Sony A7S III - Supreme Compact 4K

[Jiri Vrozina]

Here, using special new cards.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/07/28/sony-delivers-on-the-video-centric-alpha-7s-iii/

 

[Phil Holland]

BMD does it and does it well. No unnecessary teasing, no leaks, not a single peep about any of their cameras. Any rumors about their cameras you can count on being completely wrong. Only a handful of people have inside info outside of BMD itself.

Companies need to choose better beta testers, bloggers/vloggers are not those people.

Did they do it well?

*snickers*

There's nothing to gain by me spoiling upcoming camera releases from various manufacturers, not a single thing. In fact that does more damage than good. Companies got their tight circles and that's good. A trusted professional perspective is highly valuable to a manufacturer. Most just want feedback.

It's an interesting premise, I mean most cameras that people see at the end of the line have been in development somewhere between 5-1 years, occasionally something done quicker. Often there are various prototypes along the way, one offs, things a lot of people don't get to see that might end up in a future release or not. Don't mind talking recent leak history, but Sony avoided a debacle during the A7rIII release cycle as images were leaked from what became the A7rIV before the previous model was even released that somehow ended up being uploaded to Flickr of all places at full resolution with metadata in tact. This happened in the public's view for the few that caught onto it. That was silly and sort of the worse case scenario short of walking into a competitors office with unmarked prototype housed in a previous generation's camera body.

Trust probably is the most valuable asset honestly in this space. Applies to production work as well. For instance, I shot a project 1.5 years ago for an unreleased product that's soon to hit market. That's moderately the norm for me, but you go about your business, do the work, then chat about things once appropriate or allowed. There's stuff I've shot I can't talk about publicly either and that's personally the hardest stuff, but that's the client's discretion. Though a bummer not to include even on my site or anything. I just make pretty pictures for a living and go from there.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Watching guys like laforet and bloom ‘shill’ ?

At least Phil’s loyal to a brand. Newsshooter seems like a good neutral reviewer.

YouTube personalities, or YouTube cinematographers like bloom and laforet, you can’t trust a thing they say.

Phil uses a lot of cameras too, but you never see him saying the newest canon beats his REDs, because it’s new.$[/QUOT
Who says this beats this or that.? Like that quote about Ursa mini 12k...Not that long ago most of top feature movies have been shot on camera not even 4K.
WTF? They are all options for working cameramen making money every day. You might be shocked but 50% percent of my clients are PAYING me to shoot FHD

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Did they do it well?

*snickers*

.

Yes, they did. Not sure if that was a question or implying otherwise, so I answered the question, which I know for a fact is "yes, they did."

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Can we feed audio from the USB-C input?

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

It is all here, all you need to do is to read it.
https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/07/28/sony-delivers-on-the-video-centric-alpha-7s-iii/

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

https://www.newsshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Alpha-7S-III_SEL1635GM_XLRK3M.jpg

 

[Bruce Allen]

Did they do it well?

*snickers*

Huh? Any reason why you're being so mean without any substantiation, Phil?

Blackmagic did a great job. They got great footage out and ZERO leaks. And John Brawley and Kholi posting solidly here and on DVXuser answering questions.

This Sony and Canon releases seemed good to me too (although there were weird leaks in contrast to Blackmagic's). The camera's not for me (falls between the category of "camera my DP would rent" and "camera I want to own personally") but we can appreciate some hard work went into them and there is good clear info out there.

By contrast, KOMODO is really unclear - it's not even on RED.com's site. I understand that's their marketing strategy and you are a big part of it (without your posts on REDUSER I would be totally lost) but I currently personally have zero interest in the KOMODO until RED actually puts all the details up on their site and signals that it's out of beta. Again personal preference but to me of all of the manufacturers Blackmagic wins for least leaks and certainly if they can ship on time they get "most improved" (I remember the terrible wait for the 4.6k - I was on the list for so long and then gave up and bought an a7r2 instead!).

Otherwise - looking forward to 2021 and seeing how all of the other manufacturers respond! A7s3 missed the boat (no anamorphic modes or monitoring, no internal ND, no timecode, would have loved a little more resolution on sensor or some quad-Bayer cleverness) but interested in Sony's future cameras that have that improved EVF and menu system though (and they'll probably have the same or similar updated video architecture, the old was pretty ancient).

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Seems slightly 'too little, too late' to me. 12mp isn't good enough for professional stills

Are you kidding me, bro. Seriously. Those are quality photosites on that sensor. I could shoot almost any job with this camera. The only thing I wouldn't shoot with it would be architecture.

