Shotgun Mics

[Bruce Allen]

That's right, Schoeps CMIT is very musical, with an off-axis response that is pretty neutral - not as colored as the 416. Much better for musical instruments, sound effects recording (although an argument can be made that a schoeps 41 hypercardiod plus their figure 8 is better for mid-side SFX recording than a shotgun plus fig 8 since that leaves a few more dead patches at weird angles).

I think the 416 is naturally louder, slightly noisier and definitely not as flat as the CMIT. It makes people's voices sound cool, but also kinda the same. This is good and bad. Believe it or not, the 416 is used by many voiceover artists - it's good for something that cuts through a loud mix without too much sweetening - think quick-turnaround commercial voiceovers, "big trailer voice" stuff, etc. but not good at capturing subtle individual tonalities, harmonies and nuances.

Personally I like the 416 because everything in my films is always no-budget and kinda dodgy there are so many weird and non-mainstream things going on already that it is kinda comforting to have my actors' voices that sound like they come from at least the same universe as Hollywood.

That said, Schoeps 41s for interiors are great.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[planet e]

thanks, you guys. exactly the kind of feedback i was interested in....i'm always interested in hearing about off-axis performance, since i usually work under fast conditions. maybe someday i'll actually make something in my studio, instead of renting it out to other people....all that planning and forethought does not so much suit my personality, it seems.

 

[Mike the beginner]

wow, did i really sound that green? of course i know better than to mount a microphone to a camera. if i were to go with what i already know i'd probably pick the senny MKH60. i don't love the sound of the 416, it always sounds a little too crispy to me, i like a little warmer sound, and it has the issue of needing to be carefully directed to the sound source. the 60, i think, is a more forgiving microphone. mostly, i'ved used sennheiser microphone systems, and they are very reliable.

and, of course, as david suggests, there's a learning curve to any equipment upgrade. i'm looking forward to pushing my knowledge base and shooting skills with RED, so i'm not afraid of having to do the same with other complex instruments. the issue is that they are not available for demo-ing in my area, and there is not much info online about them. there's tons on senny, audio technica, rode, etc. lots of opinions, feedback, and audio files. the same can't be said about the schoeps, hence my inquiry.

i guess i should have asked more specific questions.

can the schoeps mics be used effectively in relatively fast conditions? is it too much microphone to use without a dedicated audio operator? say, for travel docs, for instance, where conditions can be very fast and set-ups require maximum efficiency....or are these mics really for studio environments primarily?

for the price, do they offer better sound than, say, the MKH60?

has anyone ever worked with the schoeps shotgun, and have any useful feedback or direct experiences to relate, good or bad? it's a relatively new product, so there is little information about it. there's just not a lot of user info out there.

planet e i hope you did not think my post was directed at you! I am green and trying to learn as much etc. There are probably several others out there browsing this thread who are perhaps a little green as well. Like i said in my post there are guys who do nothing but record sound and DVXuser has comments from Oleg about the schoeps shotgun. Worth taking a look. Just trying to be helpful:innocent:

Mike the beginner

 

[GlennChan]

mostly, i'ved used sennheiser microphone systems, and they are very reliable.

Of microphones I've seen break, I've seen Apex (cheap knockoff mics) and the Sennheiser ME-66 break. With the ME-66, putting too much strain on the connector will do it (i.e. you put it on a boom, and always have the wire yanking on the XLR). If you treat your equipment decently, this probably won't happen.

2- From what I've seen, sound people all have their favorite microphones. Some people always use a particular mic... i.e. the Sanken CS-1, Schoeps MK41, Sennheiser 416, etc. I don't think any of those microphones have such a big edge over the others; you can get professional results with any one of them.

