Tested Monstro vs. Helium

[rand thompson]

Misha Engel;When you still want more light in your picture give it to a Resolve wizard like Rand and he will sqeeze out the last bit that is hidden somewhere in the RAW file.

Ha Ha, Thanks Misha for the Compliment! but no "Wizard" here. Still learning Resolve, Redcine-X and now 3DLut Creator Pro everyday. The key is to just keep trying, you'll eventually get it right.

Damn, Venice is so good at seeing in the dark, that black VW Golf came out white this time.

I didn't know exactly what you were talking about at first, then I got it.

 

[Misha Engel]

But I can say rather safely Monstro is the best sensor currently found in any digital cinema camera on a technical and even aesthetic level, this will likely be the case for the next 2-3 years I think, unless one company in particular figured something out regarding one of their R&D sensors, but it hasn't come to market this time around.

That is a pretty bold statement with the ALEXA65 around with an exposure latitude of 14+(14.8) stops over the entire sensitivity range from EI 200 to EI 3200 (DR of 14.8 + 4 = 18.8 Stops) and a highly praised color science.

And the Pana around the conner http://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html

Monstro is the best RED sensor and a very good one overall.

A lot can (and will, I think) happen in 2 to 3 years...

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Hey guys, here is the same frame shot with the Venice @2000ISO (base sensitivity was at 500) and the 50mm (same lens as the monstro):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RoLTuKWYjb7pmgtiLUhx--cFibME-ed_/view?usp=sharing

Would love to know what you think about this!

Is that Venice in 4k s35? 6k vv?

Worth noting that the exposure should be somewhat equivalent since Sony is base iso500 but only specifies 6 stops over whereas I think monstro at base iso800 specifies 6.5 stops over so as a dynamic range test this should be a pretty good indicator of what's happening in the low end.

 

[Aaron Lochert]

Is that Venice in 4k s35? 6k vv?

Worth noting that the exposure should be somewhat equivalent since Sony is base iso500 but only specifies 6 stops over whereas I think monstro at base iso800 specifies 6.5 stops over so as a dynamic range test this should be a pretty good indicator of what's happening in the low end.

It's 6048 x 4032; which is the 6K 3:2 mode, full sensor, open gate, whatever you wanna call it.

That is a pretty bold statement with the ALEXA65 around with an exposure latitude of 14+(14.8) stops over the entire sensitivity range from EI 200 to EI 3200 (DR of 14.8 + 4 = 18.8 Stops)

You can't just add those together and get 19 stops out of nowhere. ISO doesn't change the endpoints, just the distribution of data within the endpoints.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Is that Venice in 4k s35? 6k vv?

Worth noting that the exposure should be somewhat equivalent since Sony is base iso500 but only specifies 6 stops over whereas I think monstro at base iso800 specifies 6.5 stops over so as a dynamic range test this should be a pretty good indicator of what's happening in the low end.

That's a good point- FF is not enabled in the Venice yet AFAIK. So this must be a S35 cut out of the sensor- about 4K. Hence the noise (maybe?)...Still- pretty bad- noise is noise- resolution increase won't change it much- would it?

 

[Phil Holland]

That is a pretty bold statement with the ALEXA65 around with an exposure latitude of 14+(14.8) stops over the entire sensitivity range from EI 200 to EI 3200 (DR of 14.8 + 4 = 18.8 Stops) and a highly praised color science.

And the Pana around the conner http://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html

Monstro is the best RED sensor and a very good one overall.

A lot can (and will, I think) happen in 2 to 3 years...

I retain my opinion and observations.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I have not made side by side tests with alexa xl and monstro. But quite a few with other alexas and monstro. And if the XL is the same kind but bigger then monstro wins large as I see it. Better per pixel and far better per area of sensor.

XL is bigger but resolution, sensitivity and range is not better. And just bigger is not really a valid point for being better as I see it. With the large lenses it needs it loose on speed.

Then sure you can have the whole discussion about alexa colors, some just love them, difficult to argue around taste. For example I find the red color science to be more accurate, but I love the look of kinefinity, but it to me thats a look, it does not make thier colors better.

 

[C. Burkhart]

I have not made side by side tests with alexa xl and monstro. But quite a few with other alexas and monstro. And if the XL is the same kind but bigger then monstro wins large as I see it. Better per pixel and far better per area of sensor.

XL is bigger but resolution, sensitivity and range is not better. And just bigger is not really a valid point for being better as I see it. With the large lenses it needs it loose on speed.

