Steadicam Group Buy - Select your model

[Brett Harrison]

I can easily see the difference in resale value eclipsing the difference in offers between Proline and AP.

Still, if AP managed to lure all 60+ of the higher-tier buyers with a further reduction I think that would provide a financial tipping point.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

I can easily see the difference in resale value eclipsing the difference in offers between Proline and AP.

That's probably true, but I'm not buying a rig to resell it; I'm buying a rig to use.

 

[Brett Harrison]

That's probably true, but I'm not buying a rig to resell it; I'm buying a rig to use.

then buy the one that is best to use with the knowledge it hasn't affected your bottom line.

 

[Jean Maurizio]

That's probably true, but I'm not buying a rig to resell it; I'm buying a rig to use.

I think if/when you become very skilled, you can upgrade into superior rigs (titanium parts, brand like Tiffen...). At that point, the resale value is your friend

 

[Brett Harrison]

I think if/when you become very skilled, you can upgrade into superior rigs (titanium parts, brand like Tiffen...). At that point, the resale value is your friend

Right, you're always going to sell it at some stage, either because you cease business or business gets better or worse. Also the name recognition will create more opportunities to recover cost.

I think if there can be one more price tier at the 40 or 60 mark then the difference in price would cease the debate.

Though, is the Raptor suitable for the R1?

 

[David Kellermann]

Though, is the Raptor suitable for the R1?

The arm can carry a stripped down version of the RED one, but if you add cinema lenses, some batteries and accessories, the rig will be to heavy for the arm.

Raptor Arm: Dual segment arm up to 28 pounds (ca. 12.7 kg) load capacity.

I don't think that right now the Raptor is really an option for us, since many members of the group buy want to use their RED one. Before thinking about the resell value, we should sit back and think what's best for the group buy. Sure we all want the best quality for the lowest price. Still opting for a rig because it has a better resell value and by that disabling some of us to get a system that they can use is not an option for me.

I asked ActionProducts for different spring option, so that RED one owners could also use it, and if the price can be lowered even further (again this price is disabling many to participate in the group buy).

I didn't started this group buy to please a small group and let the others stand in the rain, because their group isn't large enough anymore for the product they can afford!

 

[Chris Poynton]

... back in the old days most manufacturers refered to camera weight capacity refering to their arm and not the total sled camera combination.
So please make sure than when a manufacturer says 28 pounds for example , make sure it doesnt refer just to the camera weight and not the over all weight.

Good point Constantine! Generally the specifications for arms go no further than weight ranges (as you say - not even specifying if it is "total sled weight" or just "camera weight") and convey no information about the "feel" or human lift profiles required for various loads.

I also raised some questions about the ProLine arm website specs and load ranges in another thread devoted to the recent Proline test video at http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...nty-CA-Meetup-Came-Steadycam-Stabilizer/page4

I hope that all the arm sellers can come to the party a bit more and begin to discuss their iso-elasticity data and characteristics. It is new terrain in terms of marketing but definitely a worthwhile frontier.

 

[Karl Kim]

David,
Are you going to start a separate AP Raptor group buy thread? Do you want someone else to start one? My guess is that there will be at least 40 ProLine buyers and hopefully 20 Raptor buyers, but hard to say. Unless a seasoned steadi op evaluates the Proline, it's hard to say which is truly the better rig for an occasional user.

A number of seasoned ops have used or even own an AP stabilizer, so AP is a known product in the steadicam community.

Both stabilizers now have US distributors, so if you live in the US of A, that is important.

You have the numbers for a group buy on the Proline, and should not lose this opportunity. A separate thread should be started for AP, because if the numbers aren't there, there will still be an opportunity for that group to purchase a Proline.

 

[Omkar Gauchan]

I want to be on the list for ProLine

 

[Chris Poynton]

I will personally tell you that the term isoelasticity which isnt really a true term , as there is NO ISOLEASTIC 100% arm is not necessarilly a good thing .... Now the data you are looking for, no manufacturer will give it to you, and to be quite honnest it doesnt really matter that much. because it changes over diffferent loads.

