Should RED be using an Adobe CC Upgrade Model?

[Phil Holland]

not to derail my own thread but . . . why have the Scarlet owners upgrade Pre-NAB if Weapon is targeted at the $100K top tier market?

Heh. You're driving this crazy machine

I can think of two (maybe three) important reasons.

1. If those who are on Scarlet Dragon pre-NAB can make it up to Weapon they get a notable discount and AKS Credit.

2. For anybody moving up and onward through the upgrade paths you will need to have a camera body with the Dragon sensor in it.

3. This is a slight one, though very relevant. If you a Scarlet Dragon owner you could still upgrade to Epic Dragon and get those additional features.


The good news for Weapon upgraders, especially for Epic and Scarlet owners is while the price of the new body gets up there pretty quickly, you can upgrade for far less than the cost of the new body. That's important and is kind of the whole upgrade thing.

Just working on the "package" costs you are looking at an Retail Price of $71,770 for a new Weapon Dragon 6K CF Package. Priced below ARRI, above Panasonic, and technically in between Sony models. However Weapon is wielding a 6K sensor in a very powerful compact camera and can have an 8K VistaVision sensor in there. Based on the tech inside I can use my imagination and think of at least 5 things that might be possible that would make Weapon even better, which is good. The new MG total will be below that when that time comes and making that even more competitive for those who need some of the juice and not all of the juice of what Weapon has to offer.

I don't want to say this because I can't really justify the words until we shoot with Weapon, but Weapon just might be "the" production camera. At least in the markets I typically work. We have a very good sensor in there with good color, resolution, and dynamic range. There's advancements that can be made on the sensor and body front that we don't have obviously (yes I want higher FPS too), but I believe in many ways Weapon is paving the way for the future. And I do think this will effect the entry level camera body tier as well.

 

[Zeb B]

Heh. You're driving this crazy machine

I can think of two (maybe three) important reasons.

1. If those who are on Scarlet Dragon pre-NAB can make it up to Weapon they get a notable discount and AKS Credit.

2. For anybody moving up and onward through the upgrade paths you will need to have a camera body with the Dragon sensor in it.

3. This is a slight one, though very relevant. If you a Scarlet Dragon owner you could still upgrade to Epic Dragon and get those additional features.


The good news for Weapon upgraders, especially for Epic and Scarlet owners is while the price of the new body gets up there pretty quickly, you can upgrade for far less than the cost of the new body. That's important and is kind of the whole upgrade thing.

Just working on the "package" costs you are looking at an Retail Price of $71,770 for a new Weapon Dragon 6K CF Package. Priced below ARRI, above Panasonic, and technically in between Sony models. However Weapon is wielding a 6K sensor in a very powerful compact camera and can have an 8K VistaVision sensor in there. Based on the tech inside I can use my imagination and think of at least 5 things that might be possible that would make Weapon even better, which is good. The new MG total will be below that when that time comes and making that even more competitive for those who need some of the juice and not all of the juice of what Weapon has to offer.

I don't want to say this because I can't really justify the words until we shoot with Weapon, but Weapon just might be "the" production camera. At least in the markets I typically work. We have a very good sensor in there with good color, resolution, and dynamic range. There's advancements that can be made on the sensor and body front that we don't have obviously (yes I want higher FPS too), but I believe in many ways Weapon is paving the way for the future. And I do think this will effect the entry level camera body tier as well.

Sounds awesome! A rising tide lifts all RED boats ;-)

 

[Jarred Land]

I hope that RED is NOT happy with how things are going and will decide to make some moves.

We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone.. which is why we have our other camera lines that fit different customers... And we make it incredibly beneficial for our customers to move to if they are ready. Yes it is expensive... because it is the most expensive camera to make that we have ever made. Yes some of your old accessories wont work, which is why there is an upgrade package that GIVEs you everything you need. Not going to defend that anymore.

Remember there were calls to war and flaming pitchforks and cannonballs pointed at our doors from some Epic owners back when we announced Scarlet as well.. That it was too good and was going to lower the value of Epic etc. etc. etc. Scarlet and Epic ended up living just fine together and we couldn't be more proud of both of them.

Our customers (and perspective) customers give us a ton of feedback along the way. There have been alot of people that have asked us to make something that does more than for something that does less which is why Weapon was born.

And yes, some people felt left out and hurt because it was out of reach. I already posted that we haven't abandoned our other markets. The biggest shit storm we took a few years ago was being late late late ( we deserved that shitstorm btw ) , and our customers requested that we don't tell them things so far in advance.. which really sunk in with us. We haven't forgotten about any of our customers. The Scarlet owners.. your time will come. You need to remember that you don't know our roadmap.....

