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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Shotgun Mics

I see Finner referred to this earlier in the thread...

Any update on whether or not RED will be making their own Microphone Shoe Mount accessory? For people doing certain projects, such as EFP/ENG/Run'N'Gun work, this seems vital.

If I missed it on here, would someone point me to the thread?

And if it is in the works, a picture and description would be great.

thanks,
 
Well, hello!

It's not that I didn't like them. I thought in reviewing them I did a pretty straight-up job. The reviews are in the On Line Arcive on my site.
(www.tyford.com)

Have a great weekend!

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
Ty Ford said:
Well, hello!

It's not that I didn't like them. I thought in reviewing them I did a pretty straight-up job. The reviews are in the On Line Arcive on my site.
(www.tyford.com)

Have a great weekend!

Regards,

Ty Ford
Click to expand...

Ty!

Welcome to the forum! Your on-line review archive is a goldmine. It's great to have you here! You are the man! Post more, please!

When the Red comes out, someone needs to get you one as soon as possible so that you can tell us how good the built-in audio subsystem (DACs, preamps) is... I have been whining that they should include a digital input so you have the option to bypass them and record the signal from something like a Sound Devices 702T synchronized to picture to a single Quicktime in the camera - but everyone thinks I am crazy... Maybe I am? Anyway, you're the one we can trust for an answer to this. Sorry, getting OT. Just really glad to spot you on Reduser...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Some thoughts about production mics.

It's not a good idea to classify all mics made by one mfgr as better or worse. Audio Technica and Sennheiser specifically make mics across a wide enough spectrum to cover the buyers markets. A Sennheiser 66 is cheaper than a 416 and sounds cheaper. The 50, 60, 70 series are quieter. Some folks think they sound a bit -- what's the word they use? -- "clinical." That's pretty subjective. I think a lot of that has to do with the relatively fatter bottom and peaky top of the Sennheiser 416.

I've had new clients say, "Oh yes, we have a Sennheiser." only to find it was prosumer gear. Fortunately, I have my own gear. I have a Sennheiser 416 and an 816. I rarely use the 816.

There are still many Neumann shotguns in use, but they are getting pretty long in the tooth. Neumann has done a lot of good design work over the last decade. I think they should revisit the shotguns and update them, but because Sennheiser now owns Neumann, that probably won't happen. The Neumann RSM 191 is an amazing mic.

The Sankens CS-3e and CSS-5 are very nice. CS-3e is very tight and you need to have a good boom op. They are not as big on the bottom as the 416 and don't have the peaky top, so they sound more "natural."

The Audio-Technica 4xxx series mics are better than their 3xxx, 2xxx etc. In addition, their 835b and 835ST do well. They showed a new line with new numbers at NAB this year, but I don't see the mics on their site yet.

You may know that a shotgun mic isn't the ONLY mic you want on your boom. If you're shooting inside, or in a highly reflective outside area, you should try a hypercardioid mic.

The Schoeps cmc641 (which Schoeps calls a supercardioid) is THE tool. Their CMIT shotgun is also quite nice and matches very nicely with the cmc641. I've used the cmc641 at surprising distances outside. We were run and gunning on Capitol Hill a few weeks back. I didin't know we'd be going outside, so I left the wind gear and 416 w/rycote behind so I wouldn't have to lug them around all day.

Surprise! We need to shoot on the SE corner of the Capitol Steps! Mild to moderate wind. I had the cmc641 and B5D pop filter. I usually pull a Rode Dead Cat furry over the B5D rather than a Baby Ball Gag because it's cheaper, lighter and fits in my pocket, but (again) I didn't expect to go outside at all. (No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

The shots were all close to ECU, so I sidled up as close to the congressman as I could, blocked the wind with my chest and cranked up the mixer. NEAT! I was very (happily) surprised by the reach of the cmc641. The mic was about 4 feet away from the congressman and got every word he said. Because we were outside (with the cement being the only reflective surface) there was little if any reflected sound, so I cold be that far away. I did have to keep people from stepping between me and the congressman, but I'm 6' 2" and 210 lbs, with a Sound Devices 442 and wireless bag strapped to my chest via a Portabrace shoulder harness and a boom in my hands, I usually don't have a problem getting the space I need. :)

Anyway......

The cmc641 is the gold standard. You don't see a movie set without them. Below that (in order) are the AT4053a from Audio Technica, the Audix SCX-1 and Oktava MC012 with hyper capsule.