Then sure you can have the whole discussion about alexa colors, some just love them, difficult to argue around taste. For example I find the red color science to be more accurate, but I love the look of kinefinity, but it to me thats a look, it does not make thier colors better.

The big advantage of the Alexa is it's dual gain architecture in terms of highlight retention. This is the critical area that many DP's are concerned about. A blown highlight is not recoverable, as we can alway denoise the shadow. Whereas, Monstro is about 6.5 stops over as someone else stated here, Alexa is 8 stops over. I have been amazed at what I was able to recover with the latter on occasion. No one really touches it where this is concerned, despite anyone's claims to DR. This is what I have seen in real world shooting. When you combine this with the additional resolving power that comes with a larger sensor (or sensors if you would like) in the LF and 65, that creates a very desirable product. As I have already stated here, I am not a fan of RED in general, but I am a fan of Monstro. It looks smooth and clean. The skin tones have a chance. However, I think we all know that the LF is going to take the market and is probably a wiser long term investment for whatever reason, technical or marketing, given the equivalent cost basis. It is likely to hold it's value longer. So be it. Kudos to RED even so (never thought I would say it). I really like what I am seeing here.

In terms of the Venice, if they do implement a second native high ISO and FF, this test would be worth redoing. I really enjoy the fact that people like the camera enough to even consider it here. I think Sony has worked hard to regain respect in this corner of the film universe and they deserve the consideration people are beginning to give them. Let's not forget that this is a much less expensive product, more on par with a kitted out Epic-W in terms of it's cost basis. I think what really matters is if the camera has it's own mojo that gives it a personality. In a similar way that the Varicam does, whether it lives up to the competition in it's specs or not. I find it curious and encouraging that Bjorn you like the Kinefinity for this very reason too.

 

[Thai Christen]

However, I think we all know that the LF is going to take the market and is probably a wiser long term investment for whatever reason, technical or marketing, given the equivalent cost basis. It is likely to hold it's value longer.

I cannot agree more.

Concerning Monstro, I think price will come down sooner or later. Monstro is advertised around 65K in the second hand market. I even saw one going for 50K. I don‘t think anyone is buying Monstro new off the shelf for 80K.

 

[Brandon Veen]

I cannot agree more.

Concerning Monstro, I think price will come down sooner or later. Monstro is advertised around 65K in the second hand market. I even saw one going for 50K. I don‘t think anyone is buying Monstro new off the shelf for 80K.

To be fair, I don’t think the lister of the one for 50K was expecting it to only get the single bid at 50K. That doesn’t make the point any less valid though.

 

[Thai Christen]

To be fair, I don’t think the lister of the one for 50K was expecting it to only get the single bid at 50K. That doesn’t make the point any less valid though.

I know. But the fact that someone listed it with starting price of US$49.950 on ebay (if I recall it), that tells me enough.
Not sure if at the end the sale went through with 1 bid, though.

 

[Brad Grimm]

I know. But the fact that someone listed it with starting price of US$49.950 on ebay (if I recall it), that tells me enough.
Not sure if at the end the sale went through with 1 bid, though.

Its not really a fair argument since many Monstro owners got their sensor extremely discounted at 10K. So of course your going to get a few people trying to offload them since personal situations change over the course of 3 years. That being said, once more professionals use the Monstro, its true value will be understood, 80K is very fair for this piece of technology.

 

[Thai Christen]

Its not really a fair argument since many Monstro owners got their sensor extremely discounted at 10K. So of course your going to get a few people trying to offload them since personal situations change over the course of 3 years. That being said, once more professionals use the Monstro, its true value will be understood, 80K is very fair for this piece of technology.

This is true and I am aware of it.
Same game like EpicW folks who got their cameras for 20K. Last time saw one going for 19.5K second hand.

Sure, 80K for Monstro is a fair price.
But what is fair really? At the end, its economics. Numbers are numbers.

 

[Aris_Gavriilidis]

I'm betting that the super limited Gemini sensor is really a sort of "experiment" for the next generation sensor technology. I'm thinking, since it's got a larger pixel pitch and is claimed to be insanely clean at 3200+ ISO, they will re-program the dynamic range distribution to be shifted significantly more towards highlights given the clean noise floor, resulting in a sensor that will match or rival arri's next sensor. This is after all what currently happens internally in their cameras when the OLPF is swapped, so there's no reason they can't create a radical re-calibration to generate spectacular highlight retention with a sensor that clean in the low end. I'm no engineer, that's just a guess but I doubt they developed a new sensor to only make a few cameras for NASA and call it a day. At any rate, to gain market back from the upcoming Alexa LF, they need to come out with a chip that clearly outperforms Arri's stuff in the highlights.

