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Steadicam Group Buy - Select your model

Steadicam Group Buy - Select your model

  • Total voters
    102
David Kellermann said:
This thread would be the place to discuss the AP Raptor, if it would be an option for all of us. I asked AP for a quote since I believe that they are manufacturing amazing products. I would never doubt the quality of the Raptor. But there are some other important factors, other than the quality:

1) Can most people in the group afford it?
2) Would creating a new group hurt the opportunity of the other group to purchase a rig that they can afford?
3) Does the product fulfill the needs of all members of the group (see strength of arm to carry a RED one)?

Or to put it in an economic context: let's try to maximize the gains of the group rather the gains of some individuals.

Cheers
David
Click to expand...

Wow!
Don´t forget we have a free market situation.
It´s not you or me or anybody else in this forum who makes a good group buy happen in the end. It´s the manufacturers.
If not you or another, I´ll maybe start a thread for the ones interested in the Raptor group buy.
Cheers
Marc
 
Marc Berger said:
Wow!
Don´t forget we have a free market situation.
It´s not you or me or anybody else in this forum who makes a good group buy happen in the end. It´s the manufacturers.
If not you or another, I´ll maybe start a thread for the ones interested in the Raptor group buy.
Cheers
Marc
Click to expand...

Read all the posts/threads. You're free to buy an Action Products rig right now if you wish on the free market.
 
Roy Rossovich said:
The AP does sound interesting if we know they can get within the Proline reach if they have the 50-60 people here interested on board. What is the latest?
Click to expand...

I asked AP for a quote for a 60+ group purchase. Will post any update, as soon as I get them.
 
Marc Berger said:
Wow!
Don´t forget we have a free market situation.
It´s not you or me or anybody else in this forum who makes a good group buy happen in the end. It´s the manufacturers.
If not you or another, I´ll maybe start a thread for the ones interested in the Raptor group buy.
Cheers
Marc
Click to expand...

You might want to go to the library and check out some basic economic literature. Especially have a look at game theory. There are some interesting examples like the prisoner's dilemma, modelling what happens if people in a group start to defect :smile:
 
Roy Rossovich said:
this seems to be kind of spiraling in all directions. I will stick to the original group, and see what is decided... cheers David
Click to expand...

I hope that the rest of us will give this group buy a chance, like you did. If it doesn't work out, there's still the option to form a smaller group to purchase a more expensive product. But right now, we should stick together and use the market power we have as a large group.
 
David Kellermann said:
I hope that the rest of us will give this group buy a chance, like you did. If it doesn't work out, there's still the option to form a smaller group to purchase a more expensive product. But right now, we should stick together and use the market power we have as a large group.
Click to expand...

For your hard work, and for my loyalty to it and to your person, i think every other group buy, opened by any other person, is a nonsense.

But also: don't choke into the Proline things like it should be a kind of Religion.

There is nothing bad to hear offers from other brands, since it seems you are convinced that Laing is the cheap thing, and Proline is God on earth, when we saw that vest and arm, in Proline offer, are from indian glidecam.

Reality is: that's cheap versus cheap (or maybe knockoff's war?), with the Pro.ine benefit to fly a lot of more weight.

You are talking about market theories, but the first poll said 80% want to spend what Laing cost. Now many from that poll are for Proline. That's the freedom to change our mind, in this we can grow and be satisfied.

Keep in mind two things, this one (unfortunally) is a great moment to buy things, and if you put 60-80 buyers together, you can also hear what Tiffen have to say. And obviously what AP have to say, and you can negotiate because you are not alone, you represent a lot of people, and a lot of people's CASH. I understand you made a great job, but don't feel tired now, stick with everybody have followed you in this, and try to negotiate at the best you can do, even with big fishes. If you do this, i think you will be surprised by the results. You can set the market with these numbers, don't underestimate the total cash and the time we are living in.

Thank you.

Jean
 
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Jean Maurizio said:
For your hard work, and for my loyalty to it and to your person, i think every other group buy, opened by any other person, is a nonsense.

But also: don't choke into the Proline things like it should be a kind of Religion.

There is nothing bad to hear offers from other brands, since it seems you are convinced that Laing is the cheap thing, and Proline is God on earth, when we saw that vest and arm, in Proline offer, are from indian glidecam.

Reality is: that's cheap versus cheap (or maybe knockoff's war?), with the Pro.ine benefit to fly a lot of more weight.

