THE M8 (008) Discussion thread

[Michael Thornton]

To be honest, anything on the web won't quite do the EPIC justice. I understand your point, and I don't take offense at it...

You really need to see it on the big screens.

2K or 4K

Wait to NAB guys.

You haven't seen it all yet.

 

[Steve Gibby]

RED ONE and Alexa already gave us that information

True...but IMO after shooting Epic, it has now been taken to the next level. Beautiful, filmic, immersive, and organic have been my impressions of the Epic raw and 4k graded footage.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Looks like there may be something to my NAB speculation re: RED 4K monitors. :ihih:

Maybe, but I think Gibby means the 4K monitors that Red will be bringing to NAB. Last year it was a Sony SXRD. I don't think Gibby was spilling any beans here by mistake...

 

[Steve Johnson]

Steve
Just reading the RECON thread and you said that you used ND filters of .3 .6 and .9

I was just wondering what types of filters you would recommend using. We are look at getting some for our camera this year and just woundered your thoughts.

Great footage coming out the M8. Looking forward to seeing what else you guys come up with.

Steve

 

[Steve Gibby]

Maybe, but I think Gibby means the 4K monitors that Red will be bringing to NAB. Last year it was a Sony SXRD. I don't think Gibby was spilling any beans here by mistake...

You're right Curran, I'm not spilling any beans. I don't know what Red has in mind for 4k projection and/or monitors at NAB, but I believe I recently saw a post by Red Team indicating they will be showing footage in 4k at their NAB both. It will be really interesting to see what their 4k setup there is though.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Steve
Just reading the RECON thread and you said that you used ND filters of .3 .6 and .9

I was just wondering what types of filters you would recommend using. We are look at getting some for our camera this year and just woundered your thoughts.

Great footage coming out the M8. Looking forward to seeing what else you guys come up with.

Steve

Thanks Steve..

With 35mm still lenses on Red One (and Epic when the Canon mount is ready) I use multi-coated, screw-on filters from B&W, but I also have had surprisingly good results from Hoya multi-coated, screw-on filters.

I don't stack filters, and I don't use IR/ND combination filters. In fact, all I've ever used with Red One are ND (.3, .6, .9) and polarizer filters - and my results have been excellent - no IR problems in the environments and natural lighting conditions I regularly shoot in. If there's any decent sky in a shot I love to use a polarizer to define the clouds, and deepen the blue sky.

If you'll be using a matte box, then obviously go for as good of drop-in stage filters as you can afford. Again, I'd look for ND .3, .6, .9, and a polarizer. BTW I don't use matte boxes often because for increased mobility I usually use 35mm still lenses on my Red cameras, with screw-on filters. But we did buy one of the new Red matte boxes, and I used it on Epic this past week. Its is impressive and I'm glad we bought it for those less mobile occasions when a matte box is warranted. the Red matte box is very light, relatively small, and quite strong - I'm impressed by it.

Hope this info helps you...

 

[Steve Johnson]

Thanks for the quick reply Steve.

We will be getting a Red Mattebox when we get our stage 4 Epic (which seems along away - but from what you guys have shown us, well worth the wait).

From reading your comments through various threads, I was thinking about the combination above as a starter to our kit. Any particular brand you would go for?

I have done a little work with the R1 but this will be my first big purchase and doing all manner of shoots to get as much experience shooting under different conditions, situations etc. Although eventually I am looking at shooting my own scripts.

Thanks for all the valuable info that you guys give us.

 

[Jean Pierre Schoch]

To be honest, anything on the web won't quite do the EPIC justice. I understand your point, and I don't take offense at it...

First of all thanks for the footage, and for sharing your experiences with this new great technology.
Then, I have to agree with Derek (because, I expected much more from this first test), but I am not talking about the compressor (because we know that the quality wouldn't be perfect on the internet), to me the "problem" if we can call it a problem, is the location and the subject. That is the reason the footage doesn't look so appeal.
But this is just my opinion.