Iso-elastic is just a Tiffen trademark but it means essentially that the human lift required is small and "almost even" over the entire boom range. There are shades of grey and not everyone needs/wants an arm that performs that way, but it is a well-used term and a benchmark of performance that many people refer to and/or expect.
What that term translates to is a "flat curve" if you are plotting boom height v. human lift.
Certainly there will be a change in the performance curve for each different load on the arm. That is why it is helpful to see multiple curves specified for the arm under varying key loads ... to establish if it is a good "all rounder" or if it only has a very narrow "sweet spot".
If manufacturers think their arm performance is great, and they want to promote it, then using multiple data curves is the only objective way to do that.
Established high-end companies (e.g. Tiffen, GPI-PRO) may not feel the market pressure to release that info, but it is in the interests of low-end providers to do so.

 

[David Kellermann]

Splitting the group buy will leave 2/3 of the group, those who can't afford an ActionCam, standing in the rain without any rig at all, because the price of a ProLine would than be also to high, given the smaller group size.

I haven't done all the work to let people who just think about their own interest destroy a chance for many!

If the ActionCam gets to the same price point as the ProLine, offer's the same installments plan and if it's confirmed that the arm can be equipped with stronger springs to carry a RED one with accessories, I would change my mind. But right now, I can't support an ActionCam group buy which destroys the ProLine group buy.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

I have used many different rigs, mostly Gidecam and Streadicam. I took the week long workshop and got my certification. I understand how much practice it takes to be a skilled operator. Having said that, I stand by what I said earlier... The PROLine 40-80+ offer is WAY less than the AP offer. If the two offers were close, I would jump all over the AP, but the offers are not even close.

Resale value? Trust me, if you buy the PROLine at the 40-80+ price point, you'll be able to resell it and get your money back when you're ready to buy your $22, 000 rig and go to work on Hawaii Five-O.

In the meantime, the PROLine is a well built rig that is priced at a price that many of us can afford. It's not a Chinese knock-off... it's a quality product.

Constantine is lobbying for the PROLine group to jump up a tier and get the Raptor... That's like lobbying for the Laing group to jump up to the PROLine. It makes no sense. Again, wrong thread.

Most of the PROLine group is really in the L'aigle price bracket, but are stretching themselves to the PROLine 40-80+ prices because those prices are actually reasonably close to the L'aigle prices, whereas the AP is not anywhere near the PROLine 40-80+ prices. If it were, I'm sure most of us would jump ship to the AP. So yes, it is all about the discount we are getting VS the product we are receiving, and the PROLine has offered the best bang-for-the-buck.

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

If the ActionCam gets to the same price point as the ProLine, offer's the same installments plan and if it's confirmed that the arm can be equipped with stronger springs to carry a RED one with accessories, I would change my mind. But right now, I can't support an ActionCam group buy which destroys the ProLine group buy.

I think it is also important to fully specify shipping price for each options and include all taxes buyer must pay. For EU member of your group buy it'll be very significant sum.

For ActionCam situation can be better for EU members.

In the meantime, the PROLine is a well built rig that is priced at a price that many of us can afford. It's not a Chinese knock-off... it's a quality product.

As I already said, it is Indian sled (with new clamps) and vest, plus custom arm (that was never made in big quantities). So, resale value is unknown.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

For ActionCam situation can be better for EU members.

This is simply not true. There's no way taxes and shipping to EU will come anywhere near $2, 000.

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

This is simply not true. There's no way taxes and shipping to EU will come anywhere near $2, 000.

You misunderstand me. I did not mean that taxes will make total expanses equal.
For EU citizens shipping and taxes part will be much smaller for ActionCam and information about them must be added to proposals.
For ProLine they will be significant for people located outside US.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Kostas it's clear as day to me you're just speaking from the heart about a topic you care about, and I've appreciated your input over the course of this discussion.

Don't let the PMing members get you down, there's a reason they didn't post publicly.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

You misunderstand me. I did not mean that taxes will make total expanses equal.
For EU citizens shipping and taxes part will be much smaller for ActionCam and information about them must be added to proposals.
For ProLine they will be significant for people located outside US.

Can you stay out of this Vitaliy? We all know there are import/tax issues to deal with when importing things into the EU. I know it's hard to resist taking a cheap shot at a competitor, especially one you lost a good chunk of your group buy customers to, but do try.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

Hello Carey. You are absolutelly wrong in your asaptions Iam afraid. . I am saying my opinion about every system that comes by with an offer. Before AP gave an offer, I said my oppinion about what I think is best from LAANGLE and PROLINE, as well as laing. Now that I show the offer of AP toward proline, I have told you my opinion about AP VERSUS pROLINE. As I explained Iam not goin to buy any of those cause a) I own a high end system alreadym and secondly I have retired from steadicam 2 years ago. So please dont make assaptions and dont say things that you are not sure off. If you cant take the true opinion of an operator that was active for more than 14 years and on the other hand you want to hear that for example laing is briliant and its a pro rig, or evemn Proline is a rig of higherst quality for a fraction of a cost of a Xy stage of a pro system then go ahead and belive that.It looks like when you have tyo explain beginers what is best for them, and before they even have the experience to judge what they are talking about , all they care is just get a big discount. Please call all the respected manufacturers and ask them the reasomn why they are so much more expensive and maybe tyou will learn something.In the mean time you are still free to get what ever ypou like, noone is trying to destroy anything for you.
You guys first ask for hands on opinion and then when someone gives it to you , you are suspecting that he is lobying for personal interest. So if you think Iam destroing your super extra offer I ll be glad to stop posting, its just that many people start emailing me in privet and I got the impression that you guys were interested in learnng whats out there and not what sounds better in your ears in$$$.in fact try to be a little less rude when you are making assaptions.
You can call the ventor anytime or any other manufacturer and find out that Iam not involved in any kinda promotion, in fact get to learn that this deal is really a non profitable deal for companies like AP or other high end manufacturers.
Indian make unknown matrerials and quality is what you are most li8kely to gert with your propotion.
then one day you will come back to my words sooner or later, if you manage to carry on doing this and it isnt just another toy stored in your attic.
I will never post anything else about steadicam in this thread.
good luck.

Hello Constantine.

If I'm misunderstanding you, then you are definitely misunderstanding me. You have proven that by saying I'm "absolutely wrong".

I challenge you to point out one thing I said that is "wrong".

I am in no way affiliated with any of these companies.

I am also not a newbie, so I'm going to pretend that many of your comments are not directed at me personally. I'm certain you're not telling me to be less rude because I have in no way been rude. I think it's very presumptuous to even call someone rude on a public forum where the tone one interprets from one's words is completely subjective.

I have merely stated my case as to why I believe the PROLine is a better offer for the group buy. I agree that the Raptor is probably a better product... that's not what I'm arguing here. I'm just pointing out the fact that the Raptor is out of the price range of many of the folks in the PROLine group buy.

I respect your opinion as a pro steadicam op, but you admitted yourself that you have never used the PROLine before... so all of your comments about the PROLine, other than its boom range and lack of name recognition, are completely speculative.

I said you were lobbying for the AP which is exactly what you have been doing. To lobby, is: to attempt to influence or sway toward a desired action. I never said you had a dog in the fight, just the fact that you were lobbying.

Feel free to give your opinion on this forum anytime you want, but please refrain from the personal attacks. You will never see a personal attack coming from me - it's bad etiquette.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Hello Constantine.

If I'm misunderstanding you, then you are definitely misunderstanding me. You have proven that by saying I'm "absolutely wrong".

I challenge you to point out one thing I said that is "wrong".

