The LOW CON+SLIGHT HALATION OLPF thread

[George A.]

Hi!

I know that there are tons of people interested in such an OLPF, but the discussions are spread over several other threads. I'm opening this thread so RED is aware that the demand for such an OLPF is extremely high. Jarred himself mentioned that he would love such an OLPF, so I hope RED ends up developing and releasing it sooner rather than later.

We need an OLPF that simulates 35mm film as best as it can. Yes, it would be a "baked in" effect, but 35mm film also has this "baked in" effect going on (so nothing new here) - a slight amount of highlight halation, due to the physical characteristics of its medium. We are not talking anything huge here, just a small Low Con/blooming effect added to the image by this specialty OLPF (which I'm so sure would be standard on so many Dragons, actually!). This effect is both constant and consistent as with 35mm film, regardless of the focal length used -- not to mention it is very pleasing for narrative work.

Alexa did it in their OLPF - I hope RED will do the same. Apparently Alexa has the equivalent of a Low Con 1/4 in there - most people love the effect (I know I do), a handful of people think it's too strong - so perhaps the best course of auction would be a Low Con 1/8 in there. Again, we don't need anything too big, just a starting point, a baseline to give us the equivalent of that fantastic celluloid image.

One other note: people like Phil and others advocate the use of diffusion filters in front of the lens (and I appreciate their point of view). However, if one is looking for a 35mm-like image at all times - a constant effect - than this OLPF makes perfect sense. Not to mention the size would be kept very small - no need for additional filters and a large mattebox if one doesn't need them - this is a very important point. Also - people have been using diffusion filters with 35mm film for a hundred years. This 35mm-like OLPF would give us just the starting point (35mm film-like image without additional diffusion filters) - if you need to add additional diffusion or add other diffusion types (besides Low Con), of course, feel free to add that in the front of the lens.

Such an OLPF wouldn't be too difficult to develop, and it would sell very, very well. I hope RED will release it!
George

 

[George A.]

Most of the photos below are too exaggerated, of course, but you get the picture.
Most of us know how beautiful 35mm can be, even with this "baked in" slight halation effect.




































--

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

I find that 1/8th more closely approximates the Alexa. I have a 1/4 and 1/8th Low Con and love the 1/8th. Alexa seems to be a dirty word around here, but most DPs love that look so I think a low-con OLPF would be wonderful.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I'm all for this. You should have made this a poll

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

I find that 1/8th more closely approximates the Alexa. I have a 1/4 and 1/8th Low Con and love the 1/8th. Alexa seems to be a dirty word around here, but most DPs love that look so I think a low-con OLPF would be wonderful.

front filter strength vs final look will often vary depending on the focal length you're using (except NDs obviously) and while a 1/8 might work well with some lenses, it could be too strong or too weak with another.
Having it just in front of sensor would allow for a more homogenous effect...

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

I'll take one. Great idea. No point having swappable olpfs and not many usable ones.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

front filter strength vs final look will often vary depending on the focal length you're using (except NDs obviously) and while a 1/8 might work well with some lenses, it could be too strong or too weak with another.
Having it just in front of sensor would allow for a more homogenous effect...

Don't get me wrong, at all Mikael. I'm all for this being baked into the OLPF. To me it'd make the dragon a far more viable B-Cam on Alexa A cam shows. Or help sway some DPs back from Alexa into rolling with REDs.

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Agreeable, love the slight halation look. Adds just the right bit of magic to a composition. Would definitely be useful for specific shots and scenes, with hopefully the upcoming "Dragon Standard" OLPF hanging in my camera otherwise.

 

[George A.]

front filter strength vs final look will often vary depending on the focal length you're using (except NDs obviously) and while a 1/8 might work well with some lenses, it could be too strong or too weak with another.
Having it just in front of sensor would allow for a more homogenous effect...

Hi Mikael,

This is true for filters that sit in front of the lens.
The effect is, on the contrary, more constant and homogenous when the filter is behind the lens.

A Low Con 1/8 behind the lens will look pretty much the same on a 24mm lens and a 85mm lens.



--

 

[George A.]

Agreeable, love the slight halation look. Adds just the right bit of magic to a composition. Would definitely be useful for specific shots and scenes, with hopefully the upcoming "Dragon Standard" OLPF hanging in my camera otherwise.

I'm making the point again that those reference pictures are exaggerated.
IMO, a Low Con/Slight Halation (the emphasis being on the word slight) would, in fact, be a standard OLPF on many productions shooting narrative - not a highly specialized item. Most people are not looking for a wild blooming effect - they simply want the very subtle lowcon/halation typical of 35mm film. Most people don't even notice that. Think more the picture no 7 above, rather than the no. 10.

I'm also aware of the upcoming Standard (middle ground) OLPF coming up from RED. In my opinion, the Low Con/Halation layer should be added to that upcoming Standard OLPF to create the additional Low Con/Slight Halation OLPF we all want (in addition to the "naked" Standard, for people who don't want the halation).



