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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

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I'm just completely blown away by how beautiful, creamy and filmic the F55 footage looks.. Unreal
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
What I want is an even faster read-reset - much better than global shutter IMO. If you think a global shutter has a perfect "film-like" result - you haven't looked at enough tests. And if you think a 35mm camera is without shutter issues on certain movements/speeds ...

That said - I think with the current advances in sensor tech - you need to test and evaluate. Period. It's a bit foolish to assume that global shutter today better than a faster read-reset sensor tomorrow.
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If tests exist which prove to the contrary of what I've already seen then I don't know where to find them and I never said it had a perfect film like response I said, and it's quoted so maybe you skimmed my statement pretty quickly that it was closer to global shutter then rolling.
 
Jay Birch said:
$6k.... Not sure about the weight, but for a RED Epic to be able to do dual recording (raw and 4K edit ready) you will need the Meizler module too... So probably similar
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For now...until the "Toia" module comes out, aka the "Jule Box". I'm assuming that will be quite a bit smaller than the Meizler module, as it only does a fraction of the functionality.
 
I've held a whole F55 rig with a recorder, Battery, Optimo DP Zoom, FF, LMB, shoulder rig and monitor and it was very light, not much different from an Epic setup.
 
Meizler Module doesn't do 4k, costs $13k because of expensive features most people probably won't need, and if you need XLRs you're boned (or have to use 3.5mm) as I don't think you can use ProIO & Meizler simultaneously (and if you could, it'd be an unwieldy beast of a bazooka-cam).

What I'd like to see from RED is a module adapter with 2xXLR (mini-XLRs) for around $500 and a 4k ProRes (or equivalently baked-in 4k... 4k .RED maybe?) module that records to non-proprietary media for $4500. Anything other than that is (ironically) playing catch-up for more money than the competition (whose street price for RAW box is gonna be ~$5k).
 
I read posts trying to discount the importance of global shutter, as if rolling shutter artifacts are not that big a deal. They are, especially when you see it big screen. There's a reason why DP's routinely shoot Red at 144 degrees. It's because the rolling shutter at 180 often creates a sometimes phony looking motion with more frenetic sequences. This is less than an ideal solution. And then there's the issue of flashes and strobes.

Another area that seems to get scant mention is the importance of 16 bit color. The flesh tones on the F65 are superb and IMO surpass the Epic, in terms of capturing the full tonality of skin while leaving backgrounds as is. I believe much of this is from the 16 bit. To introduce this in a camera as small as the F55/5 is great. One of the problems I've run into when grading R3D is nailing great flesh tones. Skin is perfect, walls are green. Walls are great, skin is magenta, etc. That said, I'm hoping Dragon will take care of much of this as I feel it'll be as big a leap as Mysterium to MX. Should it get 16 bit and global, we have ourselves a horserace.

Also, I'd love to hear commentary on the ergonomics. The F55 with its eyepiece way forward, record modules and power in the back looks like a great balanced camera for handheld. The shoulder pad looks as simple as Alexa's solution. Just throw on hand grips and go. The balance reminds me of ENG cameras. Epic as many of us know is not the ideal handheld camera and requires special rigs which often come at great expense and are bit of a drama to switch from studio to shoulder and back. You rarely see Clutches in the field for these reasons.

Working in TV and movies where I often switch over several times a day, no one has time for that. It must be done in seconds, with minimal to no adjustments. I believe that the balanced and simple approach is large part of Alexa's success and Sony has embraced that. The Alexa show I'm on right now, camera pops off O'Connor and lands right onto my shoulder, grips and shoulder pad already built in. No balancing at all. Not only do I love it as an op, but producers notice the time saving. Try that with a Mantis. I do wish both F55 and Meizler had a curve on the bottom for built in shoulder support. Simplifies everything.

Does anyone find the approach of your having your primary settings (ISO, Shutter, Time Code, Frame Rate, Color Temp, LUT) with dedicated buttons readily displayed without the need of a touch screen an advantage or not? Most people who use Alexas do, and Sony has followed suite. I personally like to minimize the number of monitors sprouting from my camera. Too many affects the CG as well as making it unwieldy.

Regarding the picture of any the recent Sony films, I don't have much to say until I see the Log they started with. I feel they went all out to accentuate sharpness and saturation to show how much the camera could offer to the detriment of a more natural looking image. I'd love to see some less aggressive grades. I know how many people used tell me how crap Red looked, and I'd say take a look this (my footage or other DP's who understood the camera) and they were dumbfounded. In an instant, they were converted. It's like that Zacuto "test", different DP's either made diamonds from dirt or mucked the whole thing up, giving us no clue as to whether the cameras or DP's were to credit or blame. I think we're seeing a milder version of this phenomena of trying to glean objective truths from something subjective as with the recent F55/5 shorts. Deakins save us from ourselves!
 
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WOW F5s final price is only 16.5k amazing!



Considering the dynamic range and the 4k capabilities for only a few k extra and the high fps I wonder how Red will and can respond with scarlet firmware and or dragon.
 
Vladimir Druts said:
WOW F5s final price is only 16.5k amazing!



Considering the dynamic range and the 4k capabilities for only a few k extra and the high fps I wonder how Red will and can respond with scarlet firmware and or dragon.
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Yeah considering the F5 isn't available for another 1.5 months and Dragon is supposedly slated to start rolling out before then, it gives RED some room to come up with an interesting response. We shall see.

Then again I've had the FS700 for months and it does twice as high framerates as the F5 for less than half the price (and may have the same sensor?), and I unfortunately find myself using my FS700 much more than my Scarlet lately...
 
Vladimir Druts said:
WOW F5s final price is only 16.5k amazing!