I am in no way affiliated with any of these companies.

I am also not a newbie, so I'm going to pretend that many of your comments are not directed at me personally. I'm certain you're not telling me to be less rude because I have in no way been rude. I think it's very presumptuous to even call someone rude on a public forum where the tone one interprets from one's words is completely subjective.

I have merely stated my case as to why I believe the PROLine is a better offer for the group buy. I agree that the Raptor is probably a better product... that's not what I'm arguing here. I'm just pointing out the fact that the Raptor is out of the price range of many of the folks in the PROLine group buy.

I respect your opinion as a pro steadicam op, but you admitted yourself that you have never used the PROLine before... so all of your comments about the PROLine, other than its boom range and lack of name recognition, are completely speculative.

I said you were lobbying for the AP which is exactly what you have been doing. To lobby, is: to attempt to influence or sway toward a desired action. I never said you had a dog in the fight, just the fact that you were lobbying.

Feel free to give your opinion on this forum anytime you want, but please refrain from the personal attacks. You will never see a personal attack coming from me - it's bad etiquette.

That's a fair point about Kostas not trying the Proline. It would be good if he could provide his reasoning explicitly.

I don't think you can say Kostas is lobbying. At most he's petitioning the group to go with AP, but he has no clout, or political interest, so it's not Lobbying.

David's point about the good of the group is a valid one. We are all beholden to the greater good of the group because we couldn't even hope for these opportunities without it.

You have to give David credit for posting the AP offer. There's no bias there for any particular manufacturer; he's just campaigning for the best deal for the group as a whole. He's probably put in many days of work to get it this far.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

PRO-LINE video thoughts from first look.
To start with the arm, at the end of the video I see that with the current load the system runs with the springs at the bottom end, so I would ask if the adjustment was for full max load? if it was then this arm operationally cannot really support this weight and the operator will use a lot of force to boom up , more contact more errors. The design is based on 3a 3 spring and its reliable and can be very strong lift method if the structure of the arm can support it, which in that case looks that it does. over all it looks good..
the vest to arm adjustment for this kinda weight camera-rig combinations really need to be the type that can be done with full load on. the reason is that the vest structure always tilts a little less or more with heavier sets and you will need to do this with the rig on to make the correct angle, so the arm doesnt fly towards or away from you. But of cource you can get it with this system as well, just think that you need to readjust a few times after testing with load.
the sled 2 inch post.It looks quite rigid the gimbal looks to be good, as for the precission I cannot comment as I havent seen a test . Also they refer to dynamic balance on the vid but I havent seen this in the video.
Good to have a drop in cable design.
the top stage of the sled , looks again good, I would test for rigidy , this is some problem most cheaper systems have and even much more establised companies had with various models.
so in other words it has to be solid with no play when locked after balancing the camera, because if they arent then you will have problems in dynamic balance and at extreme angle shots bad balance.
I would also improve the bottom rod clamp that supports the rods for the battery system if to fly 2 bats at the back, anything that might flexes can cause trouble.I just got the impression that its not as rigid but I might be wrong.
I would also make smaller and thinner junction box as in some angles while operating the box looks like it can mess up with your gimbal handle and hand. Keep those to minimum size is a clever thing and even mounting them in a different way is also an option.
the electronics seem to work well with the power distribution so thats a good thing.
the vest looks confortable but this is something that can or cant work out for different body structures, but it looks adjustable enough to do the job.
that is my first impression.
I wouldnt recoment to set a red one with a back battery like the way shown, as any vibration of the back system , the v mount, the cradle, or anything gets loose easily , can chane your rigs balance and add vibrations. Keep this as small and compact as possible.
last I will add that you will sooner or later add lens motors so Iam not sure but you will need to add somehow a power line for the motor rc so investicate if there is an option or solution from pro-line.
the system looks solid enough and a good first rig.
regards

This is what he said based on his viewing of the PROLine video... no actual testing.