 

[C. Burkhart]

I'm betting that the super limited Gemini sensor is really a sort of "experiment" for the next generation sensor technology. I'm thinking, since it's got a larger pixel pitch and is claimed to be insanely clean at 3200+ ISO, they will re-program the dynamic range distribution to be shifted significantly more towards highlights given the clean noise floor, resulting in a sensor that will match or rival arri's next sensor. This is after all what currently happens internally in their cameras when the OLPF is swapped, so there's no reason they can't create a radical re-calibration to generate spectacular highlight retention with a sensor that clean in the low end. I'm no engineer, that's just a guess but I doubt they developed a new sensor to only make a few cameras for NASA and call it a day. At any rate, to gain market back from the upcoming Alexa LF, they need to come out with a chip that clearly outperforms Arri's stuff in the highlights.

Totally agree. This is where the competition is.

 

[Christoph Tilley]

If anyone is interested, this was our Venice unpacking, filmed on Monstro (and an old Sony MiniDV Camcorder):
https://www.facebook.com/mxrproductions/videos/vb.201575873199721/1870028919687733

 

[Sabovic Adis]

The big advantage of the Alexa is it's dual gain architecture in terms of highlight retention. This is the critical area that many DP's are concerned about. A blown highlight is not recoverable, as we can alway denoise the shadow. Whereas, Monstro is about 6.5 stops over as someone else stated here, Alexa is 8 stops over. I have been amazed at what I was able to recover with the latter on occasion. No one really touches it where this is concerned, despite anyone's claims to DR. This is what I have seen in real world shooting. When you combine this with the additional resolving power that comes with a larger sensor (or sensors if you would like) in the LF and 65, that creates a very desirable product. As I have already stated here, I am not a fan of RED in general, but I am a fan of Monstro. It looks smooth and clean. The skin tones have a chance. However, I think we all know that the LF is going to take the market and is probably a wiser long term investment for whatever reason, technical or marketing, given the equivalent cost basis. It is likely to hold it's value longer. So be it. Kudos to RED even so (never thought I would say it). I really like what I am seeing here.

In terms of the Venice, if they do implement a second native high ISO and FF, this test would be worth redoing. I really enjoy the fact that people like the camera enough to even consider it here. I think Sony has worked hard to regain respect in this corner of the film universe and they deserve the consideration people are beginning to give them. Let's not forget that this is a much less expensive product, more on par with a kitted out Epic-W in terms of it's cost basis. I think what really matters is if the camera has it's own mojo that gives it a personality. In a similar way that the Varicam does, whether it lives up to the competition in it's specs or not. I find it curious and encouraging that Bjorn you like the Kinefinity for this very reason too.

6.5 stops and 8 stops over - over what? Over itself? Over noise? Over ISO 100, 800...what?

 

[Misha Engel]

You can't just add those together and get 19 stops out of nowhere. ISO doesn't change the endpoints, just the distribution of data within the endpoints.

Yes you can, with the ARRI ALEV III. The latitude is 14+ (14,8 color and 15.2 mono) stops over the entie sensitivity range from EI200 to EI3200. So the total DR is ~ 15+4 ~ 19 stops.

The latitude of the human eye is 13..14 stops and the total DR is around 29..30 stops(after adaptattion of around half an hour).

 

[Aris_Gavriilidis]

Yes you can, with the ARRI ALEV III. The latitude is 14+ (14,8 color and 15.2 mono) stops over the entie sensitivity range from EI200 to EI3200. So the total DR is ~ 15+4 ~ 19 stops.

The latitude of the human eye is 13..14 stops and the total DR is around 29..30 stops(after adaptattion of around half an hour).

The ALEV III is an amazing sensor, but 19 stops? Nope. It does deserve praise for its performance and longevity, but stating that it does 19 stops is way, way too far-fetched.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The human eye has a (comparable to camera's) ISO rating between 500..1000 according to astronomers.

An ISO rating of ISO500...(max. ISO1000) should look like what we as humans can see.

Human senses don't have fixed sensitivity and even if they did you'd need a stop and shutter speed to make that claim.

Lattitude of the Helium is supposed to be 16,5 stops and we (humans) can only see 13..14 stops at the same time.

That sounds great, those premises make me super-human then. I saw a larger DR in the scene than Helium could record. At the same time.