You are talking about market theories, but the first poll said 80% want to spend what Laing cost. Now many from that poll are for Proline. That's the freedom to change our mind, in this we can grow and be satisfied.

Keep in mind two things, this one (unfortunally) is a great moment to buy things, and if you put 60-80 buyers together, you can also hear what Tiffen have to say. And obviously what AP have to say, and you can negotiate because you are not alone, you represent a lot of people, and a lot of people's CASH. I understand you made a great job, but don't feel tired now, stick with everybody have followed you in this, and try to negotiate at the best you can do, even with big fishes. If you do this, i think you will be surprised by the results. You can set the market with these numbers, don't underestimate the total cash and the time we are living in.

Thank you.

Jean
Click to expand...

Hi Jean,

those threads are quite long, so it's hard to keep track of all the posts. But if you have a look at my previous post, you'll find that I asked AP to lower the price, contacted many manufacturers and dealers (even for Tiffen's steadicam), and also wrote that I believe in the superior quality of the Raptor.

You should also be careful about the information you take for granted. The arm and sled are made by ProLine, only the vest is made in India and later modified to suit the needs for the ProLine. Yes, I do believe that the ProLine best suits the needs of this group. That could change through a better offer by AP, for which I'm always open (I wrote Daryl from AP yesterday about lowering the price for a group of 60 or more people). And you might have read the quite long thread about modification to the Laing M02. Right now, it's good value for the money. If they would have implemented the modifications we suggested, it would have been amazing. The difference of the ProLine and Laing group buys to the ProLine vs. AP group buy is that they are not prohibiting each other, while a AP group buy (at the current price) would prohibit roughly 40 users to get a rig (other than the Laing which can't fly a RED one).
 
David Kellermann said:
Hi Jean,

those threads are quite long, so it's hard to keep track of all the posts. But if you have a look at my previous post, you'll find that I asked AP to lower the price, contacted many manufacturers and dealers (even for Tiffen's steadicam), and also wrote that I believe in the superior quality of the Raptor.

You should also be careful about the information you take for granted. The arm and sled are made by ProLine, only the vest is made in India and later modified to suit the needs for the ProLine. Yes, I do believe that the ProLine best suits the needs of this group. That could change through a better offer by AP, for which I'm always open (I wrote Daryl from AP yesterday about lowering the price for a group of 60 or more people). And you might have read the quite long thread about modification to the Laing M02. Right now, it's good value for the money. If they would have implemented the modifications we suggested, it would have been amazing. The difference of the ProLine and Laing group buys to the ProLine vs. AP group buy is that they are not prohibiting each other, while a AP group buy (at the current price) would prohibit roughly 40 users to get a rig (other than the Laing which can't fly a RED one).
Click to expand...

Hi David,

Glad you are following other leads too. :)
Is the AP rig able to fly a R1?
 
The arm and sled are made by ProLine, only the vest is made in India and later modified to suit the needs for the ProLine.
Click to expand...

David, let's be correct here. Arm is custom made. Vest and sled are from FlyCam set. Some clamps, top plate and adjustment head on sled are replaced to custom ones amde on CNC. May be some other minor things done.
Did not saw any modifications on vest.

I don't really like to interfere more, but it was required comment.
 
As the manufacturer of the ActionProducts "Raptor", I feel like I need to say something in response to this misunderstanding. I will try to keep it as general as possible:

- It was not our intension to cause any confusion. Initially, we first rejected to participate on the group-buy. This was for two reasons…. First: we do not offer a Rig in the price range of $2000 USD.
Second: We were planning for a long time now on making an introduction offer for the Raptor this month anyway. This though our international reseller Innocinmea. I mentioned this on my first email to David Kellermann, as it became clear that there was also interest in higher quality and priced rigs. We thought it might be fair to place our offer as an option now instead of later on our own thread.

- We are aware that our offer is in a higher price range and not for everybody. We only make a high quality standard product or not at all. It cost more money to make products in this way. Our intentions and understanding were always that buyers have their freedom to choose this as an option among any other options, not to disorganize or compromise the unity from the group coming together to buy another brand. If we had known it could have been misinterpreted in this way, we would have stuck to our own group-buy plans and never participated on this group-buy.

- The "Raptor" is designed for the EPIC/SCARLET and all cameras at a similar (or lighter) weight classes. Of course, it can be used for a light REDone setup, but it is not made for it. There is much more to a rig for heavier cameras then just a stronger arm.

