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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

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Mark L. Pederson said:
Well ... this is what I call "the big Alexa workflow lie" - since you have to record Log-C to get best image out of an Alexa - every single TV show I know of shooting on it does in fact transcode because a color transform needs to be applied - not to mention the MAJORITY of shows cut Avid on DNxHD.

Success of the Alexa was heavily driven, IMO, by ease of use and AC friendly button UI - added to a brand loyalty built over decades. Also, the Alexa hit the market at the time that RED was heavily disrupting and therefore getting some people upset. So ... the Alexa became the "anti-RED" camera to many folks.

Trust me - when you see how easy it is to adjust color, curves, etc. - wireless and in real time with an iPad or even iPhone with Meizler Module and simultaneously capture RAW and ProRes or DNxHD with the applied color/look transform - TV productions will have a hard time paying CO3, etc. $300 per hour to apply DIT created LUTs to ProRes Log-C and transcode to DNxHD. Or pay $5K + per week for an near-set lab operator and cart.
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well said, color transform and transcoding is always part of the chain. the job for custom color on set I feel like should and will always be in place. because not a great deal of dp's are happy with a 709 or stock gamma out of the camera. especially in a commercial world where they'll never get to sit in on the color session, and dailies is the only way they have to convey of what they want out of the image. but I think meizler will just make the job easier, smaller footprint on set for DIT, and no need for finicky red rockets on set. Honestly the less I have to use that card on set, the better. I think it's just gonna change the a few rules of the ball game but won't change the game completely. But the new rules will just make things a lot easier, faster, and better for everybody.
 
I hope you mention Dalsa as the pioneers of 4k aquisition when speaking of 4k history.. I know that they went out of the business long time ago, but their origin camera was an amazing tool for image capture and delivered an amazing 4k images that stunned everyonehistory at that time..
I'm a strong Red fan since 2006.. Just want to mention dalsa as they were really the first to tackle the 4k technology to film makers..
Cheers
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Success of the Alexa was heavily driven, IMO, by ease of use and AC friendly button UI - added to a brand loyalty built over decades. Also, the Alexa hit the market at the time that RED was heavily disrupting and therefore getting some people upset. So ... the Alexa became the "anti-RED" camera to many folks.
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While that's generally true, you know as well as I do that there were a number of other reasons as well, such as the images produced, the level of complication/cost involved in various finishing processes, and other things, Why a product becomes somewhat dominant in one market segment is rarely boiled down to a single, simple answer. It is almost always a combination of various factors, and that is the case in the television market. And what you call "disruption" some might have seen as "antagonism." Not me, but you know what I mean....

Trust me - when you see how easy it is to adjust color, curves, etc. - wireless and in real time with an iPad or even iPhone with Meizler Module and simultaneously capture RAW and ProRes or DNxHD with the applied color/look transform - TV productions will have a hard time paying CO3, etc. $300 per hour to apply DIT created LUTs to ProRes Log-C and transcode to DNxHD. Or pay $5K + per week for an near-set lab operator and cart.
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Mark, you know full well that network level shows require more out a dailies process than simply transcoding files. Color correction is, quite frankly, the least of it. They require double system sound sync (sometimes with custom mixes), use and passage of ASC CDL values (whether they're actually ever used in final grading is another story, but I digress....), proper identification of each and every take regardless of missed slates, ID's, or incorrect camera or sound reports, reporting of any problems, transcoding not just to DNx36 but also to different flavors of H.264 for various digital dailies services, creation of DVD ISO's (yes, they're still made and used..), often with custom shot re-ordering, creation of burned in windows (often different configurations on different deliverables) and watermarks (present on some deliverables but not on others), uploading on a timely basis all of those files to various places that might or might not include digital dailies services (both outside and inside the producing studio), editorial, and the production office, multiple backups of all source files including LTO tapes (with verification) and timely transport of all of those files to the finishing location (Los Angeles about 90% of the time), and the ability to do certain deliverables for all takes while doing other deliverables only for select takes. That's far more about data and material management, as well as an understanding of the post process, than it is about ease of color correction. The on set color/near set dailies model has proven to be very economical and very efficient given all of those requirements that I don't see disappearing any time soon. It is a model that works well for both television and the highest of high end features, which can and often does involve much larger data payloads, especially in the case of productions recording formats like Arri Raw and F65 RAW. Michael Cioni has talked quite a bit about using that approach on some of his projects, we at Technicolor (and Laser Pacific and Next Element before that) have been doing it for over 3 years now and continue to do it on both television series (including one shooting F65 RAW Lite) and features (some small, and some very, very large ones that I'm not free to talk about at the moment, but they have involved every format from ProRes 4444 to Arri Raw to F65 RAW). None of the dailies on those productions went through a facility, they were all created and delivered directly from the location based system.

The only way I see this becoming an outdated model is if the production companies and studios change their deliverables approach and simplify what needs to be created and the time factors for doing so. If anything, the opposite always seems to be the case, with deliverable lists getting longer, more varied, and more complex all the time. Indie productions don't have to deal with that. Studio level television and studio features most certainly do.
 
