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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sundance 2019 nofilmschool cams and lenses.

Jacobo Martinez

Jacobo Martinez

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In case you haven't seen this. Is this 100% accurate?

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This chart really concerned me as I expected much more RED presence and I know that they're probably including documentaries and B-cameras in the mix but why can't RED seem to penetrate this market more than it is?
 
It seems odd that so many big films, not necessarily indies, this year were shot on film and to my eye, RED looks more like Kodak film than Arri or Sony or any of them. All of the Arri stuff looks the same to me. I think that the Sony's and Canons continue to improve and people like them. I think we're due a resurgence.
 
My two cents:
1- I have been wanting to buy an affordable Red camera since Red came out with the idea that it was going to democratize cinema cameras and also integrate photo + video cameras. In practice, Red has made a huuuge impact in the digital cinema camera, yes. Have they democratized it. No. Rightfully so I suppose. It is a business, not a charity. But I do feel somehow let down. I always did wish and felt somewhat led to believe that Red would make 4K for under $4k type of thing. Clearly many budget cinematographers just went Canon or Sony, like I did. Not red. The math adds up for both lower and upper end markets. Look at all charts for Sundance and Oscars.
2- Arri clearly beat the living hell out of all camera manufactures combined. This is a clear statement that dynamic range means more than resolution. Red keeps adding resolution. That would be ok with me, if they first pushed on other factors first. Dynamic range and color science are number 1 and 2 here. Arri won both of those with a really old sensor. Hard to believe.

So I think the math adds up and the trend of the charts is not looking any better for Red. I am sure Red is doing and will do just fine, but I am out. Best of luck!
 
Zack Birlew said:
This chart really concerned me as I expected much more RED presence and I know that they're probably including documentaries and B-cameras in the mix but why can't RED seem to penetrate this market more than it is?
Click to expand...

Have you tried keeping your Red on the upgrade path? You need to be a wealthy person to keep buying into this camera line (in order to produce the latest Red look). Compare this to the Canon line-up, in which pretty much any Canon cinema camera from the last few years nails the “Canon look”. I’ve never had someone send me home from a job because my Canon gear was “wrong”. But man, you show up with your MX gear to a professional shoot and it’s like you brought a Fisher Price camera. You can’t even run the MX as a B camera since it’s so loud, the set has to plan around you hitting the power button (and ruining everyone’s audio).

Also, let’s not ignore the media cost. Most of the cameras listed in that chart cost less than a few sticks of Red media. Only the Arri could be considered more expensive.

So you have a massive investment, which is quickly outdated (and “wrong”), which takes even more money to stay current (to have the “right” sensor). Is there any other camera on the market like that? No, no other camera is this hard to love. And I do love my MX. I just can’t get a single person to book it for a shoot. It’s an exquisite piece of history, like my Arri 16mm film camera. Absolutely gorgeous, not very practical over time.
 
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I was actually heartened by this infographic given the Academy Award film infographics which appear to be even more dominated by a certain German company. Separate discussion, but appears that brand loyalty is strong in the studio system...
 
Hugh Scully said:
It seems odd that so many big films, not necessarily indies, this year were shot on film and to my eye, RED looks more like Kodak film than Arri or Sony or any of them. All of the Arri stuff looks the same to me. I think that the Sony's and Canons continue to improve and people like them. I think we're due a resurgence.
Click to expand...
I have restored and color-corrected more than 100 feature projects shot on film over the last 4 years, and to me, Alexa feels more like raw Kodak negative off a scanner than any other camera. I know very well what film looks and "feels" like in terms of color, dynamic range, and how malleable it is in post.

I'm a big fan of Red Helium and that would be my second choice. I haven't had the pleasure to work on a DXL project yet, but judging by test footage it's excellent as well. We try to be as "format agnostic" as we can in post, and I almost don't care what it's shot on as long as it's at least 10-bit (or higher), well-exposed and well-lit. We're at the point now where any recent camera over $20,000 can yield great results. (And I've encountered very good material on Blackmagic Ursa Mini, too.)

Tim Morten said:
I was actually heartened by this infographic given the Academy Award film infographics which appear to be even more dominated by a certain German company. Separate discussion, but appears that brand loyalty is strong in the studio system...
Click to expand...

I haven't seen the infographic, but the link is here:

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/cameras-2018-oscar-nominated-films/

All the Oscar-nominated pictures are shot on some form of Alexa or Kodak film. I don't think it's a bias against Red (or against Panasonic or Canon or Sony)... I think it's the belief that "if we shoot on Alexa, that's one less thing to worry about." I've heard this sentiment expressed by non-technical producers before, and if I politely challenge it and say, "well, ya know, actually Red has some good stuff," they just cut me off and say, "it's just a line item in the budget, we don't care, easy dailies workflow, blah-blah-blah," and that's the end of it. From their point of view, 10 weeks of renting Camera Brand A vs. Camera Brand B vs. Camera Brand C is maybe 1/25th of the budget at most. (Assuming a $10M picture, $4000 a week for 10 weeks, $400K total for camera package.) The cost difference on camera packages is actually slight between Panavision DXL vs. Sony Venice vs. Alexa LF. I think costs might go up 50% if you shot on film, depending on footage per day.