And for those that think Weapon was a " surprise " .... apart from new products usually always being a surprise, I slipped out teasers for months.. We made it easy for customers to get to Dragon not just for Weapon, but for the future.

We have always had a tick-tock cycle of our cameras. Body/Sensor/Body/Sensor/Body/Sensor. The Epic/Scarlet body was due for an update. Remember, we designed Epic in 2008 and started shipping it in 2010 which is like a lifetime in this camera world. We had to update the body to accommodate technologies that didn't exist when Epic was conceived. The body has had one hell of a run if you compare it to the market. This year every pretty much every other company has had a form factor change.

So no, I am not going to apologize for Weapon. It is incredible. It was the right move for RED, and filled a nice little hole on the top of the mountain. It allows us to be more successful across the line which in turn is better for everyone.

And Zeb.. back on track, I do adore you thinking outside the box with this idea, but its not something that really fits with us. What you are proposing I think is why there are rental houses... they kind of offer the same solution.

 

[Zeb B]

Yeah but . . . Rental Houses don't offer Technetium Level exclusive RED swag ;-)

 

[Jarred Land]

Yeah but . . . Rental Houses don't offer Technetium Level exclusive RED swag ;-)

heh heh heh

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

We haven't forgotten about any of our customers. The Scarlet owners.. your time will come. .

Don't forget Epic owners too! There are customers between $50k Carbon Fiber Epics and $14k Scarlet customers.

 

[Jarred Land]

Don't forget Epic owners too! There are customers between $50k Carbon Fiber Epics and $14k Scarlet customers.

mmmm.. what is exactly between those 2? 50+14/2 = $32k. Fits MG Weapon.. Too much? Epic-X Dragon= $24k. There are nice steps in the entire range. Its actually a pretty great lineup with an option for everyone.

And every single camera in that lineup is capable of taking some of the best images on the planet.. ( and thanks to NASA, off the planet )

which really is what should matter the most.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

not to derail my own thread but . . . why have the Scarlet owners upgrade Pre-NAB if Weapon is targeted at the $100K top tier market?

I think it was important for RED to close the upgrade line to dragon faster, so it made sense to do it this way. Offering the discount after NAB would have created less confusion for Scarlet owners, but potential scarlet-weapon upgraders would have been left out of the pre-NAB weapon discount. And I'm sure there are a few scarlet-to-weapon guys around so it was the best move for everyone as I see it.

One thing that would have been good for Scarlet owners is to have some sort of clearer information regarding that there might not be anything for them to further upgrade to this year at NAB because of price point. I was expecting it pretty much how it turned out, but even I had my hopes up a little bit for maybe an unknown weapon-scarlet being announced because of that pre NAB upgrade offer. I guess - and I know of some - that a lot of people had truly unrealistic expectations and thus the frustration.
Jarred made it clear that Weapon will be the leader of the pack, but maybe not clear enough as it seems - price point wise. something along the lines of: "Weapon will take top place - in abilities and price point" might have helped.

And this is not meant as criticism or complaining - just as constructive input.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

mmmm.. what is exactly between those 2? 50+14/2 = $32k. Fits MG Weapon.. Too much? Epic-X Dragon= $24k. There are nice steps in the entire range. Its actually a pretty great lineup with an option for everyone.

And every single camera in that lineup is capable of taking some of the best images on the planet.. ( and thanks to NASA, off the planet )

which really is what should matter the most.

Hehehe. good point!

That's exactly what I'm trying to tell everyone I meet who's unhappy the way it turned out at NAB for them. What I never will be able to understand is how people can abandon a perfectly working system just because they are impatient and one year it seems there's no goody in there for them. (I'm looking at you FCP switchers )

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred made it clear that Weapon will be the leader of the pack, but maybe not clear enough as it seems - price point wise. something along the lines of: "Weapon will take top place - in abilities and price point" might have helped.

And this is not meant as criticism or complaining - just as constructive input.

I would of said that if it was actually true... but it is not. Both Weapons Carbon and MG are actually lower in price than the top priced $50k Carbon Epic Dragon.

It is not till you add the 8K sensor to Weapon that the price goes up, but that's not really fair because that is another step.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I would of said that if it was actually true... but it is not. Both Weapons Carbon and MG are actually lower priced than the top priced $50k Carbon Epic Dragon.

It is not till you add the 8K sensor to Weapon that the price goes up, but that's not really fair because that is another step.

True! You got me there

So I guess there was no easy way to do it. But the point I tried to make about price expectations is still valid I would say, even though the example sentence is no good and not valid. But I can see how it's hard to do a good pre-announce for it.

Ah fuck it. I love weapon how it turned out - even though I can't afford it atm.

This is a thing better discussed over a big pot of Nutella.

 

[Zeb B]

When do you suppose you can release Weapon CF RC/FR specs?