--

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

Hi Mikael,

This is true for filters that sit in front of the lens.
The effect is, on the contrary, more constant and homogenous when the filter is behind the lens.

A Low Con 1/8 behind the lens will look pretty much the same on a 24mm lens and a 85mm lens.



--

Yes that is what I meant... But I probably wasn't very clear with my english...

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I shoot a lot with diffusion and would love a OLPF/diffusion System...

However I see no evidence for ...

Such an OLPF wouldn't be too difficult to develop...George

I do see evidence that it is actually very difficult to get OLPFs 'right'..

I know that Red are aware of the desire and am not convinced we'll hurry them up...

Hope I am wrong... Suspect I am not .... and hope red crack the 'middle way OLPF' 1st and soon..

Regards

Michael

 

[PatrickFaith]

I can see a whole line of OLPF's for setting certain looks in the camera, could hugely cut down costs in posts, especially if shot was done with practicals. For me, shooting to reduce the cost of posts, while allowing multichannel distribution is what I'm focused on(I also think it's a good business strategy). From a art/cinematography viewpoint - i like the idea of what the cinematographer & director sees during the shoot - is what the audience sees.

 

[Dave Blackham]

We have a complete range of diffusion and halation filters in test at the moment. Out aim is to find suitable diffusion rather than halation but they are all very light grades for initial tests. Obviously this is filtration in front of the lens. Personally Id prefer clean image and then add optical filtration where is possible to do apply effectively.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Some people want softening without halation but I see more requests for halation without softening. If all you want is a softer image, just use a lower resolution camera or a softer lens. Getting less resolution is the easy part.

The primary reason people ask for less resolution without halation is for projects that are meant to be very sharp, clean, with high resolution but they have to cut in a close-up of an actor that now looks too detailed to be flattering, so they want softness without any diffusion artifacts. But in that case, you are more likely to want to use a filter in front of the camera or to switch to an older lens or do some post softening rather than switch the OLPF out in the field every time you move into a close-up, and then have to switch it back every time you back out again.

The Tiffen Black Diffusion-FX is probably the most subtle diffusion filter that lacks most telltale artifacts. That also makes it a bit boring -- it has no real "look" -- but if all you want is to slightly knock off the sharpness, then this filter works well in the lightest grades.

 

[George A.]

Hi David,

I totally see your point.

I don't think anyone wants less sharp images with this proposed OLPF. What people I've talked to want is a "Low Con" feel and some slight halation to the highlights.
Similar to the Alexa. No perceivable softening. For that, we have filters in front of the lens.

Now, of course, the Low Con - in addition to the low con effect - also acts as a very, very slight diffusion filter (barely noticeable - if at all - in 1/8 strength). But in this lighter grade, it shouldn't make the image soft. I've tested a Low Con 1/8 and even 1/4 and the Dragon images are plenty sharp, but with a very nice low con feel and definitely some slight, very pleasing halation to the specular highlights.

I see this OLPF as a "35mm film" equivalent. By the way, many people use film emulation LUTs as well, in their quest for a more filmic image. I found that if one is using such a LUT on top of the RedLogFilm image (LUTs which generally have an aggressive curve, crushing the blacks), then a Low Con filter in the pipeline works wonders - it counterbalances the LUT and the cumulative effect is extremely close to the look of celluloid film. Add some grain and the difference is almost undistinguishable.

George

P.S. Would anyone say that the OLPF in front of Alexa (allegedly using the equivalent of a Low Con 1/4) softens the image? Despite the lower resolution (compared to Dragon), I still find Alexa plenty sharp - but with a very 35mm film feel to it. That's what I'm looking for - plus all the other huge benefits of the Red Dragon! Such an OLPF will probably never leave my camera when I'm shooting narrative work.




--

 

[Phil Holland]

Just out of curiosity, how does this look to everybody?

 

[Medavoym]

Phil,

We already know that your image is just the Dragon without any filters - it was posted in another one of your threads.

Just out of curiosity - why are you against a Low Contrast+Subtle Blooming OLPF?

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

Maybe Phil has heard what's coming and is tempering expectations.

Fight fire before fire.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

We already know that your image is just the Dragon without any filters - it was posted in another one of your threads.

Just out of curiosity - why are you against a Low Contrast+Subtle Blooming OLPF?

I'm not against it, if you search back I was one of the first along with Mr. Kilgroe to bring it up even.

I have concerns that are more geared towards optical chaos, individual preference, and general shooting. I'm all for having options and I'm sure Red is experimenting with all sorts of OLPF possibilities.

More or less I'm pointing out what's possible today and the large variety of halation and low con filtration available. As for what would be "right" to put into an OLPF, that's tricky. You can emulate film, but there's a variety of stocks and some have anti-halation features to combat against the look. It's a tricky space.