Let's settle the argument by releasing the Dragon!
 
Andrae Palmer said:
I share your thoughts when it comes to this. Looking now at my own thinking pattern... I see becoming more anti-red. Not because I don't like their products... I love the EPIC. I don't like their business practices and race to the bottom mentality. That's good for RED but it's not good for me. I plan on purchasing the ARRI 4k camera when it comes out just to protect my investment and stick with a higher "perceived" brand.
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This feels like an emotional reaction to me rather than a business reaction. You feel stung by what RED did and now you're looking to Arri as the counterpunch. The problem is, this landscape is changing so quickly that it's not even possible to predict where Arri might go with this. You assume that Arri is making a 4K camera, but who's to say they're not working on a 6K camera (I don't have any inside information). And who knows what the price will be? Will their business model stay the same or will they adjust?

Obviously if owning an Alexa puts you in a better business position, then you do what makes sense for you. I just wonder if this is a quick reaction to a decision you didn't agree with. Testament to that is when you say you're going to buy a camera that isn't available yet and has not been tested. The next Alexa may be the best camera ever invented but how can you commit to something you haven't even seen yet? I'm assuming it's because what you are actually saying is that RED has done you wrong and therefore you are moving your business to a company you believe won't do the same thing to you. Again, perhaps this ends up being the right business decision for you. The good news is you'll have some time to let this all settle in a bit before that choice is even relevant and who knows what time may do to that decision process.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
The good news is you'll have some time to let this all settle in a bit before that choice is even relevant and who knows what time may do to that decision process.
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I'm executing my restructuring right now actually. I'm scared to see what April is going to bring to our terrain. Expensive camera systems will be so 2012.

------

I've been wondering something since reading this blog post: http://wideopencamera.com/mns-1974/red-sony-and-canon-4k/

Will 4k monitoring be achieved on the EPIC by a new module with (4) HD-SDI ports?
 
Steve Sherrick said:
estament to that is when you say you're going to buy a camera that isn't available yet and has not been tested. The next Alexa may be the best camera ever invented but how can you commit to something you haven't even seen yet?
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I can't help but think how amusing it is that you would state that on RedUser.......:sarcasm:
 
Did Sony say when there we going to release their new 4k camera systems?
 
M Most said:
I can't help but think how amusing it is that you would state that on RedUser.......:sarcasm:
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LOL... true indeed.
 
M Most said:
I can't help but think how amusing it is that you would state that on RedUser.......:sarcasm:
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I know, I know... :iagree:

But in all seriousness, this is such an easy trap to fall into. I'm sure we've all done it. The next "big thing" will solve all of our problems. When in reality, if we take a step back and analyze our actual needs and what is necessary to accomplish the goals of our business or art we are able to make more informed decisions.
 
Feb 2013
 
It is Funny Down under.....
Sony AUS is asking Clients how much should F5 and F55 cost...
My answer: same price as F3 :-)
 
Jiri Vrozina said:
It is Funny Down under.....
Sony AUS is asking Clients how much should F5 and F55 cost...
My answer: same price as F3 :-)
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Answer; cost of production plus 20%, direct sale to customers, no middlemen.

Mike brennan
DP
Melbourne
 
oleg kaizerman said:
not even one camera sell 1 more ticket in the cinema or brings more rating , the audience doesn't care if it 1080 or 4 k or 5 k .
99 % of people who on that board will never shoot for something that is bigger then 60 inch set .
for me red did not change the world , they made it worse , they gave the opportunity for idiots to dump the industry with no money productions and tones of projects which have no distribution and eventually been sold for nothing ' every one could be a "foolmaker" for cinema , isnt it a sony slogan from the past ? :-)
spy kids 2 was shot on 900F and it still better picture then 100s which been shot on red
so who cares if it 4k or 2 k or 1080 , you care only for how comfortable your tool is , that's what arri understand
and something about sony , they came with best camecorder ever made for human shoulder in 88 bvw 200 , they came with detachable ccd sensor from camera in 91 BVP 70T AND THEY DO HAVE THE BEST CAMERA NOW F65-ITS A FACT
RED is a good product , just it not really suits 95% of the working class heroes way they make money , and you need to do something with your cooling system as well :-)
by they way i started at 86 with ikegami 79, 95 and bvp -30 and even then the sony was better and more reliable but every one was talking about how good the ikegami looks and lost money as the camera was going out of registration after 3 hours of work
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when did spy kids 2 become a benchmark for a "better picture"? Compared to "100s shot on red"? Ummm, I may not have as much experience as most on this forum, but that's just stupid.
 
It's good to see Sony is changing the direction.
No one wants to see Red become the only child on the block, you get spoiled.
It's also good Sony learns from Red, although when I look at the new F, perhaps bit too much.
Red has changed the industry and I sincerely hope that they can stay and battle the ground long after Jim is retired.
Cheers to Jim
 
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