In the other hand, is nice to see how the EPIC can be use almost in any situation and for every kind of shot. I can wait to have my EPICx stage 3.

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

Sorry, I just don't know but Whay first EPIC footage don't look like MOVIE? Is it need to do something for "Cinema look"?

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Did you use HDRx™™ with the skiing footage? I don't know how it look before gradeing and that the clip is a webb clip. But it looked very dark in the shadows. I would have liked a flatter look. But I guess vimeo eat up alot of details in shadows and highlights. The first two shots rocks! Looking forward to the 1080p download able version! By the way I loved the unboxing clips!

 

[Steve Gibby]

First of all thanks for the footage, and for sharing your experiences with this new great technology.
Then, I have to agree with Derek (because, I expected much more from this first test), but I am not talking about the compressor (because we know that the quality wouldn't be perfect on the internet), to me the "problem" if we can call it a problem, is the location and the subject. That is the reason the footage doesn't look so appeal.
But this is just my opinion.

In the other hand, is nice to see how the EPIC can be use almost in any situation and for every kind of shot. I can wait to have my EPICx stage 3.

Yes...that's just your opinion...but that opinion isn't shared by myself, our crew, our editors, our colorist (read his opinion in my post #446 of this thread), and the heavy majority of people on this thread and the Recon M8 thread. In first look situations like this, no matter what is posted, there will be people who for matter of personal taste, genres they shoot in, etc. who wanted it different. I guess that's natural, because this is a large industry, with many niches, styles, and sub-industries.

You have a problem with the locations - when we shot in some of the most diverse and beautiful places in the world (red rock canyons, Rocky Mountains)?

My guess is if you clicked on my Artbeats Red footage library link in my signature below, you'd also find those worldwide shots boring and have a problem with those shots and locations too We weren't out there to re-make "Gone with the Wind" - but to test the camera out in some very demanding lighting and temperature conditions. We very much succeeded in that - and the camera performed perfectly.

Posts like yours can make us sometimes wonder as a crew why we even bothered to donate our time and camera equipment to projects like this - but then we realize that the majority here gain valuable insight from our efforts, and that there will always be a few who feel the need to be an art critic rather then understand what we were achieving out there. Bottom line: opinions are like noses - everyone has one.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks for all the kind words guys, much appreciated since the Hard working days we all put in to this

What I need to speak out about is the fact that I too completely understand and in some points agreed that this first EPIC footage form M8, might not be up to
your expectation as far as subject and locations, however it was meant for our First place of Test, and this is what it was, a Test, with Steve Gibby, you don't
get to test cameras in a Studio, He does that in is own Back Yard, and we like that

With this first test out, we now prepping for several Shoots, no longer a Test but a actual Series of Shoots, in a large variety and different environments
including Beauty shots, High speed shots, Helicopter flying low at high velocity in the middle of a Downtown Cityscape etc. so there will be many opportunity
to show EPIC inn its full Glory.

This first shoot, was a Test, and I might add that I'm personally extremely Proud of the results we got, and when I say we, I really mean Steve , Joseph and the
guys in Post, as all I really did was give some directions, talk a Lot and just simply have a TON of FUN as this was the first time I was allowed (well,
more so I simply told the Doctors off) to leave the House in a long time!!

 

[Steve Gibby]

Sorry, I just don't know but Whay first EPIC footage don't look like MOVIE? Is it need to do something for "Cinema look"?

LOL...I don't remember you paying to see a "MOVIE". In fact your comment reflects just your notion of how Epic - or Red One for that matter - should be used for as a camera system. There are a huge range of styles (cine, EFP), and genres, that Red one, and now Epic have been and will be used for. Epic is heavily related in technology, and features, to DSLR systems, and to a lesser extent to EFP cameras - and its a Digital Stills and Motion Camera - not just a straight "cinema" or "movie" camera. You'll have plenty of chances to see Epic used for what you conceive as "cinema". But there are a lot of dimensions to a "cinema look" beyond frame rate - lighting, shooting technique, lens, etc. If all you were looking for was judder-filled 24p narrative, you're simply on the wrong thread.

