Titanium...

[Justin O'Neill]

Jarred,

I dont see any flange distance adjustment...
Is this done by the inside of the camera ?

Flange distance is controlled inside the camera:

Epic and Scarlet you adjust via 2 screws with an allen key through the side of the body. One screw to adjust, one screw to lock/unlock.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I think Jarred said the raw material is 18x the price of Aluminium. But raw material is only a small part of the cost ie, if 6oz. of aluminium is 2 bucks ( just a guess) then the same amount of titanium would be $36. He didn't say the mount would cost 18x more. I am sure the titanium mount is signifactly more, but probably due to manufacturing costs as Jarred mentioned. At any rate I would guess it to be a few hundred dollars more. My 2 cents.

 

[Robert Frank]

At any rate I would guess it to be a few hundred dollars more. My 2 cents.

$1500 for the Stainless, $2500 for the Titanium.

3 to 5 times more than the aluminum PL mount.

 

[Robert Frank]

Jarred, has RED decided if the Canon and Nikon mounts for Epic will be available in SS and Ti?

 

[Dane Brehm]

Finally a real Mount and if looks could kill....

 

[Damien Molineaux]

Originally Posted by Mark Andersen View Post
At any rate I would guess it to be a few hundred dollars more. My 2 cents

Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
$1500 for the Stainless, $2500 for the Titanium.

3 to 5 times more than the aluminum PL mount.

I'm really disapointed to see these types of options appear. One of the big costs of such accessories, is making many versions. If titanium, is really much better, then Red should only make a titanium mount, or maybe only stainless steel. Isn't it about making the best camera possible, then why have a not so good mount, and have to pay more for the good one. We will then have some cameras with aluminium mounts, some with stainless steel, some with titanium. If all cameras have the same mount, if there is only one type made, costs of production are down, and the overall cost of the better mount is cheaper than if it is only an option, which only some will order, and Red has to make three different types.

I expect more from Red, or is that just wishful thinking.

Damien

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Roberto, you are one crazy dude.

Hey, I can dream! And some of my wild ideas turn out to be great, after a deep polish of course.

I suppose (to add to the uber-long list of reasons why that wouldn't make any sense) you would also have to consider that the silica pellets might let out silica dust... lol... it sounded great at inception anyway. xP

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'm really disapointed to see these types of options appear. One of the big costs of such accessories, is making many versions. If titanium, is really much better, then Red should only make a titanium mount, or maybe only stainless steel. Isn't it about making the best camera possible, then why have a not so good mount, and have to pay more for the good one. We will then have some cameras with aluminium mounts, some with stainless steel, some with titanium. If all cameras have the same mount, if there is only one type made, costs of production are down, and the overall cost of the better mount is cheaper than if it is only an option, which only some will order, and Red has to make three different types.

I expect more from Red, or is that just wishful thinking.

Damien

Consider, for a moment, the possibility that making different versions (I might argue with your characterization of "many") will not cost significantly more. Perhaps they can be milled on the same machines by the same workers - maybe just taking the raw material from a different bin. Even if some change to the machinery is necessary, maybe it can be done quickly and the different versions are manufactured on alternate days. There are many ways to create efficiency. Somehow, I think these are the types of things that Jim and RED can handle. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't be all that eager to offer options. Just my 2 cents. :closedeyes:

 

[rod bradley]

Damien, I would suggest you are getting more from Red -- a choice -- so you can make a choice as to what is appropriate to your budget, needs, shooting situation.

Why you would be disappointed in options baffles me. Part of the "revolution" of Red is the price point -- and there will be people that will be using the camera primarily with a Nikon or Canon mount, with maybe only an occasional use of PL mount. For them, a $500 aluminum PL mount (unless budget is irrelevant to them) will be quite attractive and beneficial. Nobody is stopping anyone from purchasing the Titanium mount for $2500 -- and I doubt whether that price is primarily a factor of scale. Red Epics are not going out there in the millions -- or even 100's of thousands.

