goooo...

I think I understand your frustration with people that you feel do not grasp the complexity of what you are all ways trying to do as a company and thus the people within the company and their integrity.

I have worked as a DP for 26 years shooting commercials, and I have met hundreds of people, questioning my integrity.

It is obvious to any grown-up that you and your company have great integrity, and that you pride yourself with exactly that.

These agressive tactics are unbecoming, unsexy, and scares off real users that might be somewhat critical....


My answer to the moron would be: "It seems like you are very unhappy with the way things are progressing. We would be happy to cancel your order and give you a refund, if you should so wish."

End of story...

Elegance and grace is not a bad thing, especially when you have the upper hand.

(I am not in the 8K qeue, but a very happy costumer from R1 up to and including the great and mature "Weapon"MG(hate the name...deeply embarrassing...my 10 year old son who plays COD3 thinks its childish)
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
Functionality is not disputed, we were discussing delivery problems. Size is the primary factor, frame rate or complexity has negligible effect on sensor yield. Sensor yield has been the reason given for failure to ship 8k upgrades.

Estimating based on towerjazz specs - 300mm wafer size, 3mm edge loss, .25/cm^2 defect density

Die yield estimate using negative binomial model:

Sony 100mp MF, 53.40x40mm = 3.5% yield, 18 candidates, 1 good per wafer

Weapon 8k, 40.96x21.60mm = 16.2% yield, 54 candidates, 9 good per wafer

Raven, 23.40x10.8mm = 55% yield, 224 candidates, 123 good per wafer

Fabricating 5 wafers Red could:

Clear the 45 names on this 8k queue page which brought in $450,000 back in april of last year

or with same 5 wafers Red could sell 615 new raven packages = $6,734,250 of new money

If the company used for fabrication was not so great and defect density doubled to .5/cm^2 , that would be 3 good Weapon 8k per wafer vs 72 Raven, 15 wafers to clear this 45 name 8k list vs 1080 Ravens, $450,000 vs $11.8 million in sales.

Borrow $450k from a bank for a year, at the end of the year the bank wants its money.
Borrow $450k from customers, you have more wiggle room.

I can appreciate the shrewd business strategy, its just not very fair to those who pre-paid for 8k upgrades 6 months before Raven was announced. I didn't criticize at all during the extended dragon upgrade process, because it was just a name on a list, pre-paying for a product demands more accountability.
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You understand that RED is a privately held corporation funded by Jim J who has no need to "Borrow $450k from customers". With a Forbes stated net worth of $4B . . . that $450K is like .0001% of net worth or some such thing. That's like $5.10 on the average American Household Annual Income of $51K. You know, the price of a fancy Starbucks drink. Your logic is flawed and you are a Muppet kind sir.
 
Zeb B said:
You understand that RED is a privately held corporation funded by Jim J who has no need to "Borrow $450k from customers". With a Forbes stated net worth of $4B . . . that $450K is like .0001% of net worth or some such thing. That's like $5.10 on the average American Household Annual Income of $51K. You know, the price of a fancy Starbucks drink.
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Agree

Jens Jakob Thorsen said:
Do not do that, please. It is an emotional reaction that, while understandable, is not worthy of You....You are bigger than that...Let it go...Let it goooo...

I think I understand your frustration with people that you feel do not grasp the complexity of what you are all ways trying to do as a company and thus the people within the company and their integrity.

I have worked as a DP for 26 years shooting commercials, and I have met hundreds of people, questioning my integrity.

It is obvious to any grown-up that you and your company have great integrity, and that you pride yourself with exactly that.

These agressive tactics are unbecoming, unsexy, and scares off real users that might be somewhat critical....


My answer would be: "It seems like you are very unhappy with the way things are progressing. We would be happy to cancel your order and give you a refund, if you should so wish."

End of story...

Elegance and grace is not a bad thing, especially when you have the upper hand.
Click to expand...

And also agree. It has been ingrained in our thinking via movies and TV that conspiracies exist everywhere, so I blame the poster's suspicious nature on the times. Like you state above, the poster should have the option of withdrawing from the queue, but shouldn't be pushed off unless he continues to accuse RED of blatant dishonesty.

A warning shot across the bow before a torpedo amidships would be a fitting approach, IMO.
 
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Jarred Land said:
Pretty much everything you said is wrong.

But regardless since your so upset we will will look up your order, cancel it and give you a refund.

Anyone that does not like waiting should not even consider getting an 8k because the wait is real and that's not gonna change anytime soon.
Click to expand...

I will happily take that spot...
 
I don't understand the complaining. There was never a promise for a quick 8K delivery. Quite the contrary. Where did this confusion come from?
 
Jeffrey M said:
I don't understand the complaining. There was never a promise for a quick 8K delivery. Quite the contrary. Where did this confusion come from?
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Impatience breeds frustration. In this case, since the 8K Weapon is a mountain of a sensor and camera to manufacture with the potential and desire of the camera being so high, it certainly transforms expectations. The pre-orders have been made and certainly many are hungry for it.

RED and Jarred have been very clear that this would be "a hell of a thing to do" from the get go. About a month before NAB 2015 I got a small taste of the utter hell that is the difficulty level of making something like this from Jarred.

At NAB 2016, this year, even other camera manufacturers who are driving towards 8K took note of RED's efforts on this front as they are experiencing other levels of hell themselves.

This is bleeding edge technology when it comes down to it.

For me what's impressive is that it is a "real production" camera and won't end up as vaporware or fall by the wayside. Hell I've shot with the prototype and seen a glimpse of what the final production version can be. Jarred even apologized back in January because he said once I shot with the 8K I'd want more. More waiting was on the horizon 4 months ago, but it's getting closer. And damn he's right that I do want more.
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
Canon has no problem making 50mp sensors
Sony is cranking out 100mp medium format sensors for Phase One and now Hasselblad.
Click to expand...

Christopher, I want to jump ship and shoot with the Canon FF 8K camera now! Also, I will buy one of Sony's, do you know who should I wire the money and how long is shipping supposed to take?

Joke aside, I remember Canon announcing a 4K 30fps, C300 MK2, in April 2015 , which shipped in September. Even to make a 4K, 30fps, Super35mm camera takes time, even for Canon that you seem to look at as being the standard in this industry. (which is not)

As I understand, the 10K pre-order is not a "loan" to RED, I don't think they need loans, as others have stated. It means you just bought yourself a place in front of a lot of people for when this incredibly high-tech stuff starts shipping. And you did that some time ago, BUT, with a huge discount. Which bank offers 100% interest so that you can turn that 10K in 20K like you did by jumping in the que in the first place?

Jarred, please don't take him of the list, just offer the option for someone to buy his spot. I am sure a LOT of people will offer to buy an 8K upgrade, saving 10K USD, getting way ahead in the que and just waiting for the new tech to be available, shooting great great great stuff in the meantime, in 6K with a bigger than Super35mm sized sensor.
 
Only reason I asked was my clients are asking and I don't want to market 8k coming "soon" when soon is a year away.

I'll just tell them "coming when it ready"
 
It would be most helpful to have a set delivery date, but that's just not how it is.

Had a chance to see the 8K sensor with a Hawk65 lens at NAB. Was impressed at how natural the geometry of the scene looked. I started thinking about aspects of larger format capture that I had not been paying attention to.

Cheers - #19
 
Reminds me of the good old days. Waited a year and a half, a few adjustments for the first few cams, a few more tweaks- then pure magic. Some of us have half a dozen 8k's coming, don't mind the wait... I can feel the magic brewing again.
 
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