Keeping the big picture in mind, the most important things to do (in roughly the following order is):
A- Get the microphone as close as possible / close enough. If you are doing run and gun, you can't do much here other than to get a second handheld mic, wired or wireless (which will work if you're interviewing people). This is by far the #1 thing to do.
For narrative, if you can't get a boom mic close enough then go wireless lav too. Not shotgun mic will save you; shotguns only help with the problem distance a little bit.
B- Use the right type of microphone for the application / have a variety of microphones. Usually a boom mic does the best job in most situations, but in some situations some other kind of microphone is better.
C- Find locations that are good acoustically / move people into better sounding situations if you can. Equipment can't fix too much reverb or excessively high background noise.
For narrative work, turn off things that cause a lot of sound (AC, fridge [watch out for the food], check the talent's costume for noisemakers, etc.).

D- Have decent support gear like a good windscreen and microphone mount. The better ones will really help deal with handling noise and wind noise.
E- Point the mic decently at the talent, don't introduce handling noise into the mic, and *monitor your audio*.
F- If shooting indoors, you might want to use a non-shotgun mic since some shotguns (especially the lower quality ones) sound weird indoors.
G- If you need to use a shotgun, get a higher quality shotgun. i.e. an AT4073 versus a ME66. IMO, the ME-66 is noticeably inferior sounding to better microphones. With other types of microphones it's not a big difference, but with shotguns it is.
For wireless units, the better units do make a difference in reliability and quality if you have the money.

IMO, the other stuff is very very important. What mic(s) you pick in the end doesn't matter too much.

 

[Adrian T.]

turn off things that cause a lot of sound (AC, fridge [watch out for the food])

There's a simple trick which helps to remind you to turn the fridge on again after the shoot: put your car keys in! :red_bandana:

 

[chuck colburn]

I didn't read this whole thread so excuse me if it's been mentioned already.
When pointing the shotgun at the talent try to aim for a spot between the chest and the mouth. I've been told this gives a fuller sound than aiming right at the head.

 

[martinnoweck]

There's a simple trick which helps to remind you to turn the fridge on again after the shoot: put your car keys in! :red_bandana:

LOL + a good idea!!!

Martin

 

[TimothyD]

I didn't read this whole thread so excuse me if it's been mentioned already.
When pointing the shotgun at the talent try to aim for a spot between the chest and the mouth. I've been told this gives a fuller sound than aiming right at the head.

Good point, this also goes for placing a lav. Putting it right in between the chest and mouth fights plosives (from being too close to the mouth) but captures a nice resonant sound from the chest cavity. It is amazing the difference a few inches makes.

 

[Cam McGrath]

Sennheiser 416 all the way....I have owned mine for 16 years now and it has survived all sorts of environmental and 'not so environmental' (physical) abuse around the world. I have no hesitation in recommending it as the workhorse for location sound come rain hail or shine!

 

[Clint Johnson]

There's a simple trick which helps to remind you to turn the fridge on again after the shoot: put your car keys in! :red_bandana:

This doesn't work when the location is your own apartment (while I was looking for an apartment to rent for the shoot I was also location scouting). We shot three days there and then moved to the Vancouver City Police Museum. It was two days into that location before I had opportunity or reason to cook myself a meal.

Mid-summer heat wave.

Nasty.

 

[P Andersson]

a short introduction to the different mic options in a clip

http://homepage.mac.com/tyreeford/.Public/Video/Ty Ford Mic Tutorial VIdeo.mp4

 

[zak forrest]

I've had good results with Sennheiser over the years, but I've also used shotguns from other makers. I'll be looking for a good short shotgun, because many of the camera setups I use have lenses that are physically short, like the RED 18-50 and wide primes, I need to keep the mic out of the frame, and I need to be real mobile.

A 6" shotgun with excellent pattern and response will be my ambient audio ticket for mobile use.

When using a sound man and mixer, that's a whole different story...there's a lot of options there...

let us know what you decide on... im looking for a short shotgun to mount on my red as well, and i trust your opinion

 

[Leo Ticheli]

With regard the schoeps i would add this, it is far more delicate than the industry standard MkH416, which is built like a tank. The scoeps is not advisable if working under humid or damp situations either or run and gun rough treatment, that is what i have read:wink:

Mike the beginner

I can't say if the Schoeps is more or less rugged than any other microphone, but mine have been subjected to some bumps along the way and I've never had one fail.