More on topic . . . for us mentally challenged . . . perhaps having a graphic artist make up a Infographic for the complete RED line - both existing and proposed with all the accessories. Like a flow chart with the Brain in the middle. Also, product comparison would be helpful as well

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-.../IMRAoiSgX1Q/s1600/ipad2-xoom-infographic.jpg

 

[Patrick Grossien]

When do you suppose you can release Weapon CF RC/FR specs?

More on topic . . . for us mentally challenged . . . perhaps having a graphic artist make up a Infographic for the complete RED line - both existing and proposed with all the accessories. Like a flow chart with the Brain in the middle. Also, product comparison would be helpful as well

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-.../IMRAoiSgX1Q/s1600/ipad2-xoom-infographic.jpg

Yes!
Jarred, you know I'm always available for RED

 

[David Battistella]

I think I stated somewhere along the way that this upgrade meant "something for everybody". And that is what it is turning out to be. There is something (existing or new) for every tier of customer RED has. Obviously, they cannot operation the assumption that every customer will reach for 8k weapon, which specs wise and data handling wise will be more of a feature film machine.

Having an Epic Dragon or any of the existing red cameras in your hands at this moment is a gift. Even the red one is producing (now) industry standard 4k images.

So this new way forward has been well thought out and very fairly done. There will be people who do not upgrade tomorrow, but they have not been shut out, nor is their camera redundant. The camera package I have today (as an independant filmmaker) is as valuable as it was yesterday because the images it creates has not changed, nor has my ability to squeeze all I can out of it.

Something for for everybody means everybody has options and even if they are staying put, it's an awesome option.

Generally people might feel left behind, but I doubt anyone who picks up their camera with any kind of confidence is worried about being left in the lurch. Plenty, many amazing things are being churned out on 5k epic and scarlet mx even today.

RED has created a vibrant and versatile ecosystem, they haven't boned anyone, they are moving forward as we expect any tech company to do.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

David, well said.

 

[Scott Crawley]

LOL. If you're just getting around to figuring out that folk with lots of money have better access to all things cool in this world and life isn't fair to the working class . . . I'll commend you on getting through your sophomore year in college ;-)

haha no, I was just stating the obvious.

Seriously Scottyboy, if you're going to make anything personal . . . know something about the person you're targeting. You know nothing about me but, I'll be glad to have you buy me a drink or two to fill you in. I'm very charming in person. Just ask me.

I was not targeting you for a personal attack, if that is what you are suggesting. You will remember that I gave you the benefit of any doubt when others suggested that you were up to mischief. I was taking your remarks at face value and you do seem to be having some fun here. There is no problem with that so far as I'm concerned. A beer sounds good, always!

Yup, I said it. The Dragon, as is, takes some work to get a great image and there are many things you can do wrong. Not an issue if you have a production crew and live on RU. As a single shooter it's sometimes hard for me to find a place for it where other easier to pack tools can match it in delivered format. Add to that the Weapon is getting rid of the Side Handle so, ergonomically, you have a tripod mounted camera that is perfectly suited for big budget feature films - not a replacement for let's say a 1Dc or A7s or GH4 or C300II or . . .

My hope for Weapon and beyond is to not have it become a Feature Centric camera that needs a F1 crew to run and maintain.

Now back to the OP

Cheers!

I'm sure you know that great image requires some work regardless of the camera, but some gear requires more than others. A 1Dc is a good example of that; more work than others.

Weapon is meant for the F1 circuit. It is not a GH4. Jarred said as much when he said they were focusing on the high end with this thing. Will it get easier? Perhaps.

 

[Scott Crawley]

i get what he means, like some things vs the arri are a work around... in the sense that its more complex and you have to choose between potential for orbs vs potential for more grain... sure you can set 4 blackshades, but my arri does it on auto and my phantom does it in 2 seconds not 8 minutes.... to not acknowledge these "work arounds" is to not really be factual. i didn't buy a rocket x for any of my other cameras (though maybe phantom and arri raw should develop something like that). camera systems differ in many respects, arris are a heavy pain in the ass (until the mini came out)... my phantom takes 5 mins to dump a shot from ram to card, aint nobody got time for that! these things are just the way the systems are, and its quirks and you deal with them and plan and work around them as you may. i like my red, don't get me wrong, but i don't blindly not realize its downfalls too in some regards, its why i have 4 cameras, and hopefully soon a fifth (as the saying goes the right tool for the job, and sometimes he's right its an A7S or a arri, or a phantom)...my amira is great and all but i still want a mini (for 4/3 and raw) and eventually a 6k SXT (for next gen sensor)..

tools are tools, some have great res, some have great skin tones, some have both, raw, what have you...reds are great and so are the rest, just slight differences though and thats what i get about it, these work arounds extend to all cameras. i want to buy the new cooke anamorphic zooms but on amira i gotta crop that sensor, friggin work arounds everywhere man..

