Titanium...

[Meryem Ersoz]

that mount is a work of art.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Titanium reacts to other compounds easily. It might be okay for a lens mount, but I would hesitate in using it as a chassis material. Regardless of the practicalities of cost in manufacturing, Titanium requires maintenance. It can't come into contact with ordinary tap water, so you have to clean it using distilled water or you get surface pitting. Try keeping such contaminants off the body itself in normal use. I'd like to see a solid carbon body.

Jeff, I have no idea where you're getting this from. Titanium is used all the time in wet, normally corrosive environments b/c it is non-recativity. E.g. inside people for hip replacements, spine supports, head plates. I'd like to see a distilled H2O human body.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Remember, the mounts on Epic and Scarlet are attached with four screws only, so even if one were damaged, there wouldn't be a need to send the entire camera back (unless the screw taps were somehow destroyed as well?).

I'm sure Red has already got this physics stuff well in the bag as to what would break first to save the most expensive part (kind of like low speed car crash engineering principles) and save having to ship the camera somewhere for repair.

Also, interesting note here on the fact that titanium can't come in contact with regular water. Something to think about if you're shooting in the rain.... though again, I'm sure Red has an answer for that too!

Personally I will equip our Epics with the standard aluminium mounts as I've had no issues on our Red Ones, plus I intend to swap to the Canon mount fairly often as that's my lens goto kit for my own shooting.

Cheers for all the info and yes, it's good to have choices

Paul

 

[Robert Frank]

Also, interesting note here on the fact that titanium can't come in contact with regular water. Something to think about if you're shooting in the rain.... though again, I'm sure Red has an answer for that too!

How can this be true? What about the high end bicycles made of titanium? I was big into mountain biking awhile ago and road a few Litespeed bikes made of Ti, in the woods, through streams, and mud, etc. Hosed off the bike with a garden hose and it looked like new.

Although these were titanium alloys if I remember. Is the RED Ti mount an alloy?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Also, interesting note here on the fact that titanium can't come in contact with regular water. Something to think about if you're shooting in the rain.... though again, I'm sure Red has an answer for that too!

Paul

Now, now. The RED User thread should not be used to spread false information, rumors or innuendo (Though that could pass for fun on a slow night!)

Although there are hundreds of reference articles easily available to dispel this information, the following obtained from the Titanium Metals Corporation should cover most, if any concerns:

_____________________-

CORROSION PROPERTIES

GENERAL

Titanium and its alloys provide excellent resistance to general and localized attack under most oxidizing, neutral and inhibited reducing conditions in aqueous environments. They also remain passive under mildly reducing conditions, although they may be attacked by strongly reducing or complexing media. Titanium is especially known for its outstanding resistance to chlorides and other halides generally present in most process streams.

Titanium's corrosion resistance is due to a stable, protective, strongly adherent oxide film which forms instantly when a fresh surface is exposed to air or moisture. This passive film is typically less than 250 A. (A, an angstrom, is 4 x 10^-9 in.) Film growth is accelerated under strongly oxidizing conditions such as in HNO3 and CrO3 (nitric acid, chromic acid), etc. media.

The composition of this film varies from TiO2 at the surface to Ti2O3 to TiO at the metal interface. Oxidizing conditions promote the formation of TiO2. This film is transparent in its normal thin configuration and not detectable by visual means.

A study of the corrosion resistance of titanium is basically a study of the properties of the oxide film. The oxide film on titanium is very stable and is attacked only by a few substances including hot concentrated reducing acids, most notably, hydrofluoric acid. Titanium is capable of healing this film almost instantaneously in every environment where a trace of moisture or oxygen is present because of titanium's strong affinity for oxygen.

Anhydrous conditions in the absence of a source of oxygen should be avoided since the protective film may not be regenerated if damaged.

RESISTANCE TO WATERS

FRESH WATER - STEAM
Titanium resists all forms of corrosive attack by fresh water and steam to temperatures as high as 600 degrees F (316 degrees C). The corrosion rate is very low and a slight weight gain is generally experienced. Titanium surfaces are likely to acquire a tarnished appearance in hot water or steam but will be free of corrosion.

Some natural river waters contain manganese which deposits as manganese dioxide on heat exchanger surfaces. This is harmful and promotes pitting in both austenitic stainless steels and copper alloys. Chlorination treatments used to control sliming result in severe pitting and crevice corrosion on stainless steel surfaces. Titanium is immune to these forms of corrosion and is an ideal material for handling all natural waters.