 

[Derek S.]

What happened is just what I thought will happen. The video backfired as you can see. People are talking in Vimeo that it looks like video and they will stick with their 5D's.

I think RED talked about this themself that it's not good idea to give wrong impressions by showing footage from prototype (what they have always done) because people will think it is what the camera will ever do. I think it's the same thing here. First videos shot with EPIC and made public should look EPIC and blow peoples minds. First impressions are important. Now there will be posts all over the internet that EPIC footage doesn't look as good as 5D and other crap. I know those people aren't the market for RED, but once people start talking something it spreads like plague.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I Respectfully disagree Derek, the Title says very clearly "FIRST TEST FOOTAGE" we tucked the camera out in the cold at over
10,000' and fired it up, no fancy Cine or studio settings, out in the wild, in one of the most difficult environments to shoot on,
The Snow at high altitude and shooting fast moving objects, with an old (but great) Canon PL mount Zoom, hand focused.

Those that want to, will talk no matter what, if they can't afford an EPIC, they will always say that their DSLR is better

 

[Jean Pierre Schoch]

Yes...that's just your opinion...but that opinion isn't shared by myself, our crew, our editors, our colorist (read his opinion in my post #446 of this thread), and the heavy majority of people on this thread and the Recon M8 thread. In first look situations like this, no matter what is posted, there will be people who for matter of personal taste, genres they shoot in, etc. who wanted it different. I guess that's natural, because this is a large industry, with many niches, styles, and sub-industries.

You have a problem with the locations - when we shot in some of the most diverse and beautiful places in the world (red rock canyons, Rocky Mountains)?

My guess is if you clicked on my Artbeats Red footage library link in my signature below, you'd also find those worldwide shots boring and have a problem with those shots and locations too We weren't out there to re-make "Gone with the Wind" - but to test the camera out in some very demanding lighting and temperature conditions. We very much succeeded in that - and the camera performed perfectly.

Posts like yours can make us wonder as a crew why we even bother to donate our time and camera equipment to projects like this - but then we realize that there will always be a few who feel the need to be an art critic rather then understand what we were achieving out there. But opinions are like noses - everyone has one.

As I said in the first line of my last post, I really thank you guys for your contribution, your time and your experience that let us know more about the EPIC camera. I have learned a lot in this forum from people like you, with great experiences.

Then, I don't mean to be disrespectful, if you thought so, my apology. I just said, that locations and subjects are really important in photography/cinematography, and that your shot wasn't so appealing because of that (I'm talking about the skiing shots). I didn't said something offensive or trying to be an art critic, I just say what I think, and I believe being honest is a good way to face life.

Anyway, having different points of view, personal taste is a good thing otherwise the world would be boring

PS. I saw before your library and I found it very rich and nice

 

[Andrew M.]

it's not good idea to give wrong impressions by showing footage from prototype

Filmic look or lack of it has nothing to do with EPIC prototype.

It has everything to do with technique and the person behind it.
Ketch has his own technique and it is very unique. I love his way of filming.

Getting traditional “judder-filled 24p narrative” was not the objective here.

This one is coming to the theatre near you from the other 80 or so EPICs that were already shipped out there.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

What happened is just what I thought will happen. The video backfired as you can see. People are talking in Vimeo that it looks like video and they will stick with their 5D's.

Derek, I understand what you're saying, but frankly, who cares? I mean, even if you put the best Epic reel of them all on vimeo or youtube, people like that would still say their 5Ds look just as good. As you rightly said, that kind of comment comes from people who were never (and probably will never be) in the market for Epic, it's in a different league.

First impressions are important.

I beg to disagree. When it comes to cameras, IMHO first hands-on impression are important, but first impression based on some video posted online may be good for those who want a camera to post videos on the web, and I doubt there's a lot of people who are waiting for Epic just to shoot some YouTube videos.