 

[Brian Petrie]

Eh, I don't see production cost changing too much because of making three different mounts. These mounts are not cast or forged but most likely individually CNC machined so it's not like they are being produced in a huge production batches. Therefore, the only increase in production costs between the three mounts is the actual material cost inlcuding the extra wear on bits for the harder metals and probably a little more machine time. So it wouldn't really make the Ti mounts any cheaper if that was the only one material they were produced in. Good job RED, I like options. Plus it looks awesome! HaHa but that's just my opinion I may be wrong

 

[Lee Saxon]

I'm really disapointed to see these types of options appear. One of the big costs of such accessories, is making many versions. If titanium, is really much better, then Red should only make a titanium mount, or maybe only stainless steel. Isn't it about making the best camera possible, then why have a not so good mount, and have to pay more for the good one. We will then have some cameras with aluminium mounts, some with stainless steel, some with titanium. If all cameras have the same mount, if there is only one type made, costs of production are down, and the overall cost of the better mount is cheaper than if it is only an option, which only some will order, and Red has to make three different types.

I expect more from Red, or is that just wishful thinking.

Damien

I think you're looking at this just flat out wrong.


Theoretically you're right about different tooling and slower production increasing costs, and if the titanium was the only mount offered, they could sell it for maybe $2475 instead of $2500.

But according to this thread it seems that titanium is better in 0.01% of circumstances (EXTREME temperatures and possibly also EXTREMELY heavy lenses) and offers no benefit in 99.99% of circumstances.

Saving 0.01% of your customers $25 is not worth forcing the other 99.9% to waste $1975. Red absolutely made the right call offering it as an option for those few that need it.

Edit : Ooops, by the time I'd typed this a couple people had already covered all the same ground. Oh well...

 

[Travis Moulton]

Lookin' good!

 

[Lee Saxon]

So what is the stainless version designed for?

Is it a lesser version of the advantages offered by the titanium for those that can't swing $2500/mount, or is it for a whole different set of circumstances?

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Two Dumb Questions for the day ...

Two Dumb Questions for the day ...

$1500 for the Stainless, $2500 for the Titanium.

So here are my two dumb questions for the day:

1. So are there three mount options then? (Aluminum, Stainless Steel, Titanium)
2. Those prices, are they the total cost (If you were to just buy the mount, so in actuality, if we went from the Aluminum mount to the titanium, and the aluminum cost $500, then we would end up paying less- like $1000 total), or the upgrade cost (that is the price for the upgrade)?

Hopefully that makes sense and is not as clear as mud ...

 

[Damien Molineaux]

Jarred mentioned how it was more difficult to make the titanium mounts, so I would think it's not the same process to make aluminium or titanium mounts. These products need to be tested, the fabrication process needs to be thoroughly worked out and approved. They need to deal with the ordering of theses different options, stocking the raw ressources, and the finished products, acording to demand. I estimate a great part of the price difference is due to having three options. And indeed, because Epics are not going out in millions or even 100s of thousands, is why having many options of PL mounts is expensive to make. I like options, and that's what Epic is all about, but didn't Red say good enough is not good enough. If they are developing stainless steel and titanium mounts, it is because aluminium is not good enough. Cameras with alumium mounts have a risk of their back focus changing due to heat, this influences on our image making, I don't like it.

Now, I think what Red is doing is great. I love my Red camera, for the images I can make with it, and I thank Red for allowing me to have the option of owning such a piece of equipment.

But I think at some point too many choices are just that, TOO many. The too many is when you have to make a financial verses quality or reliability decision. I like options of recording formats, recording media, form factor, modules and modularity, Canon, Nikon and other mounts, yes. But not good enough aluminium mount because it is cheaper. And my point is, if Red decided to forgo aluminium and have all the cameras come with stainless steel mounts (and please don't call them SS), it would not cost that much more.