I work primarily in the Southeast, quite a humid area, and I've never had a problem.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Steve Gibby]

let us know what you decide on... im looking for a short shotgun to mount on my red as well, and i trust your opinion

Hey Zak,

I'll do that...

I've been tubed with other work and I haven't been actively sorting out the mic situation. I have a Sennheiser 416 that would obviously work well with RED One, and I may use it with certain equipment setups. But I'm also looking for a short, compact, high-quality shotgun for good ambient audio with mobile setups that use compact wide angle lenses.

 

[zak forrest]

Hey Zak,

I'll do that...

I've been tubed with other work and I haven't been actively sorting out the mic situation. I have a Sennheiser 416 that would obviously work well with RED One, and I may use it with certain equipment setups. But I'm also looking for a short, compact, high-quality shotgun for good ambient audio with mobile setups that use compact wide angle lenses.

cool. yeah ive been thinkng of getting a 416 for a while, just to have, because its the greatest, etc. but yeah a shorter one... for those kinds of situations....

 

[OwenR]

yep thumbs up for the 416 here!!

 

[I Bloom]

I don't claim to know about sound. But I started working with a sound guy who uses Schoeps mics and I noticed a really dramatic improvement.

IBloom

 

[Bruce Allen]

I don't claim to know about sound. But I started working with a sound guy who uses Schoeps mics and I noticed a really dramatic improvement.

IBloom

1. Improvement over what? A guy with a 416?

2. Which mic? The MK41s (little black indoors ones) or the CMIT (the blue shotgun)?

The Schoepses are great. But maybe it's just because guys who are really into sound are often also the same ones who like Schoeps. And they're also likely to have good preamps, etc. And also to know what they're doing...

Tell us more, man.

Cheers

Bruce
www.boacinema.com

 

[Justin Anderson]

1. Improvement over what? A guy with a 416?

2. Which mic? The MK41s (little black indoors ones) or the CMIT (the blue shotgun)?

The Schoepses are great. But maybe it's just because guys who are really into sound are often also the same ones who like Schoeps. And they're also likely to have good preamps, etc. And also to know what they're doing...

Tell us more, man.

Cheers

Bruce
www.boacinema.com

I've heard a lot of good things about Schoeps mics. I believe they use them on "The Office" as their primary boom mics. I'd love to know how they compare to the 416.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I've heard a lot of good things about Schoeps mics. I believe they use them on "The Office" as their primary boom mics. I'd love to know how they compare to the 416.

Again, which Schoeps? MK41 or CMIT? The MK41 is a hypercardiod. Great for indoor dialogue, or as part of a MS combination for SFX recording, etc. Makes sense they use the MK41 in The Office because it's, well, set in an office (let's forget the fact that the whole set is I am sure designed for sound, so you could probably use a shotgun for it anyway...) Not to say you can't use the MK41 do outdoors, just it doesn't have as much reach.

The CMIT and Sehnnheiser 416es are shotguns. Often much better outdoors. I just went through the differences - Schoeps is more flat and natural. Off-axis is nice. This is your best choice if for some reason you are mic'ing a musical instrument or sound effect or something. Or want to get subtle voice tones. The 416 is more durable, louder, cheaper, not flat, and has a bassy, compressiony proximity effect that makes your talent sound like they are IN A MOVIE. But less subtlety - sometimes you want that. That's why Sennheiser still sells them, even though in theory the MKH60 is their better mic...

I have simultaneous recordings of them all on my hard drive somewhere. Will look later. But it's out on the Internet somewhere... Ty Ford?

By the way, take a look at the Sankens. Ty Ford didn't seem to like them too much, but others love them for in-the-field use. They are very interesting and versatile mics and have a way of cutting through noise in a room to pick out the speech in a very nice way. Not sure exactly how they do it. Underrated - for both interiors and exteriors.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com