Should RED be using an Adobe CC Upgrade Model?

[Scott Crawley]

Being a happy R1 user you don't have to concern yourself with upgrades or the arms race of having the newest gear. Rental houses and cutting edge DP's need to have the current issue with real-time service / support for their work. Different needs - different market segment.

Those elites just pick up a phone and have the kit. Others who don't have the bat-phone number ordered the elite Machined versions etc.. So you see there is already a means for folks with juice to have the latest. They don't need to pay into a ball-suck society to get the stuff. They order, they buy.

 

[M.Halsell]

The Premium models works for customers that need/require top tier service. But I would suggest the system would work better with annual lump sum to separate the chaff from the wheat. $1250-$1500/mo would be tempting to many who think they can afford it but actually cant. Supposing RED takes on extra head count to cover the action, only to have a high default rate. The profitability margin works if everyone paid on time, every time. Suppose a percentage stays current on payment only to take the upgrade and cut out? What if customers drops off the program, but wants to re-enroll at a later date, where does the upgrade start/stop? Logistically, doesn't seem to be in RED's best financial interest.

 

[M.Halsell]

Those elites just pick up a phone and have the kit. Others who don't have the bat-phone number ordered the elite Machined versions etc.. So you see there is already a means for folks with juice to have the latest. They don't need to pay into a ball-suck society to get the stuff. They order, they buy.

Is that the Cash Is King model?

 

[Scott Crawley]

Is that the Cash Is King model?

lol I guess so.

What if Red simply set aside a number of cams and sold them by auction before the official release? Then the market could decide how much extra it will cost you to prove your fealty Mr. Zeb.

 

[Brian Merlen]

To throw my 2 cents in, I really don't think damn near anyone was expecting the Weapon upgrade. Nor this kind of cost in order to have "the latest and greatest", mostly due to the very short duration between when most got their Dragon and this coming out. So my point is all of this subscription talk seems odd, cuz sensor development and Red releases are anything but clock work. Look at the cost to year of releases, its never the same year to year or model to model, some deals cost different cuz the R%D is different? or parts? hell if i know what really goes into the pricing.. but the point is I think making an average to lease the camera kind of sucks, cuz like do we even own it if we stop paying? This business model already exists, its at the local rental house where they rent Reds or whatever... I don't really want to rent a Red from Red unless the prices were cheaper than the rental houses, so that changes the whole business model essentially.... PS I hate Adobe, I like Resolve Lite or Apple...Maybe Red should give away the hardware for free and charge a shit ton for software lol? or a day fee to make the camera turn on? no matter how you charge in the end people pay but I'm somewhat used to the existing business model vs any of the half hearted suggestions I just made above, i don't know really...maybe I should just start renting instead lol? I'm trying to do this upgrade but clients are so damn inconsistent with checks on a regular basis I'm just feeling sort of jaded atm lol


ps if you finance with someone like Abel they can do a "technology refresh" or you can buy your way out of your lease after a year...there are a ton of ways to price your camera out, you can get it with zero money down even on no interest 18 month credit card promotions, which is my personal fav...so there is already a ton of ways to do this and to literally even do the exact same model as always latest and greatest via renting at a house or financing it but constantly doing technology refreshes, as to running the math to figure out whats the cheapest and best option for YOU as an owner, therein lies the hard part...

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

Zeb that is a great idea. However I've noticed RED release cycle is about every 2 years

 

[Brian Merlen]

really i had my early adopter dragon for 8 months? where is this two year stuff coming from? haha thats my point...

 

[Zeb B]

Then the market could decide how much extra it will cost you to prove your fealty Mr. Zeb.

You are making the big assumption that I want to be a VIP Vegas Whale with people admiring my fatass stack of cash and the rented model on my arm. Wrong guy. I just know that this is the first upgrade I, and many others, didn't do because the maths don't pencil out. I also know that I'm not satisfied with the current Dragon image and work-arounds so am finding myself exploring A7s and other alternatives instead of making my RED work. We need industry leading innovation and a no brainer financial decision . . . like those R1 Nazi killers had back in 2007 to win the war for us ;-)

 

[Scott Crawley]

You are making the big assumption that I want to be a VIP Vegas Whale with people admiring my fatass stack of cash and the rented model on my arm. Wrong guy. I just know that this is the first upgrade I, and many others, didn't do because the maths don't pencil out. I also know that I'm not satisfied with the current Dragon image and work-arounds so am finding myself exploring A7s and other alternatives instead of making my RED work. We need industry leading innovation and a no brainer financial decision . . . like those R1 Nazi killers had back in 2007 to win the war for us ;-)

Am I?

You were stating that some volume of payments would be a way for folks to 'prove their worth' and jump the queue.

Now, you didn't suggest how much that would cost, but a reasonable person knows that both credit and privilege costs money so the payments would have to include some kind if premium, no? You weren't expecting Red to finance you for nothing, right? So I deduced that you were interested to buy your way in. Is that the assumption of which you speak? It seems like a logical conclusion to me.

It is interesting to me that you mention a rented model on the arm. I guess you weren't referring to your rented camera then eh?

So you aren't shooting your big film because Dragon isn't good enough for you? Work arounds... What?

I'm beginning to think that Terry was on to something. :reddevil:

 

[Brian Merlen]

i get what he means, like some things vs the arri are a work around... in the sense that its more complex and you have to choose between potential for orbs vs potential for more grain... sure you can set 4 blackshades, but my arri does it on auto and my phantom does it in 2 seconds not 8 minutes.... to not acknowledge these "work arounds" is to not really be factual. i didn't buy a rocket x for any of my other cameras (though maybe phantom and arri raw should develop something like that). camera systems differ in many respects, arris are a heavy pain in the ass (until the mini came out)... my phantom takes 5 mins to dump a shot from ram to card, aint nobody got time for that! these things are just the way the systems are, and its quirks and you deal with them and plan and work around them as you may. i like my red, don't get me wrong, but i don't blindly not realize its downfalls too in some regards, its why i have 4 cameras, and hopefully soon a fifth (as the saying goes the right tool for the job, and sometimes he's right its an A7S or a arri, or a phantom)...my amira is great and all but i still want a mini (for 4/3 and raw) and eventually a 6k SXT (for next gen sensor)..

tools are tools, some have great res, some have great skin tones, some have both, raw, what have you...reds are great and so are the rest, just slight differences though and thats what i get about it, these work arounds extend to all cameras. i want to buy the new cooke anamorphic zooms but on amira i gotta crop that sensor, friggin work arounds everywhere man..

 

[Zeb B]

Am I?

You were stating that some volume of payments would be a way for folks to 'prove their worth' and jump the queue.

Now, you didn't suggest how much that would cost, but a reasonable person knows that both credit and privilege costs money so the payments would have to include some kind if premium, no? You weren't expecting Red to finance you for nothing, right? So I deduced that you were interested to buy your way in. Is that the assumption of which you speak? It seems like a logical conclusion to me.

It is interesting to me that you mention a rented model on the arm. I guess you weren't referring to your rented camera then eh?

So you aren't shooting your big film because Dragon isn't good enough for you? Work arounds... What?

I'm beginning to think that Terry was on to something. :reddevil:

LOL. If you're just getting around to figuring out that folk with lots of money have better access to all things cool in this world and life isn't fair to the working class . . . I'll commend you on getting through your sophomore year in college ;-)

Seriously Scottyboy, if you're going to make anything personal . . . know something about the person you're targeting. You know nothing about me but, I'll be glad to have you buy me a drink or two to fill you in. I'm very charming in person. Just ask me.

Yup, I said it. The Dragon, as is, takes some work to get a great image and there are many things you can do wrong. Not an issue if you have a production crew and live on RU. As a single shooter it's sometimes hard for me to find a place for it where other easier to pack tools can match it in delivered format. Add to that the Weapon is getting rid of the Side Handle so, ergonomically, you have a tripod mounted camera that is perfectly suited for big budget feature films - not a replacement for let's say a 1Dc or A7s or GH4 or C300II or . . .

My hope for Weapon and beyond is to not have it become a Feature Centric camera that needs a F1 crew to run and maintain.

Now back to the OP

Cheers!

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Since RED almost always needs some time to work out the technology kinks, they should only LEASE their new camera for a period of one year at ridiculously high prices. Only those who really need the tech and have the wherewithal to deal with issues, will go this route.

That year done, RED can offer upgrades and sales with all the major issues fixed, while the next iteration of the premium product lease cycle begins.

All these ideas though, may not make much sense if we knew RED's cash flow situation and needs. One thing is for sure. If RED would LIKE to have the upgrade cycle be well-received, they'd need to approach it differently and price it more attractively than this cycle ended up being.

The kicker here unfortunately was that since so many thought it was only going to be a body upgrade, everyone assumed the best in terms of pricing. Even the hints dropped of the premium nature of the upgrade didn't rule out the idea that there'd be a lower level entry point given the incentivizing for everyone to upgrade to DRAGON pre-NAB.

 

[Brian Merlen]

well the main issue is its viewed as an upgrade when its only a higher ended line

 

[Elsie N]

LOL. If you're just getting around to figuring out that folk with lots of money have better access to all things cool in this world and life isn't fair to the working class . . . I'll commend you on getting through your sophomore year in college ;-)

Seriously Scottyboy, if you're going to make anything personal . . . know something about the person you're targeting. You know nothing about me but, I'll be glad to have you buy me a drink or two to fill you in. I'm very charming in person. Just ask me.

Yup, I said it. The Dragon, as is, takes some work to get a great image and there are many things you can do wrong. Not an issue if you have a production crew and live on RU. As a single shooter it's sometimes hard for me to find a place for it where other easier to pack tools can match it in delivered format. Add to that the Weapon is getting rid of the Side Handle so, ergonomically, you have a tripod mounted camera that is perfectly suited for big budget feature films - not a replacement for let's say a 1Dc or A7s or GH4 or C300II or . . .

My hope for Weapon and beyond is to not have it become a Feature Centric camera that needs a F1 crew to run and maintain.

Now back to the OP

Cheers!

Personally, I have no problem with those who can to pay for access, as long as I am granted access (to hardware) at a later date at a value price. I've applauded the Epic M and the Carbon Fiber Dragon as programs that help RED's bottom line and likely cheapens the "generic" cameras later on. This update is different because the value is in the high end product and that forces me to go high-end to milk the value.

I have no objection if RED starts a subscription/lease/Gold club/whatever as long as it is optional and doesn't require me to join. But I think the risk for RED is that they may get some large-funds customers while losing a lot of value-seeking customers... if the wait is too long between launch and availability for value-seeking customers.

RED has changed a lot over the years since inception. I've adapted to those changes and I'm sure I'll adapt to the future ones, in whatever way I'm able to.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Call me crazy, but i hate the idea of another monthly subscription.

I like the buy as you go and the ability to have options.

I'm not satisfied with the current Dragon image and work-arounds

Whats your Dragon image issue that is handled better with the A7s?

Outside of what some think of as a deficiency in the toe (I tend to think MX was geared toward too much toe),
the only issue I've seen is wavelet compression artifacts at high ratios and mostly in the low end. (I don't consider that sensor noise for the obvious reasons)

In those cases, when shooting at 13:1 or higher, neat video takes care of it.
Frankly, I'm not aware of any high-speed solution that looks equally as clean at normal speed - so I don't consider it a problem.

I'm aware of gate shadow and cmos blur, but those issues are present in every camera where applicable.

Not trying to sound snarky at all. If there's another issue, I'd like to know about it.

 

[Zeb B]

The challenge for any manufacturer of tech products is to provide regular upgrades that move the performance needle and are not just window dressing. Adobe CC has done that IMHO. Paying $600/yr for AfterEffects - a tool that allows you to bill in the 3 digit/hr range - is a deal. If you're good with AE, you can pay your annual bill with one day of work. Give me a break with the bitching about CC.

My hope for Weapon was for them to move the RC / Frame Rate needle since, for me, high rez slomo is where the Dragon has a distinct niche. Come to find out that the upgrade was in body style and data bandwidth only. The RC and FR didn't change so if I was paying on a subscription plan for the last year I would have a big issue with value now. As it is I can simply choose to not upgrade.

No easy answers / solutions but where we are now doesn't seem to be kickin it either

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

well the main issue is its viewed as an upgrade when its only a higher ended line

RED can't have it both ways. Saying we should upgrade to DRAGON pre-NAB to keep the upgrade path alive, and then saying, well, the Weapon is a high-end line you don't need to upgrade to, just doesn't gel for me. If their thinking is, you'd be upgrading to a non-high-end line option at some point in the future, then that should have been made clear and the details announced at this NAB.

Specially when Weapon is really a camera that fixes everything that should have been fixed with the EPIC DRAGON upgrade from EPIC MX. Yes, even prores sadly is NOT that big a deal given other cameras have had it for a long while now. Far as I'm concerned, I don't see the Weapon as the 'high end' camera -- yes, the 8K CF certainly, but not the MG 6K Weapon.

EDIT: Here's another idea for RED. Raise the new weapon price by 5K and drop the upgrade price by 5K and run the projections and numbers.

 

[Phil Holland]

RED can't have it both ways. Saying we should upgrade to DRAGON pre-NAB to keep the upgrade path alive, and then saying, well, the Weapon is a high-end line you don't need to upgrade to, just doesn't gel for me. If their thinking is, you'd be upgrading to a non-high-end line option at some point in the future, then that should have been made clear and the details announced at this NAB.

Specially when Weapon is really a camera that fixes everything that should have been fixed with the EPIC DRAGON upgrade from EPIC MX. Yes, even prores sadly is NOT that big a deal given other cameras have had it for a long while now. Far as I'm concerned, I don't see the Weapon as the 'high end' camera -- yes, the 8K CF certainly, but not the MG 6K Weapon.

EDIT: Here's another idea for RED. Raise the new weapon price by 5K and drop the upgrade price by 5K and run the projections and numbers.

There really wasn't a mixed message. RED stated before NAB that Dragon bodies would all be part of the future. During the week of NAB RED stated that Weapon was the top end camera model in the Dragon family while also at the same time posting a nice note here to remind that indie folks aren't being forgotten. More or less Weapon itself is simply not an entry level body.

When you say "fix" I say "added features". And the Dragon upgrade was a sensor upgrade. If it was a sensor upgrade and all of the additional hardware was added to allow for the new features that Weapon has it would have been a really hard upgrade for many. And also Scarlet Dragon likely would have never existed and perhaps Epic Dragon as well. RED is making three tiers of cameras now and that's all there really needs to be said. And your description of ProRes not being a "big deal" is exactly why it is one of the bigger deals actually. In the world of rentals, broadcast, and anywhere that utilizes ProRes for a variety of things it's a big time and money saver. There's a host of new hardware and features that we know about today with Weapon and likely more on the horizon as things get hammered into the floor. You missing the concept that Weapon at the moment might be the top tier production camera with it's given capabilities and in an extremely compact package. This is a market RED wants to penetrate further into and that's exactly what Weapon is about.

Weapon 8K Dragon is going to be the top, top tier camera for those who are ready to explore the world of 8K. Interestingly enough it will support a tried and tested workflow. Some of the other 8K options right now are bulking, difficult, and weird all together in terms of workflow. REDCODE RAW is supported in 3rd party applications, GPU accelerated, and RED ROCKET-X accelerated if you need that level of speed. This is compelling stuff. And it can do it at up to 60fps, which will be important for some.

 

[Zeb B]

There really wasn't a mixed message. RED stated before NAB that Dragon bodies would all be part of the future. During the week of NAB RED stated that Weapon was the top end camera model in the Dragon family while also at the same time posting a nice note here to remind that indie folks aren't being forgotten. More or less Weapon itself is simply not an entry level body.

When you say "fix" I say "added features". And the Dragon upgrade was a sensor upgrade. If it was a sensor upgrade and all of the additional hardware was added to allow for the new features that Weapon has it would have been a really hard upgrade for many. And also Scarlet Dragon likely would have never existed and perhaps Epic Dragon as well. RED is making three tiers of cameras now and that's all there really needs to be said. And your description of ProRes not being a "big deal" is exactly why it is one of the bigger deals actually. In the world of rentals, broadcast, and anywhere that utilizes ProRes for a variety of things it's a big time and money saver. There's a host of new hardware and features that we know about today with Weapon and likely more on the horizon as things get hammered into the floor. You missing the concept that Weapon at the moment might be the top tier production camera with it's given capabilities and in an extremely compact package. This is a market RED wants to penetrate further into and that's exactly what Weapon is about.

Weapon 8K Dragon is going to be the top, top tier camera for those who are ready to explore the world of 8K. Interestingly enough it will support a tried and tested workflow. Some of the other 8K options right now are bulking, difficult, and weird all together in terms of workflow. REDCODE RAW is supported in 3rd party applications, GPU accelerated, and RED ROCKET-X accelerated if you need that level of speed. This is compelling stuff. And it can do it at up to 60fps, which will be important for some.

not to derail my own thread but . . . why have the Scarlet owners upgrade Pre-NAB if Weapon is targeted at the $100K top tier market?

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Phil, I totally get it, I get that point of view. I'm not gonna argue with it as its a perfectly legitimate point of view and very, very valid. I'm just saying that the other point of view is not easily dismissable (if that's a word). And that's where the problem lies. Maybe hindsight is 20-20 and we are all having a ball talking about how or what should have been done, but I think overall, I hope that RED is NOT happy with how things are going and will decide to make some moves -- not in a rush -- but eventually, make some bold and good moves for all of us (including RED itself).

p.s. when i say prores is not a big deal, i meant that technically, from a black-box perspective, its not new territory. I get it that its a much-desired element for many.