I know those people aren't the market for RED, but once people start talking something it spreads like plague.

True, but only if there's at least some truth to back that kind of opinion, and in this case, there isn't.

Those that want to, will talk no matter what, if they can't afford an EPIC, they will always say that their DSLR is better

Totally agree with Ketch on this.

 

[Rob Gardner]

I think people are being unfair here, perhaps out of envy or something. Steve is right. If you go look at his website you will see more footage like this. That's what he shoots. If it is not your cup of tea, so be it. It's true that these shots may not be the most dramatic visual showcase of Epic's potential, but given the locations, the lenses, and the personnel, it is the footage they could produce. Others will be posting more cinematic examples as time goes by, I'm sure.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Rob, I appreciate your comments...

My own web site is in sad need of upgrading. Actually you'll find tons of cinematic examples on my Artbeats Red footage library link below. I shoot the style and production values needed for each individual production. IMO this Utah footage is plenty cinematic, organic, and immersive. For other recent examples of my cinematic work, find a copy of my last National Geographic Television special I was an EP and DP for ("Icy Killers"), the 10-Red camera productions of the band "Journey Live in Manila" (VH1, Palladia, Blu Ray) for which I was a DP and cinematographer, the 6-Red camera production of the band Heart "Live at Sky Church" (VH1, Palladia, Blu Ray) for which I was a DP and cinematographer, and many other recent productions. As you know, there are a lot more factors to "cinematic" than frame rate - namely lighting, shooting techniques' lenses, etc.

We used top-level lenses (Master Primes, RPP, RPZ, Ruby) on this, in some of the world's most beautiful locations, with a highly skilled and experienced crew. No excuses there whatsoever. What we didn't have is a lot of time - just four days - and one of them was a wash with super high winds and rain.

For those who seem to be somehow disappointed, you are in the extreme minority. Read through the Recon M8 thread for multiple examples of positive reactions. Here's some more info on what we set out to achieve:

The sky was overcast for those snow shots. I knew the edge between the top of the snow-covered ridge, and the darker forest behind would be a good test for the camera. I wanted to see the results without going to HDRx™™™™™™™. I routinely do a lot tighter sports action framings than those presented, but in this case I wanted those side-by light and dark areas - a real tight framing on the skiers would have only left light snow as a background. Yes, the Vimeo compression does naturally eat up a fair amount of detail in the shadows and highlights. The raw and graded footage, before compression for the Web, show tons of more detail - as you can see in the still frame grab of the snowmobile guy we posted earlier in this thread.

my intention with these shots was to push the camera into challenging light/dark/detail areas in cold temperature situations. IMO the camera performed extremely well.

For the red rock canyon shots - car top driving, panning, and speed ramped - I was looking to see what the camera could do with scenes with intricate detail, with a wide range of light/shadow areas in the frame. Again, the camera performed extremely well.

The tunnel driving sequence was a pure experiment - and it worked! We were about to drive through a long tunnel which goes directly through a mountain. One of the crew in the car jokingly said "Hey, maybe we should leave Epic on and drive through the tunnel!". I got out, re-set the ISO to 1600, set Varispeed to 12 fps, and I then drove through the tunnel with the camera recording - using just my Xterra headlights to light our way ahead - and it worked! It not only worked - but I didn't use HDRx™™™™™™™ for that shot either.

The range of shots I did last week with Epic M8 was calculated to put the camera to demanding composition, lighting, temperature, and altitude conditions - we achieved that - and the camera performed extremely well on all counts.

If you click into my Artbeats Red footage library link in my signature below, you'll find a much more broad range of types of shots I regularly have done with Red One - and I've done many more types of shots than are even represented there. Looking forward, now that these initial first field tests with Epic M8 are done, I'll be consistently pushing the camera out into more genres, scenarios, and situations. Fun times ahead...