Yes I see, but I never considered these things "work arounds" for some grave deficiency. It is just the way things are. As you say, tools are tools. I think my old MX is quite a good one, relatively and empirically.

well the main issue is its viewed as an upgrade when its only a higher ended line

yes!

Sorry to be just catching up folks. East coast

 

[Elsie N]

I would of said that if it was actually true... but it is not. Both Weapons Carbon and MG are actually lower in price than the top priced $50k Carbon Epic Dragon.

It is not till you add the 8K sensor to Weapon that the price goes up, but that's not really fair because that is another step.

That's the step that has been the Mastodon among the elephants... for me at least. Not sure if it was you who said it or someone at RED with the authority to do so, but it has been suggested there will be a new (Mammoth?) sensor available for Scarlet/Epic Dragon owners for the next cycle.

With the 8k Mastodon sensor going to $20,000 or beyond after this tiny window to get it at a reasonable price, just how much will a new supposedly better generation of Mammoth sensors cost?

I'm not trying to be a RED upgrade salesman here, but it just seems to me the pricing is screaming "we can't come out and say this, but this is your last chance to go big "affordably!"

 

[Antony Newman]

The sensor after the Dragon : I don't expect that in the 2016 NAB ... Or the VV will have only just come out!

If announced in the 2017 NAB - then Aug 2017 is my guess at the earliest that the next Senor could be delivered.

With sensor prices creeping northwards ... I am hoping my next Red upgrade won't be a trade in

AJ

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone.. which is why we have our other camera lines that fit different customers... And we make it incredibly beneficial for our customers to move to if they are ready. Yes it is expensive... because it is the most expensive camera to make that we have ever made. Yes some of your old accessories wont work, which is why there is an upgrade package that GIVEs you everything you need. Not going to defend that anymore.

Remember there were calls to war and flaming pitchforks and cannonballs pointed at our doors from some Epic owners back when we announced Scarlet as well.. That it was too good and was going to lower the value of Epic etc. etc. etc. Scarlet and Epic ended up living just fine together and we couldn't be more proud of both of them.

Our customers (and perspective) customers give us a ton of feedback along the way. There have been alot of people that have asked us to make something that does more than for something that does less which is why Weapon was born.

And yes, some people felt left out and hurt because it was out of reach. I already posted that we haven't abandoned our other markets. The biggest shit storm we took a few years ago was being late late late ( we deserved that shitstorm btw ) , and our customers requested that we don't tell them things so far in advance.. which really sunk in with us. We haven't forgotten about any of our customers. The Scarlet owners.. your time will come. You need to remember that you don't know our roadmap.....

And for those that think Weapon was a " surprise " .... apart from new products usually always being a surprise, I slipped out teasers for months.. We made it easy for customers to get to Dragon not just for Weapon, but for the future.

We have always had a tick-tock cycle of our cameras. Body/Sensor/Body/Sensor/Body/Sensor. The Epic/Scarlet body was due for an update. Remember, we designed Epic in 2008 and started shipping it in 2010 which is like a lifetime in this camera world. We had to update the body to accommodate technologies that didn't exist when Epic was conceived. The body has had one hell of a run if you compare it to the market. This year every pretty much every other company has had a form factor change.

So no, I am not going to apologize for Weapon. It is incredible. It was the right move for RED, and filled a nice little hole on the top of the mountain. It allows us to be more successful across the line which in turn is better for everyone.

And Zeb.. back on track, I do adore you thinking outside the box with this idea, but its not something that really fits with us. What you are proposing I think is why there are rental houses... they kind of offer the same solution.

No apology needed or expected. I think everyone agrees Weapon is great, which is why everyone wants it, or wants the parts of it that are most beneficial to everyone's individual needs and workflows. If Weapon could have had just one more option, it'd have bridged this gap between the two legitimate and valid viewpoints...

A Weapon CF 6K that has an attractive upgrade price TO the 8K sensor -- top of the top.
A Weapon MG 6K that is what you offer today to step up from EPIC/SCARLET which has everything including prores etc.
A Weapon MG 6K Base that is more attractively priced and has all the pain points of EPIC/SCARLET addressed (and maybe this one was just too hard to differentiate from the one above, and made little sense, who knows)

Hopefully, in time, some of that will trickle down or we can all float up to Weapon. I'm certainly shooting for the latter, but the former will be a beneficial move for redusers and a nice, evolutionary move for RED.

Sorry for the sidetrack, Zeb. Back to subscription models! I think those are hard to do where hardware is involved. The costs are too variable unlike software-only products.