- The only professional way of naming a load capacity for an arm is the weight the arm can carry, NEVER camera load. This is because the camera is only one part of the whole setup. You will also need batteries, monitor, and other various accessories. Even if you just use an EPIC monitor (which is possible BTW) or an 8" high bright monitor, there is a big difference in weight variance of the Sled. Gold-Mount or V-Mount batteries also have different weights and add weight to the whole set-up. If you want a "short" rig, you need extra weight on the counter side of the post, with a long post, less weight, and so on.

- We have received several emails because of the "Raptor" Group-buy from customers that waited a long time for the "Raptor". They are now urging me to keep the offer up. David should have made this very clear that he was limiting the group-buy to a single rig before asking me (TWICE) to participate here. We wouldn't have participated and would have gone on with our original plans, which would have been an offer two weeks before NAB2013.

- I contacted David about this yesterday, so he is informed how I feel about this. I told him that I was always expecting that the group-buy would end with 2 or 3 different groups. As we are the higher priced rigs, I didn't see any sense in making an offer over 20+ units. Not to mention the fact that the offer is already under what I originally planned for the introduction sale, so we reached the limit here already.

With all that said, it was NEVER our intention to cause any trouble here. In the name of our company I want to make it very clear that we did not want to sabotage the thread. If David wishes us to redraw our offer I will be happy to do so. We will keep to our original plan and post our introduction offer later this month. However, we made an offer here and people are already asking me to keep it. If Marc wants to offer this line of buyers an option, I think that is his right to do so.

Sincerity,

Daryl Goff (ActionProducts)
 
Daryl E. Goff said:
We first rejected to participate on the group-buy. This was for two reasons…. First: we do not offer a Rig in the price range of $2000 USD.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your detail text and clarification Daryl.

I just want to copy and paste following (just in case you missed it) and suggest you re-consider your terms (above). If not its fully understandable and good luck.

"This is a really good opportunity for any LUCKY SELLER. Most of us have no problem giving great exposure to their product in the professional film world that last for years. Our community spend money, and lots of it. We all professional and shoot every week with rotating crews. Other communities can see us using their smart gears. We use kit out in the field, we talk to other people & other communities in our business....."

please user Hit "+1" if you agree with above, let them know how serious we are
 
How quickly can Pro Line deliver our orders? That's going to be the deciding factor for me.
 
Kwan Khan said:
Thanks for your detail text and clarification Daryl.

I just want to copy and paste following (just in case you missed it) and suggest you re-consider your terms (above). If not its fully understandable and good luck.

"This is a really good opportunity for any LUCKY SELLER. Most of us have no problem giving great exposure to their product in the professional film world that last for years. Our community spend money, and lots of it. We all professional and shoot every week with rotating crews. Other communities can see us using their smart gears. We use kit out in the field, we talk to other people & other communities in our business....."
Click to expand...

+1!
 
Daryl E. Goff said:
As the manufacturer of the ActionProducts "Raptor", I feel like I need to say something in response to this misunderstanding. I will try to keep it as general as possible:

- It was not our intension to cause any confusion. Initially, we first rejected to participate on the group-buy. This was for two reasons…. First: we do not offer a Rig in the price range of $2000 USD.
Second: We were planning for a long time now on making an introduction offer for the Raptor this month anyway. This though our international reseller Innocinmea. I mentioned this on my first email to David Kellermann, as it became clear that there was also interest in higher quality and priced rigs. We thought it might be fair to place our offer as an option now instead of later on our own thread.

- We are aware that our offer is in a higher price range and not for everybody. We only make a high quality standard product or not at all. It cost more money to make products in this way. Our intentions and understanding were always that buyers have their freedom to choose this as an option among any other options, not to disorganize or compromise the unity from the group coming together to buy another brand. If we had known it could have been misinterpreted in this way, we would have stuck to our own group-buy plans and never participated on this group-buy.

- The "Raptor" is designed for the EPIC/SCARLET and all cameras at a similar (or lighter) weight classes. Of course, it can be used for a light REDone setup, but it is not made for it. There is much more to a rig for heavier cameras then just a stronger arm.

- The only professional way of naming a load capacity for an arm is the weight the arm can carry, NEVER camera load. This is because the camera is only one part of the whole setup. You will also need batteries, monitor, and other various accessories. Even if you just use an EPIC monitor (which is possible BTW) or an 8" high bright monitor, there is a big difference in weight variance of the Sled. Gold-Mount or V-Mount batteries also have different weights and add weight to the whole set-up. If you want a "short" rig, you need extra weight on the counter side of the post, with a long post, less weight, and so on.