It's Saturday morning. I really didn't expect to go on like this. Blame it on the coffee. :)

I shot a simple video as a companion to my location audio book explaining mic choices and stuck it up in my online archive. It's called Ty For Mic Tutorial Video.mp4. I can't link you to it directly but if you go to my my website (www.tyford.com) and then to my On Line Archive, you'll find it in the Video folder.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
Bruce Allen said:
Ty!

Welcome to the forum! Your on-line review archive is a goldmine. It's great to have you here! You are the man! Post more, please!

When the Red comes out, someone needs to get you one as soon as possible so that you can tell us how good the built-in audio subsystem (DACs, preamps) is... I have been whining that they should include a digital input so you have the option to bypass them and record the signal from something like a Sound Devices 702T synchronized to picture to a single Quicktime in the camera - but everyone thinks I am crazy... Maybe I am? Anyway, you're the one we can trust for an answer to this. Sorry, getting OT. Just really glad to spot you on Reduser...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...


Hello Bruce and thanks for the flowers!

I would enjoy the opportunity to check out the Red audio. If anyone knows how to get me one here in Baltimore, please let me know.

Camera audio is usually low on the budget. When I first started sending audio to Sony Betacam SP and Digibeta cameras I almost had a heart attack. What was this crap coming back from the camera to my mixer!!?? How can I tell if it's good or bad?

I talked to the Sony camera guys at NAB on several occasions about the quality of the headphone output. They listened very politely but sort of shrugged their shoulders. Some soundies have been using the 5-pin XLR audio out on the Digibeta. Some say it's better than the headphone out. I haven't checked it.

If anyone at RED is interested, here are my thoughts on camera audio.

1a. Really good mic preamps are not that tough or expensive to design. If you can't do it yourself, hire George Massenburg to design one for you. He's got the street cred to sell a lot of cameras for you. He's in Nashville a lot these days. If you can't find him, let me know.

1b. Make the line input separate so that it bypasses the mic preamp. (Let George do that.)

2a. DO include a pad, phantom power. Don't bury the audio parameters in the menus (as the Sony ZU1 does).

2b. DO put some decent scales up for the audio metering. These will be rms/peak meters, showing both simultaneously as the Sound Devices 442 display does. Use real numbers and change colors. I'd love to know where -60 is. I HAVE to know where -20 is. I also want to know where -12, -10, -6, and -3 are. Make everything between the lowest point and -12 dB green, between -11 and -6 yellow and -5 and above red. Put the display somewhere I can see it during the shoot and illuminate it (as an option) so I can see it if I'm on a darkened set.

3a. Engineer in enough gain in the headphone amp so we can actually hear what's going on.

3b. Find a place for the headphone circuitry that doesn't pickup a lot of electronic noise. Put the headphone jack where you can easily plug in without breaking the camera return/headphone plug or jack.

4. If you DO decide to put AGC in, make it defeatable.

5. Feeling brave? Here's a tough one; confidence recording without much latency. It's a huge challenge (and headache) to mix properly with 40 mSec of delay.

6. Blow my skirt up, record at 24-bit, 48 kHz as a minimum. Anything over 24/96 is pretty much a waste, AFAIC. Have a 5.1 surround option.

7. If the camera will be file based rather than tape based, consider a 4 channel input that creates timecode stamped poly-wav files.

8. Digital input? Hmm, Well that would let you feed from the new-ish Sony field mixer (I think I saw another location mixer with digital out at NAB this year. Don't remember the make. Cantar?) Certainly a workable thing for studio shoots with house consoles have digital outs. BUT!! Can you get by with just AES/EBU or do you need word clock as well? I don't know the answer to that question at the moment.

Thanks for the opportunity.

See you on the set.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
Welcome to RED User Ty

Those are some excellent observations...
 
Thank you, Gibby, rmott and all

It would be great if a camera was produced that really DID have righteous audio. It'd be very cool to be a part of that.

BTW, Bette and I are headed for San Francisco this August to hang out for a week in Berkeley and see if we can figure out how to pull a move from Baltimore to the SF area. Easy for Bette, she's an oncology lab tech at Johns Hopkins Hospital. I'm just another audio nomad who's been in one place for a long time. I'll be looking to plug into the SF location and studio audio/singer-songwriter/VO talent channels.

If anything comes to mind, let me know.

Regards,

Ty

We'll be looking to see if it's feasible to make it work. We liked Oceannside, but it was too far away from everything...even Lake Forest. :)
 
The cmc641 is a wonderfully flat mic that pulls midrange detail out of dialog better than any other I've heard. The 416 is s great mic, but sounds "processed" or "aggressive" by comparison. It's also a bit funky to off-axis sounds and sholdn't be used in normal interiors (sound stages are NOT normal) or outside in highly reflective environments.

The CMIT from Schoeps is a shotgun that sounds VERY much like the cmc641, but with reach. Both fall off very nicely at the pattern edges without weird anomalies.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
TimothyD said:
Good point, this also goes for placing a lav. Putting it right in between the chest and mouth fights plosives (from being too close to the mouth) but captures a nice resonant sound from the chest cavity. It is amazing the difference a few inches makes.
Click to expand...
Yes and a lot depends on the talent. Some have no chest tone, others do.

Regards,

Ty
 
planet e said:
can the schoeps mics be used effectively in relatively fast conditions? is it too much microphone to use without a dedicated audio operator? say, for travel docs, for instance, where conditions can be very fast and set-ups require maximum efficiency....or are these mics really for studio environments primarily?

for the price, do they offer better sound than, say, the MKH60?
has anyone ever worked with the schoeps shotgun, and have any useful feedback or direct experiences to relate, good or bad? it's a relatively new product, so there is little information about it. there's just not a lot of user info out there.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have worked with the CMIT.. Sounds like a cmc641 with reach. Has a HF lift for use heavy wind protection devices. See my review in the On Line Archive at www.tyford.com.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
planet e said:
i'm spending a bunch of money on the best camera i can. so i want to upgrade the audio. i keep reading about schoeps mics but have no experience with them, and i don't know of any online shoot-outs that include the schoeps shotgun or the super-. is there such a thing? can anyone advise me on the stupidity vs. intelligence of investing in the so-called top of the line?


I have have some samples in the Audio folder in my On Line Archive.

I own 2 Schoeps cmc641. The only reason I haven't bought a CMIT is because I wanted a Sound Devices 744T and some lighting gear.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Click to expand...
 
RedCrosser said:
I've also heard some good reviews of "Sanken". Investigate the CS-1 short shotgun microphone. The CSS-5 is also used a lot for recording sound effects.
Click to expand...

If you like the CS-1, get the CS-3e. That's the one.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
dxmetal said:
Ty,
I heard the Schoeps cmc6/41 cant be used in humid condition at all? Makes me wonder, is this a northern country only Mic ?
Click to expand...

Hello Mr. Metal,

If this was a serious problem, you wouldn't see Schoeps on so many soundcarts.

I'm in Baltimore and work here and in DC. Anyone familiar with the area knows that July and August are filled with 95 degree 99 percent humidity days.

I own two cmc641. I have used them in the humid mid atlantic summer (outside) with no problem. I have used them outside in a misty rain, no problem.

Here's the thing. The connection between the capsule and body, over time, can build up schmutz. That schmutz, over time, when in a humid or wet environment can absorb moisture building up a schmutsy resistance. When that happens, the mic will sputter.

The last time it happened to me, I was inside in an airconditioned set. No humidity problem there. That was three years ago.

Sometimes simply unscrewing and rescrewing the capsule a bit will rub the contacts enough to solve the problem. Storing the mic with the capsule attached to the body keeps the surfaces from being open to collecting schmutz.

Cleaning can be done with a toothpick, alcohol and some thin cloth.

Put some alcohol on the cloth.

Holding the mic contact points so they point DOWN (so any excess alcohol drops away from the mic parts), you can then CAREFULLY use the toothpick push the cloth GENTLY up into the circular contact grooves to swab the surfaces.

DO NOT LET EXCESS ALCOHOL DRIP INTO THE CAPSULE OR BODY.

I am NOT responsible for damage to any gear as a result of your effort. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
Ty Ford said:
I'm in Baltimore and work here and in DC. Anyone familiar with the area knows that July and August are filled with 95 degree 99 percent humidity days.
Click to expand...

DC was built on a swamp. "Foggy Bottom", the nickname of the State Department, is the name of a swamp.
 
Hi Ty
do you use any kind of compressor limiter while recording on field or you apply only on post?
thanks
Michele
 
Hello Michele,

I use a Sound Devices 442 mixer. It has very nice limiters on each input and on the outputs. They are designed to work smoothly to keep the peaks from overdriving.

They give me confidence that I can record at higher levels without going into the red. Higher average levels means the audio is further above the noise floor.

I'll usually compress and limit a little just to increase the overall loudness during the mix.

Regards,

Ty
 
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