A7s3 missed the boat (no anamorphic modes or monitoring, no internal ND, no timecode, would have loved a little more resolution on sensor or some quad-Bayer cleverness)

How are they going to fit internal NDs in that body? But you are right about anamorphic mode - it's a noticeable omission. I slightly agree about resolution, because ideally it should have been 4.6K. It's still a more compelling choice than anything Canon makes, but that's in the VV category. The S1H is certainly no slouch, although its AF is CD only.

This camera can do things that Micro 4/3 can't, but it's also true that the Micro 4/3 cameras have their own advantages.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Are you kidding me, bro. Seriously. Those are quality photosites on that sensor. I could shoot almost any job with this camera. The only thing I wouldn't shoot with it would be architecture.

I'm no resolution snob but 12mp Bayer doesn't cut it for the stills I like to take. The resolution (especially considering it is Bayer and has gone through an OLPF) is too low. I mean maybe if you get lucky with Topaz Gigapixel but, uh sometimes I like to print stuff.

I direct promos - last one I did, I took a short lunch and helped the stills team with my little Fuji X-T3. Some elements may end up on a giant billboard. 26mp works, 12mp does not - again this is just for me!

Also sometimes I VFX supervise at the same time as directing so I may shoot some plates. 4K plates aren't good if your delivery is 4K. You want a little higher res... 6K is fine. Same thing shooting HDRs - 12mp is not enough.

How are they going to fit internal NDs in that body?

I would be OK with the body being a bigger since it's a video-only camera - the a7s3 is so small that the "bigger" version with internal ND would probably still be smaller than the S1H

Again to me making it 12mp means they're giving up on stills... so why not just do a little bigger body and add ND, etc? But others may think differently of course!

I actually think Komodo / Z-Cam / form factor would be nice for this. Imagine if that cool new high-res EVF that is sadly glued into the center of the camera for historical reasons (just following SLR convention) were detachable? Yes, I know I'm describing something that's basically a mini-FX9

But Fujifilm explored some interesting things - https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm...mage-gallery-current-concepts-future-reality/

But you are right about anamorphic mode - it's a noticeable omission. I slightly agree about resolution, because ideally it should have been 4.6K. It's still a more compelling choice than anything Canon makes, but that's in the VV category. The S1H is certainly no slouch, although its AF is CD only.

Yes I 100% agree the real winning proposition for this Sony a7s3 is something like shooting docs where that AF is incredibly useful. I'm just not shooting any of those right now.

Or maybe you're trying to shoot some Safdie Brothers madness and you don't have like a full Preston Light ranger... still think I'd rather be on a Canon C300 mk3 for autofocus but maybe a7s3 would be a good C-cam.

This camera can do things that Micro 4/3 can't, but it's also true that the Micro 4/3 cameras have their own advantages.

Ah, haven't used a Micro 4/3 camera in ages... why do you still use it? I'm interested!

BTW, what's your bet that inside this is a 48mp quad bayer hard-wired to 12mp mode? Would explain the latitude if some of the pixels were at different sensitivities similar to Alexa / Canon dual-gain.

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Note Suwanchote]

Huh? Any reason why you're being so mean without any substantiation, Phil?

Blackmagic did a great job. They got great footage out and ZERO leaks. And John Brawley and Kholi posting solidly here and on DVXuser answering questions.

Very much agreed.

It’ll be interesting to see how the Canon/Sony cameras plays out. July has certainly been exciting in terms of releases so far.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Huh? Any reason why you're being so mean without any substantiation, Phil?
Very much agreed.

It’ll be interesting to see how the Canon/Sony cameras plays out. July has certainly been exciting in terms of releases so far.

Thanks buddy! I agree.

Also two more thoughts...

1. Do either the a7s3 or R5 support LUTs? I just saw S-Log3 conversion / preview... it'd be crazy if in the year 2020 a $250 monitor from a company called FEELWORLD can support custom 3D LUTs but a $3500 camera from Sony can't!

2. Of course there is also the humor of the a7s3 having a flippy screen for video... but is that screen is super low res and seems to be 4:3 or 3:2?! And although you can see the 3:2 area of the sensor in stills mode, you can't record it, you're stuck with 16x9, it's kind of a joke

In my world, open gate Alexa LF is a blessing because often we sometimes need to do an Instagram 1x1 auxiliary version!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Bruce Allen]

Do any A7s support anamorphic? You can still shoot just not unsqueezed?

Unlike Panasonic, Sony has never supported either picture desqueeze nor any anamorphic aspect ratios in their DSLRs.

Of course that didn't stop some Reduser folks like Matt Uhry from shooting great stuff on an a7r2 in anamorphic mode with an external monitor!

But yeah you have to hack it. 5+ years ago that was fine! Now that Panasonic has already been doing it (on GH series and the S1H, a DSLR with a Sony sensor, no less!), I'd expect Sony to match that on their "video-oriented" $3500 12mp DSLR.