- We have received several emails because of the "Raptor" Group-buy from customers that waited a long time for the "Raptor". They are now urging me to keep the offer up. David should have made this very clear that he was limiting the group-buy to a single rig before asking me (TWICE) to participate here. We wouldn't have participated and would have gone on with our original plans, which would have been an offer two weeks before NAB2013.

- I contacted David about this yesterday, so he is informed how I feel about this. I told him that I was always expecting that the group-buy would end with 2 or 3 different groups. As we are the higher priced rigs, I didn't see any sense in making an offer over 20+ units. Not to mention the fact that the offer is already under what I originally planned for the introduction sale, so we reached the limit here already.

With all that said, it was NEVER our intention to cause any trouble here. In the name of our company I want to make it very clear that we did not want to sabotage the thread. If David wishes us to redraw our offer I will be happy to do so. We will keep to our original plan and post our introduction offer later this month. However, we made an offer here and people are already asking me to keep it. If Marc wants to offer this line of buyers an option, I think that is his right to do so.

Sincerity,

Daryl Goff (ActionProducts)
Click to expand...

Hi Daryl,

thank you for posting here. It's not my intention at all to keep people from purchasing your products, especially since I think that they are totally awesome. Also I never intended to blame you on disrupting this group buy. Anyway, you don't know the price of the ProLine or the other rigs, so your offer was just as legitimate as the others. Again, I never asked you to withdraw your offer, in fact I asked you to extend you offer to a larger group, if possible.

My harsh posts were about users who first wanted to participate in this group buy and now defect the moment they see a better opportunity for themselves, ignoring the damage their actions might have for others.

Having a group buy mostly implies getting as many people together as possible to purchase one item in order to get a special price, so, for my understanding, it's intuitive that we're focusing on one item.

Cheers
David
 
Daryl E. Goff said:
If Marc wants to offer this line of buyers an option, I think that is his right to do so.

Sincerity,

Daryl Goff (ActionProducts)
Click to expand...

Hello Mr. Daryl

David is the group buy organizer, i don't think other people, unless they are your partners or your sales manager, could sell something here. It's not a "right to do so", it's the trust we gave to David putting our name in the group, and he's working hard for us since the beginning, so it's a respect for the man. If another person will pop up with a group buy, i'll retract my intention to buy, and with me i think many other users here.


Regards

Jean
 
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Jean Maurizio said:
Hello Mr. Daryl

David is the group buy organizer, i don't think other people, unless they are your partners or your sales manager, could sell something here. It's not a "right to do so", it's the trust we gave to David putting our name in the group, and he's working hard for us since the beginning, so it's a respect for the man. If another person will pop up with a group buy, i'll retract my intention to buy, and with me i think many other users here.


Regards

Jean
Click to expand...

Thank you for the trust you and others place in me. I truly hope that I can live up to it.

I get kind of weird PMs in the last days, suggesting that I'm trying to sell the ProLine rig.

Yes, I do favor this rig, because I think, given the current offers, it's the rig that best suits the needs of the members of this group. And no, I don't work for ProLine. I originally contacted ProLine after some other users suggested me to get into contact with them. The rig first came up, I think, in a thread started by Kwan about the Laing.

I updated the ProLine blog post with the final price, given a group purchase of 60+ units. The 80+ price of course is still valid. Luciano will send me later the password for the reduser webshop on his page. He'll also send me a time frame as to when we could expect the delivery of the rigs.

As to the AP products. Other than ProLine, ActionProducts don't have to make a name for themselves anymore. Their products are wildly known to perform excellently. So I can understand if they don't want to or can't lower the price for the Raptor. It's not really cheap to produce goods in Switzerland (they are the deluxe version of German engineering), and they also offer a more advanced vest than ProLine.
 
Thanks David and I am glad we are getting close to purchase time here, I'm sure you will be relieved when this is over. We all definitely owe you one for all your hard work, dedication and patience on this. As long as we can get to the new 60+ price, I am most likely in too.

Just to confirm and to the people who tested the rig, it sounds like things were very positive and that the improvements over the Laing are well worth it? Are there any negatives or potential issues or workarounds that we should be aware about before purchasing?
 
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