Hey, it's my 2 cents. Please allow me to have my opinion. Red is obviously a business, and if they're offering these options, it's because there's a profit to be made. If it was only about making the best camera, then you make it the best. Of course, we need for Red to be profitable, and it's all about balancing costs verses quality, but sometimes this is to the customers detriment, I get the feeling this is one of these instances.

When you read abouth these options, what do you want to do ? Me, I want to get one of these, because it's better. My impression is the product (Epic) is but out imperfect (great, but imperfect), and you get to make it perfect, for a premium. These mounts are going to sell like hot cakes. Does Red really need to make money that bad ? That's the real question.

Cheers,
Damien

PS I'm getting ready to dive under the table...
PPS Under my bed actually, as it is quite late this side of the pond, I'll check back tomorrow, see how scorched I am, good night.

 

[Rémi Sello]

If it was only about making the best camera, then you make it the best. [...] Me, I want to get one of these, because it's better. My impression is the product (Epic) is but out imperfect (great, but imperfect), and you get to make it perfect, for a premium.

So Scarlet is imperfect because there's Epic ? Red One are imperfects because there's Red One MX ? Small cars are imperfects because there's SUV ?

Different needs, different budgets, different solutions. You choose ! :hurray:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Cost of Aluminium vs Titanium on the scales we're talking about here are probably mostly irrelevant.

I doubt they're using more than $100 of titanium unless it's some really exotic alloy.

The costs I'm sure are almost exclusively associated with difficulties in machining. Difficulties in machining and increased defect rates don't just magically go away with increased production volume. Even if it was equally 'easy' if I remember correctly from my ME friends it takes a lot longer to mill since it has to be done at a lower speed to keep temperatures down.*

*Not a mechanical engineer.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I've handled the Epic with the titanium mount - it is 100% bad ass. I will do titanium on all Offhollywood's Epics. I do not think everyone really needs it - but - our RED ONE's have shot in 10 countries - in extreme temperature conditions - I'm actually amazed they are still shooting almost every single day. I'm sure our Epics will do the same. Also, if your gear is in rental ... you don't have any way of knowing if the AC really does know how to support and mount a 24-290 or other heavy lens correctly. I have watched in horror more than once as ACs put unnecessary pressure on the PL mount. Maybe it's more the "cool factor" - but I will sleep better knowing the mounts on our cameras are titanium.

 

[Joe Kleber]

Can I get matching titanium side plates to go with the titanium mount??? :emote_popcorn:

 

[Peter Matthes]

I think a good analogy is the Jeep Wrangler line of vehicles.

Jeep offers the Wrangler X (or Sport), which is their base model.
They offer a Sahara package with several added options.
They offer an Islander package with other added options.
They also offer the super beefed up, and more expensive, Rubicon package.

They do this, because some people will be driving their Jeep to and from the mall / supermarket, while others will be rock crawling.

If you are going to be driving over fallen trees and large rocks, you will more than likely want the Rubicon package. Its suspension is significantly more durable and it has added underside protection.

If you are going to stay on paved roads, and you have less money to spend, you will more than likely be fine with the Sport package.

That doesn't mean that you won't see a soccer mom in a Jeep Rubicon.
It also doesn't mean that you won't see someone beating the crap out of their Jeep Wrangler-X (Sport) off-road.

Mark makes the perfect arguement here:

I do not think everyone really needs it - but - our RED ONE's have shot in 10 countries - in extreme temperature conditions ... Also, if your gear is in rental ... you don't have any way of knowing if the AC really does know how to support and mount a 24-290 or other heavy lens correctly.

The same objection to options could be applied to the Redmote Pro vs. the standard Redmote.
The same objections could be made towards the Pro I/O module vs. the Base I/O module.

Should we only have one size of LCD?

Of course not.

The Epic and Scarlet lines are ALL ABOUT choices, and the ability to configure the camera in a way that best suits the user.

Having options is never a bad thing. :thumbup: