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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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Jarred,
I know the exact specs shall be announced on the 11th, but I have 1 question about framerates that would help me plan things ahead and decide which button I plan on pushing on that day, as things will have to go pretty fast come that moment.

You already said that Epic-W will be able to do 8K at 30 fps. That in itself is a good point. Now my question is : at what resolution will we start to be able to do 50 fps ? I rarely use very high framerates, but I use 50 fps on a very regular basis, so if I could shoot 6,5K or 6K at 50 fps on Epic-W I would be fine.

In other words, I'd like to be able to shoot 50 fps at a S-35 sensor crop. Do you think this will be possible ?

Thank you :)
 
Matthew Quinn said:
It would be pretty safe to assume that 7k will allow for 50 fps +. BUT we still haven't seen behind the curtain.. could be a few more clues the wizard is holding back..
Click to expand...
I don't know, looking at phil's very informative data sheets about Dragon, on Epic-X Dragon we get 83 fps at 6K HD, 96 fps at 5K HD, and 109 fps at 4,5K HD.
We're missing 20fps to go from 30 fps to 50 fps, so in this particular case we would need to lose 1,5K to get them.
That is for Dragon obviously, not Helium : http://artbyphil.com/phfx/red/dragon/images/phfx_redDragon_FormatKey_01_4k6K.jpg

If I had to guess, I would say on Helium 6,5K HD might be able to do 50 fps. Knowing that 6,5K will be pretty close to S-35, I could live with that ;)
 
Matthew Quinn said:
It would be pretty safe to assume that 7k will allow for 50 fps +. BUT we still haven't seen behind the curtain.. could be a few more clues the wizard is holding back..
Click to expand...

I was actually "asking" this 7K 6.5K fps many many pages ago so good that someone raised it up again.... and the thing is that on Epic 8K 30p is half of what Helium can do. It doesn't get much better on Helium when you move down to 7K.. as in you get from 60p to 68p (and 73p on 6.5K FF)... if you take half from that it is only 34p in 7K. So either that 8K 30p is intentionally capped to that and there's more reserves to give 50p on 7K or 6.5K or it is directly comparable limitation on processing power meaning that you have drop down to around 5K region to get 50p. Personally the later would make the camera ok only for normal speed shooting... so in that sense having capped 30p on 8K would be much better option if on 7K it still had more power to tap into. Of course, we do not know if 30p is the max the Epic-W can do to begin with... that is the highest number we've seen on the screen so far
 
Tuomas Hakala said:
Of course, we do not know if 30p is the max the Epic-W can do to begin with... that is the highest number we've seen on the screen so far
Click to expand...


Right. And, I agree 24 fps is the main thing here. Sure High frame rates are welcome, but the epic-w sounds just fine to me imo!
 
When you talk about cropping the Helium - please keep in mind the following...:

Helium_vs_Dragon.jpg


along with...:

Helium_8K_fps.jpg


I have elaborated more on this here...:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?149748-Helium-vs-Dragon-consider-this

Just my honest opinion...

:sifone: Peter
 
Jarred Land said:
Upgrade Options:

Epic Dragon / Scarlet Dragon / Epic-MX / Scarlet-MX / Red One = $17,500 Upgrade to Epic-W

Scarlet-W already delivered or deposit = $10,000 Upgrade to Epic - W

Weapon MG = $9500 Upgrade to Epic - W or $15,000 upgrade to Weapon Healium

Carbon Weapon 6k owners = $6000(?) Upgrade to Weapon Helium

Carbon Weapon 6K owners with Dragon VV deposit = $0 upgrade to Helium 8K


*updated with Jarred confirmation on Dragon owners
Click to expand...

Sorry to ask if this has allready been clarified - Iv'e been trying to sift through the 100's of post and now I'm just getting lost ( easily done which is why i work with pictures and not words) Is the $10k upgrade price only for Scarlet owners waiting in line or also applicable to Scarlet W owners that have taken delivery already?
 
the offer for SW is for people waiting for their cameras, AND people who have already received. people who have their cameras have been told they need to wait for the ones who have not to upgrade first.

long story short, if you are a current SW owner with camera in hand, you will be at the end of the line.
 
Matthew Quinn said:
the offer for SW is for people waiting for their cameras, AND people who have already received. people who have their cameras have been told they need to wait for the ones who have not to upgrade first.

long story short, if you are a current SW owner with camera in hand, you will be at the end of the line.
Click to expand...

im happy to wait and is fair that the people still waiting need to get first
Also with my SW I am happy...but I will do the upgrade! The offer is to good and I know that with the Epic W I will be in the business for looooong time...lol....
 
Tuomas Hakala said:
I was actually "asking" this 7K 6.5K fps many many pages ago so good that someone raised it up again.... and the thing is that on Epic 8K 30p is half of what Helium can do. It doesn't get much better on Helium when you move down to 7K.. as in you get from 60p to 68p (and 73p on 6.5K FF)... if you take half from that it is only 34p in 7K. So either that 8K 30p is intentionally capped to that and there's more reserves to give 50p on 7K or 6.5K or it is directly comparable limitation on processing power meaning that you have drop down to around 5K region to get 50p. Personally the later would make the camera ok only for normal speed shooting... so in that sense having capped 30p on 8K would be much better option if on 7K it still had more power to tap into. Of course, we do not know if 30p is the max the Epic-W can do to begin with... that is the highest number we've seen on the screen so far
Click to expand...
Well, Jarred showed a picture that showed 30 fps at 8K 9:1 and said "final answer"... So it sounds like it won't do more than 30 fps at 8K : http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...pdate-Thread&p=1669066&viewfull=1#post1669066
But of course, who knows...
But we know for sure that the Helium sensor is capable of more than 50 fps at any resolution. So the limiting factor here are the electronics. That's what makes the difference between the Epic-W and the Helium Weapon.
Now, I would think the processing power hasn't become weaker between the Epic Dragon and the Epic-W, and the Epic Dragon is already able to do 80+ fps at 6K. So, I could imagine that the boards are capable of handling 80 fps at 6K on Helium Epic-W too, right ? So that would mean that 50 fps is indeed reachable at 6,5K or even maybe 7K ? Let's hope so ;)
 
Looks like im putting in a deposit for a Scarlet-w tomorrow and will wait on epic-w final info before possibly uprgrading difficult to do so without extensive footage and testing out there (and none with the intended color science). I see epic-w as a longer term investment but Scarlet much easier cost wise and does fullfil my needs. However 4k pro res (for corporates) and improved low light has me waiting for more info and tests. If its at the expense over highlight latitude... I dunno. 5k is fine for video for me but having more clients loving pulling stills from our videos. With epic id want 7k 50fps. But does that bring it too close to weapon helium?
 
Nils Ruinet said:
But we know for sure that the Helium sensor is capable of more than 50 fps at any resolution. So the limiting factor here are the electronics. That's what makes the difference between the Epic-W and the Helium Weapon.
Click to expand...

I guess the max FPS limitations are more sensor readout related than just the processing power... assuming that the bigger cameras have more processing power (or capability on their electronics) than the lower models given that they can obviously do higher resolutions while on lower resolutions the FPS is the same between the line up. Anyways, if you just compare resolutions between Weapon Dragon and Scarlet-W there is obvious difference in FPS at 5K and not so much under that so to me it feels like the Scarlet-W 5K is more or less capped at 60p and I would guess the same thing is gonna happen with Epic-W to make difference between Helium... and that of course leaves the hope open that on 7K them two could be more on par. Of course the FPS is not the only differentiating factor but the compression too which on higher frame rates will push the buyers towards Helium.
 
Nils Ruinet said:
So, I could imagine that the boards are capable of handling 80 fps at 6K on Helium Epic-W too, right ? So that would mean that 50 fps is indeed reachable at 6,5K or even maybe 7K ? Let's hope so ;)
Click to expand...

Here are the published specs of the Stormtrooper Helium Weapon that sold for $59K. If the final Helium Weapon's specs are close to these, then I think each of these FPS numbers need to drop in half for Epic-W since we know the top number is half and the price is half :). The 5K, 6K, 7K FPS numbers could change of course depending on Redcode compression ratios and whether it is a processing power limit or a capped limit for the sake of product differentiation.

The main FPS specs I hope to see are for 48 FPS and 72 FPS (multiples of 24). Based on this chart, my assumption for Epic-W is 48 FPS at 5K and 72 FPS at 4K 2.4:1. I will be pleasantly surprised if wrong. Best case scenario I think would be 48 FPS at 6K and 72 FPS at 5K.

stormtrooper-FPS.jpg
 
Not sure if he is up yet but someone find Brody B and get him to ask away.. That Whiskey he sent me was so good it earned him 3 questions.

But needs to be in the next 2 hours as I gotta go shoot some stuff today.
 
I know the whole crop factor topic is bothersome to some but since all my lenses are Nikon still lenses that I also use on my D750, I put this together for my own reference.

Helium Crop Factor in comparison to 35mm FF stills camera. Example here is a 24mm lens.
Info from Phil Holland's format compare.

8K - 1.2x 29mm
7K - 1.38x 33mm
6K - 1.6x 38mm
5K - 1.93x 46mm
4K - 2.41x 58mm
3K - 3.21x 77mm
2K - 4.81x 116mm
 
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