There was a great old saying among I.T. people in the 1990s: "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" (hardware). I think producers are in that category, basically saying, "if we use Alexa, I won't have to worry about it." Committing to another camera requires a DP with a lot more power and sway over the process, and that's hard these days. Quite a few DPs I know tell me they get interviewed and are asked, "can you use Camera X?", and they reply, "well, I prefer Camera Y," and the producer says, "we've already made the deal. If you insist on Camera Y, we can find somebody else." I personally like seeing DPs have lots of choices out there, and I share their frustration at not always having control of the camera in a production. Let the artist choose his or her brush and canvas.
 
It's sad to see red become a niche product. But i guess it's on themselves for creating a niche product. R1 had so much potential...
Poor decision making (choosing more pixels over IQ requiring noisy cooling) and a modular camera design killed red for me.
 
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Milano Questa said:
It's sad to see red become a niche product. But i guess it's on themselves for creating a niche product. R1 had so much potential...
Poor decision making (choosing more pixels over IQ requiring noisy cooling) and a modular camera design killed red for me.
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Alexa, Venice, Varicam, all have fans.... LF is even fairly loud IMO. And there's more REDs out there even, so I would question why you think that's poor decision making.

DR currently exceeds those bodies with pretty damn good color at this point. Honestly even the most advent anti-RED corners have noticed that at this point.

I wholeheartedly disagree about the module camera design. It literally allows the cameras to be used in a variety of settings and you don't need to by a Mini, you make your camera whatever you want.

Also, this is a real name forum.

It's always been clear you have disliked RED, but I am curious when the last time you used one was?
 
I just got back from the BSC show in London; primarily most of the cameras I saw on the floor from most exhibitors were RED, then Venice, then Arri (very few Arri minis around... is this because of the new Netflix rules?)
 
David Ellison said:
I just got back from the BSC show in London; primarily most of the cameras I saw on the floor from most exhibitors were RED, then Venice, then Arri (very few Arri minis around... is this because of the new Netflix rules?)
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I guess, but not only Netflix rules. People are asking for uhd HDR mastring these days even none Netflix stuff. And mini is simply not latest and greatest from arri and as the LFs are short on supply they are more likely to be out working then on a show floor.
 
Does this really matter anymore? There are some great options out there for filmmakers and RED has always provided a great product to filmmakers. I personally don’t own a RED anymore for personal reasons, I own an Arri. That said, there are plenty of situations I shoot in that I rent and use RED cameras, Canons, Sony’s etc. IMO, Arri and RED make the best image on the market today especially with Monstro. I did a job second quarter of 2018 shooting the streets of LA at night for 3 consecutive nights. No other camera than Monstro could have offered us the same clean, quality of image at high ISOs and flexible resolution for post in a reasonably small enough package size that I could work on an Easyrig comfortably. The images were amazing. Do I love my Arri? Absolutely, but it wasn’t the right camera for the job. I have a million reasons I could give to support my Arri purchase but end of the day, again, does it really matter? Sundance is not the be all benchmark for filmmakers either IMO. I’ve been there the last 5 years in a row and have only seen a couple films in that time I even would consider watching a second time. So, who cares who shot on what? Just shoot with what works for you and don’t worry about the rest.
 
Phil Holland said:
Alexa, Venice, Varicam, all have fans.... LF is even fairly loud IMO. And there's more REDs out there even, so I would question why you think that's poor decision making.

DR currently exceeds those bodies with pretty damn good color at this point. Honestly even the most advent anti-RED corners have noticed that at this point.

I wholeheartedly disagree about the module camera design. It literally allows the cameras to be used in a variety of settings and you don't need to by a Mini, you make your camera whatever you want.

Also, this is a real name forum.

It's always been clear you have disliked RED, but I am curious when the last time you used one was?
Click to expand...

Hold your horses Mr triggered. I never disliked Red, i just dont like some of the choices they made in the past. I imagine if they made a 2.8k s35 ranger way back in 2009 (alongside a modular high res camera ofcourse, for those niche users) they would be in a much better position today. I'm not bashing Reds current line up. DR and image have improved, but Reds reputation has not. They'll always play second fiddle to Arri now. Which is why i sold my Hairblower-X.

But yeah, see you next year when Reds share has shrunken even further.
 
David Ellison said:
I just got back from the BSC show in London; primarily most of the cameras I saw on the floor from most exhibitors were RED, then Venice, then Arri (very few Arri minis around... is this because of the new Netflix rules?)
Click to expand...

Maybe because most ARRI Minis are already busy out on real shoots?
 
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