SEAWATER - GENERAL CORROSION
Titanium resists corrosion by seawater to temperatures as high as 500 degrees F (260 degrees C). Titanium tubing which has been exposed to seawater for many years at depths of over a mile shows no measurable corrosion. It has provided over twenty five years of trouble-free seawater service for the chemical, oil refining and desalination industries. Pitting and crevice corrosion are totally absent, even when marine deposits form. The presence of sulfides in seawater does not affect the resistance of titanium to corrosion. Exposure of titanium to marine atmospheres or splash or tidal zones does not cause corrosion.

EROSION
Titanium has the ability to resist erosion by high velocity seawater. Velocities as high as 120 ft./sec. cause only minimal rise in the erosion rate. The presence of abrasive particles, such as sand, has only a small effect on the corrosion resistance of titanium under conditions that are extremely detrimental to copper and aluminum base alloys. Titanium is considered one of the best cavitation-resistant materials available for seawater service.

_____________________

A note after rereading the section on resistance to water corrosion - if any of us are planning on subjecting our EPIC's to water conditions measured in hundreds of degrees, I suspect that not only would the finish on the lens mount be the least of our concerns, but we might have a warranty problem as well. (Jarred - is it worth a disclaimer?)

 

[Elsie N]

What if the Titanium mount were powder coated? It would lose the cool factor but would it still retain the functionality that is desired?

 

[Curran Giddens]

Titanium is used all the time in wet, normally corrosive environments b/c it is non-recativity. E.g. inside people for hip replacements, spine supports, head plates.

Yeah, I don't think there is any special coating on my titanium mountain bike. It is like 15 years old and still looks great.

My main reason for wanting Ti instead of Al is my old Red One's PL mount got a bit scuffed up.

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[Jeff Kilgroe]

Also, interesting note here on the fact that titanium can't come in contact with regular water. Something to think about if you're shooting in the rain.... though again, I'm sure Red has an answer for that too!

What are you talking about? Titanium does just fine in water. I have plenty of underwater gear made from titanium -- knives, clips, buckles, brackets, housings, etc.. Work just fine in both fresh and salt water, heavily chlorinated pools, too.. It's resistive against most common acids, bromides, etc.. Next to gold, titanium is one of the most corrosive-resistant metals. There is one way to corrode titanium, I'll give you guys a hint, the most common form of corroded titanium is titanium dioxide. But you'll have plenty of other problems to worry about before your titanium mount corrodes away.

Oh, well... At least I know if I spill mercury on my titanium mount it will be OK. Because you know, when I spill mercury on anything made of aluminum, it simply melts away....

Really though, this thread is taking a turn towards stupid.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Jarred: It appears that mount changes are simple - just removing the 4 screws.

Does this mean we will be allowed to swap mounts ourselves and make our own alternative mounts - i.e FD, Contax-Yashica, M42, Pentax 645, etc. without voiding the warranty if we have the facilities to do so? (As I do. In house CNC Haas VF-1, Habegger/schaublin and other lathes, etc.)

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Hey Michael, Epic mounts have been slated to be easily replaced by the user since the first announcement, so yes. BTW, are you ever gonna send me that AquaVideo receipt? It's been only 6 months, 10 requests, and multiple promises from you ever since that small purchase... I am finding it very annoying to have to keep remind you with no results.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

What if the Titanium mount were powder coated? It would lose the cool factor but would it still retain the functionality that is desired?

Before I answer this, Jeff, you are right - this has taken a bizarre turn - Yogi would be proud; the thread found a fork and took it.

Never-the-less, I need to address the idea of powder coating the titanium mount:

First, You have the best material for a lens interface with it's own natural protective passive oxide film and you want to powder coat it? (why)?

Second, powder coatings begin to deteriorate when exposed to uv rays after 5 to 10 years in normal environmental conditions. Not unusual to have a little extra UV on film sets. Titanium without any powder coating will deliver consistent results far longer.

Third, powder coatings are not easily applied as a thin, texture free layer - it has a tendency to achieve a smooth surface only with thicker particles - that means that film build-ups of greater than 50 μm may be required to obtain an acceptably smooth film. (That is why many manufacturers use powder coating - it allows them to hide surface defects on the metal)
Note: There are alternate methods such as powder slurry which can produce film layers under 30 μm, but again, why bother - titanium creates it's own protective layer when exposed to oxygen. I've run into air on most of my shoots - expect that to continue.

Fourth, if you begin adding a powder coating "layer", you add another dimensional variable to the lens mount interface. I'll trust precision CNC machining to a spray when it comes to delivering precise tolerances.

Fifth, why add another cost to the manufacturing process if there is no net benefit and only potential issues?


If anything (and this really belongs as a separate post) - I would prefer Stainless Steel as standard on EPIC, Aluminum as standard on Scarlet. That would be in line with differentiating one line from the other.
And yes, keep the Ti option there for EPIC owners.

 

[Elsie N]

Before I answer this, Jeff, you are right - this has taken a bizarre turn - Yogi would be proud; the thread found a fork and took it.

Never-the-less, I need to address the idea of powder coating the titanium mount:

First, You have the best material for a lens interface with it's own natural protective passive oxide film and you want to powder coat it? (why)?

Second, powder coatings begin to deteriorate when exposed to uv rays after 5 to 10 years in normal environmental conditions. Not unusual to have a little extra UV on film sets. Titanium without any powder coating will deliver consistent results far longer.

Third, powder coatings are not easily applied as a thin, texture free layer - it has a tendency to achieve a smooth surface only with thicker particles - that means that film build-ups of greater than 50 μm may be required to obtain an acceptably smooth film. (That is why many manufacturers use powder coating - it allows them to hide surface defects on the metal)
Note: There are alternate methods such as powder slurry which can produce film layers under 30 μm, but again, why bother - titanium creates it's own protective layer when exposed to oxygen. I've run into air on most of my shoots - expect that to continue.

Fourth, if you begin adding a powder coating "layer", you add another dimensional variable to the lens mount interface. I'll trust precision CNC machining to a spray when it comes to delivering precise tolerances.

Fifth, why add another cost to the manufacturing process if there is no net benefit and only potential issues?


If anything (and this really belongs as a separate post) - I would prefer Stainless Steel as standard on EPIC, Aluminum as standard on Scarlet. That would be in line with differentiating one line from the other.
And yes, keep the Ti option there for EPIC owners.

So, you are against powder coating. So what are your views on ultra-hard ceramic coatings?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Hey Michael, Epic mounts have been slated to be easily replaced by the user since the first announcement, so yes.

Yes, I understand that mounts are user replaceable, but I would like confirmation - from RED (the question was specifically addressed to Jarred) - that the design simplicity is such that alternative mounts can be made by others and used/replaced without the warranty implications/restrictions that were placed on the R1 for FD/EF etc. (other than if you damage it through improper installation or negligence then obviously it isn't covered under warranty.)

BTW, are you ever gonna send me that AquaVideo receipt? It's been only 6 months, 10 requests, and multiple promises from you ever since that small purchase... I am finding it very annoying to have to remind you with no results.

I'm not sure why this thread is the place for this, but the sale of the Tokina 11-16 Canon EF lens (which I bought through B&H) was a personal one through paypal - with a paypal invoice as reflected in the info I copied below from Paypal. I am not sure exactly what was said, but IIRC the idea of being able to give you an AquaVideo invoice was if you had a warranty problem since AquaVideo has been a THK dealer in the past. But unless you are having such a problem, I would rather not muck up AquaVideo accounting by issuing an AV invoice. You said you need it for tax purposes and the paypal invoice should be fine for that.



10/7/2009 USD 580.00 -17.12 562.88
Payment Received : roberto lequeux
ID: 6BF726613F5273147
Completed
........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
10/6/2009 USD 580.00 0.00 580.00
Paypal Invoice Request Sent : roberto lequeux
Paid

 

[Elsie N]

Yeah, I don't think there is any special coating on my titanium mountain bike. It is like 15 years old and still looks great.

My main reason for wanting Ti instead of Al is my old Red One's PL mount got a bit scuffed up.

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Curran, you shoulda had it powder coated.:001_tt1:

 

[Michael Hastings]

Curran, you shoulda had it powder coated.:001_tt1:

Are anybody's (i.e. Arri, Aaton, Panavision, etc.) mounts powder coated (other than maybe on the outside)?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Michael, so a paypal invoice would be all I need? I wish you would have said that earlier. I don't buy a lot of equipment, and didn't know how to keep track of it. I will do that. I just didn't understand why my multiple requests invariably led to a promise, followed by a silence...

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

Great news. Lots of affordable Leica's out there.

 

[Elsie N]

Are anybody's (i.e. Arri, Aaton, Panavision, etc.) mounts powder coated (other than maybe on the outside)?

Michael, Bryan has already shot down my powder coating idea. I was just thinking that Curran's ugly PL mount could have benefited from a powder coating make-over.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I just didn't understand why my multiple requests invariably led me to a promise, followed by a silence.

Well, that's just 'cause I'm a fu..up sometimes - . You had a right to be a little annoyed.

 

[Martin Weiss]

What's that PM button for again?