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Nick Vera]

The camera seems pretty great for the cost and updates. I preordered one just to have it be a backup and travel camera. Of course bigger jobs you would want to rent an Alexa, Venice, Red, 16mm, 35mm. But I think we got to give props for what Sony has accomplished in their tiny camera without a fan. Lot of powerful small options available to us at cost effective prices

 

[Nick Vera]

Unlike Panasonic, Sony has never supported either picture desqueeze nor any anamorphic aspect ratios in their DSLRs.

Of course that didn't stop some Reduser folks like Matt Uhry from shooting great stuff on an a7r2 in anamorphic mode with an external monitor!

But yeah you have to hack it. 5+ years ago that was fine! Now that Panasonic has already been doing it (on GH series and the S1H, a DSLR with a Sony sensor, no less!), I'd expect Sony to match that on their "video-oriented" $3500 12mp DSLR.

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

That would have been nice

 

[Dan Kanes]

“Full frame” sensors are great for anamorphic if you are willing to handle the frame guides and extraction process.

Full height anamorphic is ~18mm tall.

Full height “full frame” is ~ 24mm tall.

So, if you have a lens that covers 18mm vertically, you have more canvas with a bigger sensor.

Some lenses will cover up to 24mm tall, so if that same lens can cover 28.8 wide and 24mm tall you have a nice 2.40 oversized 2x anamorphic canvas to work with.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

not sure what you'll be able to do with a camera that uses debayer and only 4k... you'd be uprezzing to finish in 4k

I'm sure reality TV wouldn't care and I'm sure the autofocus and all the options dramatically appeal to a one-man-shooter

 

[David Rasberry]

not sure what you'll be able to do with a camera that uses debayer and only 4k... you'd be uprezzing to finish in 4k

This is an old misconception. The finished resolution of a 4k Bayer image that is processed to RGB is still 4K. If it is processed to 4:4:4 RGB color space fully sampled, it will still be a full pixel for pixel 4K image with every pixel a fully defined RGB color pixel. There may be very slight loss of red/blue channel spatial density which is perceived as a blur, but nowhere near the loss of 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 sub sampled video.
Sophisticated Bayer color filters all have some overlap in filter values such that a red pixel is not pure red but has some blue and green value. Green has blue and red values, and Blue has red and green values. Modern Debayer algorithms and advanced color science can accurately interpolate those value differences for full luminance resolution and nearly full color resolution.

The brilliance of the Bayer pattern is that it closely mimics the spatial color sensitivity of human vision. We don't perceive red and blue values with the same density as green either.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I dont Understand why you mix color sampling and resolution?
IMHO it’s not old phylosophy or tech to count 80% of resolution of the pixel count of a debayer sensor.
But Graeme would probably update us on that topic.

 

[Bruce Allen]

This is an old misconception. The finished resolution of a 4k Bayer image that is processed to RGB is still 4K. If it is processed to 4:4:4 RGB color space fully sampled, it will still be a full pixel for pixel 4K image with every pixel a fully defined RGB color pixel. There may be very slight loss of red/blue channel spatial density which is perceived as a blur, but nowhere near the loss of 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 sub sampled video.
Sophisticated Bayer color filters all have some overlap in filter values such that a red pixel is not pure red but has some blue and green value. Green has blue and red values, and Blue has red and green values. Modern Debayer algorithms and advanced color science can accurately interpolate those value differences for full luminance resolution and nearly full color resolution.

The brilliance of the Bayer pattern is that it closely mimics the spatial color sensitivity of human vision. We don't perceive red and blue values with the same density as green either.

Bayer pattern is brilliant but not THAT brilliant. You can debate overlapping filter values but let's be clear - you're only capturing one value per pixel. It's not as bad as 3:1:1 but it's not exactly 4:4:4 either. And if you have too much of an overlap in filter values, you get into some very wonky color issues because you're subtracting colors from each other to get "pure" values.

The other thing you're overlooking is that the OLPF has to be tuned to not produce horrid color moire... so the OLPF for a 4K Bayer sensor movie-optimized camera will be pretty soft.

If you compare a7 mark 3 (6K bayer downsampled to 4K) vs a7s2 (4K bayer to 4K) for video mode... a7 mark 3 has more real detail, a7s2 is a bit either soft or oversharpened.

Scroll down, - the tests are pretty clear:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7-iii-review/10

Another good way of comparing is take a look at the Sony a7r3 which has two modes:

- normal Bayer mode
- and pixel shift mode where it shifts so you're sampling a color every pixel so it doesn't have to debayer.

Really seriously big real-world difference:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/5645755619/sony-a7r-iii-pixel-shift-lifts-a-veil-off-your-landscapes
https://petapixel.com/2017/11/18/testing-sonys-new-pixel-shift-feature-a7r-iii/

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv