Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Should RED be using an Adobe CC Upgrade Model?

For the adobe stuff it´s great. I hardly feel it, they suck money of my credit card and things just work... I´m not to sure if I would like to proceed with the same procedure for one of the most expansive camera solutions there is. Adobe stuff is for me at least just as needed as the OS on a computer, and I guess they need to charge somehow to keep things current... Having a dragon weapon 8k camera with magnesium mount is something different, I want to judge it and then buy it.
 
Zeb B said:
It's a serious proposition. What would you pay to have available the newest RED products that are eternally warrantied and with Platinum Club response to all your needs. Like Ryan Bingham in "Up in the Air" - express lines and Club only access to cool stuff.

Funny how folks have issues with the CC concept of making a making a fixed monthly expense to allow both them and RED to have a level cash flow . . . but many have no issue with sending in $10K for a camera that does not exist.

Just seems like it would make the Cost of Ownership better defined. Amortize the initial $50K over 3 years ($1300/month) then add the average annual $15K upgrade and warranty costs equals maybe $2000/month. Just trying to find a better way then what I call "The Pig in the Python" approach . . . eating one 200lb meal each month, then processing that lump, instead of 4 small meals per day.

Any better ideas out there on financing RED's R&D and creating predictable cash flow for the RU's?
Click to expand...

Zeb, at least when you are buying the $10,000 camera that does not exist, you are told what the camera will do when it does exist. With the subscription model you are buying whatever RED decides to offer. In essence... buying a pig in a poke. And just like with the Weapon, a lot of people may not be upgrading because they don't see the value, even though they can afford the upgrade.

And while the monetary commune approach may be attractive to some who hold AMEX Black, I think the Indie-pendant types that mostly comprise RED's customer base (I'm guessing) prefer to bitch and moan, then try to find their way to upgrades.

Pigs are really taking one in the Bellies in this thread. '-)
 
Last edited:
Scott Crawley said:
I understand that is what you mean, but why the surprise that some folks won't like it? You actually did expect that, I'm sure.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know how much SOME (lol) people loathe the Adobe model. So, I am not at all surprised. The irony, I think, is that this really is something of a solution and yet not palatable. What it tends to underscore is the possibility that the "real" complaint isn't planning or business management but, pure and simple, prices. Everyone want more for less but RED can't be expected to give things away; not even "upgrades." Hardware is not like software.

That's why I am thinking there was a little mischief in Zeb's proposal. :-)
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Yes, I know how much SOME (lol) people loathe the Adobe model. So, I am not at all surprised. The irony, I think, is that this really is something of a solution and yet not palatable. What it tends to underscore is the possibility that the "real" complaint isn't planning or business management but, pure and simple, prices. Everyone want more for less but RED can't be expected to give things away; not even "upgrades." Hardware is not like software.

That's why I am thinking there was a little mischief in Zeb's proposal. :-)
Click to expand...

If you think Adobe is giving anything away...

But again I state; What people are asking for is a lease so call it that. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

If I had to I might guess that this would be a way for him to get ahead in the queue. I don't assume Zeb is any more mischievous than that. :-)
 
Last edited:
Just to counterpoint Zeb's rather tongue in cheek/joke of a concept here.

You should BUY the camera.

Your clients should RENT the camera from you.

If you've unlocked the concept where something like this "works" for you, you are likely a renter and not cut out to be an owner/operator/rental entity :)
 
Nothing tongue 'n cheek here. It's finance, accounting, risk reduction and status based marketing.

You still Own the camera. It's just an alternate way of financing the variable upgrade / warranty costs. Sure you can put $15K on your Visa card for the NAB upgrade and pay 18% interest on that . . . but that is a payment in arrears for RED's R&D cash flow needs. Do we have faith that RED will consistently deliver world class products year after year? Of course we do!! Then provide them the resources to do so and forget about the NAB product cycle calendar - it's just a BS hype week. Some years ago Steve Jobs decided to disconnect his product cycles from Mac World reasoning that innovation happens on Apple's schedule . . . not a trade show date.

From a Marketing POV: How many of us would jump at the concept of being an Elite RED Ops Member with perks like monthly group Skype calls with Jarred and his Engineering Team. Or to have a badge icon for the forum that indicates Silver, Gold or Platinum level Membership. Having a dedicated Elite Bomb Squad hotline and express lane service for all your needs.

Heck, have a level up from that at $5K/M, the Technetium Level, that gets you real inside circle access / support / beta testing loaners / limited edition gear (the cool stuff that is in some photos but not mass produced) and a annual dinner with Jim & Jarred and fellow Technetium Club Members at NAB.

If you cancel out of the RED Subscription then you have a 90 day warranty and are free to sell your gear at whatever the current market rate is for fresh from factory, current issue cameras. Not seeing a downside here guys.

Just another way to combine the needs of the market with the needs of the RED while leveraging on the elephant in the room (that no one is honest enough to talk about) called status of RED ownership.

BTW - not sure why no one has ever used "Technetium" as a marketing hook. It's the most expensive stuff on the planet and has the word "Tech" in it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium
 
Zeb B said:
Nothing tongue 'n cheek here. It's finance, accounting, risk reduction and status based marketing.

You still Own the camera. It's just an alternate way of financing the variable upgrade / warranty costs. Sure you can put $15K on your Visa card for the NAB upgrade and pay 18% interest on that . . . but that is a payment in arrears for RED's R&D cash flow needs. Do we have faith that RED will consistently deliver world class products year after year? Of course we do!! Then provide them the resources to do so and forget about the NAB product cycle calendar - it's just a BS hype week. Some years ago Steve Jobs decided to disconnect his product cycles from Mac World reasoning that innovation happens on Apple's schedule . . . not a trade show date.

From a Marketing POV: How many of us would jump at the concept of being an Elite RED Ops Member with perks like monthly group Skype calls with Jarred and his Engineering Team. Or to have a badge icon for the forum that indicates Silver, Gold or Platinum level Membership. Having a dedicated Elite Bomb Squad hotline and express lane service for all your needs.

Heck have a level up from that at $5K/M, the Technetium Level, that gets you real inside circle access / support / beta testing loaners / limited edition gear (the cool stuff that is in some photos but not mass produced) and a annual dinner with Jim & Jarred and fellow Technetium Club Members at NAB.

If you cancel out of the RED Subscription then you have a 90 day warranty and are free to sell your gear at whatever the current market rate is for fresh from factory current issue cameras. Not seeing a downside here guys.

Just another way to combine the needs of the market with the needs of the RED while leveraging on the elephant in the room (that no one is honest enough to talk about) called status of RED ownership.

BTW - not sure why no one has ever used "Technetium" as a marketing hook. It's the most expensive stuff on the planet and has the word "Tech" in it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium
Click to expand...

The RED you are describing is not the RED I signed on with. And the RED you are describing is one I would not feel comfortable with, or welcome in, even if money were not the limiting factor.

Count me out.
 
If you truly have faith in RED to deliver the best technology going forward . . . then support them financially in that pursuit . . . and get a badge of honor showing your RU peers that you do so while getting power user service, support and access. If you have to wait to see if RED delivers the goods before making a buying decision, then this program is not for you.

Simple stuff really for the truly faithful.

Let's reward and honor those who fund RED R&D every month . . . not those who just Like or Upvote and make noise on this forum. Sycophants don't fund payroll or product development
 
Zeb B said:
If you truly have faith in RED to deliver the best technology going forward . . . then support them financially in that pursuit . . . and get a badge of honor showing your RU peers that you do so while getting power user service, support and access. If you have to wait to see if RED delivers the goods before making a buying decision, then this program is not for you.

Simple stuff really for the truly faithful.


Let's reward and honor those who fund RED R&D every month . . . not those who just Like or Upvote and make noise on this forum. Sycophants don't fund payroll or product development
Click to expand...

That is not an upgrade model.

That is a CULT.

Sycophants join cults.
 
Last edited:
I have certainly faith in RED, more than in any other company (except the one I'm part of -- of course ;o)


Zeb, I have seen you in action when someones home burned down. I take your ideas seriously. I assume only positive intentions.

To honor RED, make the best footage you can, publish it as much as you can. That is certainly a step closer...
To get into the inner circle, needs actions that gives you an invitation, which can’t be paid with money. My suggestion, start a foundation for a large film school for kids with no future otherwise, equip this with tons RED gear. I’m certain you're part of the inner circle, if that flies.


After selling Oakley to build RED, I don’t think we have enough money to make really a difference — other than to stay up-to-date and honor the work of the RED Team by owning and using their products.
 
Last edited:
Zeb B said:
If you truly have faith in RED to deliver the best technology going forward . . . then support them financially in that pursuit . . . and get a badge of honor showing your RU peers that you do so while getting power user service, support and access. If you have to wait to see if RED delivers the goods before making a buying decision, then this program is not for you.

Simple stuff really for the truly faithful.

Let's reward and honor those who fund RED R&D every month . . . not those who just Like or Upvote and make noise on this forum. Sycophants don't fund payroll or product development
Click to expand...

RED should be sufficiently solvent as to not be needing pre-funding. If they are not, let them go to the money-lenders like the rest of us do... (or let The Billionaire who owns all the stock write a check '-)
 
Last edited:
Have a mental block with the "CC" label? Years ago I owned a large ($100K), high volume color printer which had a Service Contract that provided for Upgrades and Service at a fixed monthly cost with a Variable cost based on usage. It happens with Hardware.
 
There is a hammer in my toolbox I got from my grandfather.
That thing is from the 70's, and it still works as a hammer. Best part of it, it does not cost me dime and does not need upgrades.
So even if I was flat broke, I can still hit a nail in the wall with it.

In my experience you need tools to make a dollar the most when you don't have a dollar
 
Zeb B said:
Have a mental block with the "CC" label? Years ago I owned a large ($100K), high volume color printer which had a Service Contract that provided for Upgrades and Service at a fixed monthly cost with a Variable cost based on usage. It happens with Hardware.
Click to expand...

I had a similar experience. I had a contract with a famous postage meter company that was very difficult to get out of. Cost me a lot of extra dollars until I could get out of that contract and own one from another company that was a one-time payment.
 
Elsie N said:
I had a similar experience. I had a contract with a famous postage meter company that was very difficult to get out of. Cost me a lot of extra dollars until I could get out of that contract and own one from another company that was a one-time payment.
Click to expand...


Sounds like the folks over at Pine Brook NJ :) I vote no for the Adobe Shackle model
 
wow, thats a really terrible idea

..im assuming that the camera hardware, and all future upgrades / trade-ins come bundled in that costing?

..i shall now record that into my list of bad ideas, i shall most likely embed it into an r3d stream as lens meta-data, in code form, by moving the lens on my red one whilst recording
 
egon touste said:
wow, thats a really terrible idea

..im assuming that the camera hardware, and all future upgrades / trade-ins come bundled in that costing?

..i shall now record that into my list of bad ideas, i shall most likely embed it into an r3d stream as lens meta-data, in code form, by moving the lens on my red one whilst recording
Click to expand...

Which part is the bad idea? Paying for upgrades or having 3+ classes of RED Users for upgrade priority? Both are in place currently in a hard to understand and very financially lumpy form.

Being a happy R1 user you don't have to concern yourself with upgrades or the arms race of having the newest gear. Rental houses and cutting edge DP's need to have the current issue with real-time service / support for their work. Different needs - different market segment.

Speaking of R1 users. This program finally puts behind us those who put down like $2500 at NAB 2007 to have 8 years of praise and adulation for their amazing personal risk, vision and valor. Let's get over that low risk moment and allow those who are in the game now to be rewarded for funding current R&D with personal risk capital and reap the rewards of that action with 1st in line for everything. It's not like there was a second 4K option in 2007 . . . it was a no brainer played with small poker chips for anyone in the industry then. Whole different landscape now, so anyone who commits $2K/m to RED on faith should be rewarded with gratitude from us and exclusive goodies by RED.

According to a Poll on this forum, the NAB Weapon introduction has like a 28% approval rating. It's not the technology that was hammered - it was the financial model and communication that was soundly rejected.

Let's aggressively move ahead with a blank sheet approach to RED's upgrade path and loyalty program. It's easy say "sux" . . . how about providing a better idea?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top