Considering the dynamic range and the 4k capabilities for only a few k extra and the high fps I wonder how Red will and can respond with scarlet firmware and or dragon.
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I thought the F5 only output 1080p? Downscaled from 4k? But you don't get actual 4K from the F5 right? Only the F55.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I thought the F5 only output 1080p? Downscaled from 4k? But you don't get actual 4K from the F5 right? Only the F55.
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you get 4k if you get their 4k recording module that records to their 4k raw. or you can do 4k internally to their new sxs cards in their new avc based codec. linear baked 4k log in a high quality compressed format. there is a lot of demand for that...

f55 can do all the same but more FPS, and using the f65 sensor so wider color gamut supposedly, possibly a sharper 4k overall because it's oversampling higher, and possibly more dynamic range at a lower s/n ratio. lower sensitivity though because of the global shutter. and oh yeah, global shutter :D
 
Sadly to said but the F55 camera have NOT sensor like F65 one. F65 have a 20 megapixel sensor. F55 have only 11.6. Thats twice lower. F65 footage looks very very sharp at 4k. Very far sharper than EPIC's 5k downsampled to 4k. But as I said it is F65. The price of F65 camera allows us to buy 3 x EPICs now. F55 uses only 8.9 Megapixels. So picture must looks much smoother and softer than F65 footage. Even if they implements F65 technology of sensor to F55 camera.

Let's wait for the F55 raw footage to compare.

P.S. Last times it is hard to understand under marketing campains what _megapixel_ is. In F65 20Mp is not the pixels. It is 20 millions of photosites. Every 4 photosites makes a one pixel with R,G and B parameters (they use 2 greens and one blue and one red photosites to create one pixel). Mathematics tells to us that talking about 4K using the 8.9 Megapixel (photosites) sensor is impossible. Because we really have only 8,9/4=2.25 megaPIXELS here. This information tells us that even F65 camera is not true 4K camera. It have true green channel information only but the R and B channels are interpolates between nearby pixels. To get real 4K picture we need 4096x2160*4=35.4M of photosites. By this "marketing" terms we can name the F65 camera as "8K" camera. Because it have 8K of photosites along the X axis of a sensor.
Much more information about it you can find in the F65 brochure: http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/F65_Camera.pdf
 
Tom.Wong said:
you get 4k if you get their 4k recording module that records to their 4k raw. or you can do 4k internally to their new sxs cards in their new avc based codec. linear baked 4k log in a high quality compressed format. there is a lot of demand for that...

f55 can do all the same but more FPS, and using the f65 sensor so wider color gamut supposedly, possibly a sharper 4k overall because it's oversampling higher, and possibly more dynamic range at a lower s/n ratio. lower sensitivity though because of the global shutter. and oh yeah, global shutter :D
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The F5 doesn't do 4k on board only 2k, to get 4k out of the F5 you need the RAW recorder only the F55 records 4k onboard with the SXS cards.
 
Craig W. Bickerstaff said:
The F5 doesn't do 4k on board only 2k, to get 4k out of the F5 you need the RAW recorder only the F55 records 4k onboard with the SXS cards.
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ah ok my mistake, just thought it was mostly a framerate difference. makes sense for the price points though.
 
Andrey B said:
Sadly to said but the F55 camera have NOT sensor like F65 one. F65 have a 20 megapixel sensor. F55 have only 11.6. Thats twice lower. F65 footage looks very very sharp at 4k. Very far sharper than EPIC's 5k downsampled to 4k. But as I said it is F65. The price of F65 camera allows us to buy 3 x EPICs now. F55 uses only 8.9 Megapixels. So picture must looks much smoother and softer than F65 footage. Even if they implements F65 technology of sensor to F55 camera.

Let's wait for the F55 raw footage to compare.

P.S. Last times it is hard to understand under marketing campains what _megapixel_ is. In F65 20Mp is not the pixels. It is 20 millions of photosites. Every 4 photosites makes a one pixel with R,G and B parameters (they use 2 greens and one blue and one red photosites to create one pixel). Mathematics tells to us that talking about 4K using the 8.9 Megapixel (photosites) sensor is impossible. Because we really have only 8,9/4=2.25 megaPIXELS here. This information tells us that even F65 camera is not true 4K camera. It have true green channel information only but the R and B channels are interpolates between nearby pixels. To get real 4K picture we need 4096x2160*4=35.4M of photosites. By this "marketing" terms we can name the F65 camera as "8K" camera. Because it have 8K of photosites along the X axis of a sensor.
Much more information about it you can find in the F65 brochure: http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/F65_Camera.pdf
Click to expand...

But the sensor on the F55 IS like the sensor on the F65, although they have different numbers of photosites there are many more aspects of a sensor to consider than the number of photosites, such as the arraignment pattern of said photosites, the quality and materials of the color filters overlaying each photosite, the placement of the photosites and capacitors, etc. In this regard the F65 sensor and the F55 sensor are the same except in number of photosites.

Also to lambast the F65 for not being true 8K because they are only counting photosites is unfair unless you also criticize Red cameras for making the same claims.

I say all this not to say that one camera is better than the other for a given production, but I do feel the desire to combat the severe skew to the side of Red, although understandable on the Red forum, is unfair to the credibility of other cameras.
 
Adam Watson said:
But the sensor on the F55 IS like the sensor on the F65, although they have different numbers of photosites there are many more aspects of a sensor to consider than the number of photosites, such as the arraignment pattern of said photosites, the quality and materials of the color filters overlaying each photosite, the placement of the photosites and capacitors, etc. In this regard the F65 sensor and the F55 sensor are the same except in number of photosites.
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The only thing that's the same between the F55's sensor and the F65's is the color dye in the filter. The F55's filter is a standard bayer filter (not the funky Q67 bayer filter), and the global shutter and higher sensitivity of the F55's sensor indicates it's a very different sensor than the F65's.
 
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