Scarlet...

[Gunleik Groven]

Lawrence.

You're not the only one who have happily been singing the 3k for 3k mantra.
I've been singing it a lot, too, even with a R1 on my side.
I liked it. I am sad to see it go.

...and I do ultimately see a good reason for it to go.
It IS actually those two years too late in making to really have the monopolitic take on the market it could have had... two years ago.

And RED defining itself as a pro company is nothing but good.

Sad.
Good.
Fine...

 

[Lee Saxon]

Wow, I thought most people would be ecstatic about HDRx and my sort of melancholy "Well, I have no doubt it's worth that extra $1000 but sadly I just don't have it," would be as negative as it got.

How did all the "zomg Scarlet canceled 4 realz u guys" happen? Damn internet.

 

[David Dennis]

I am very low-income compared to other RED customers, and of course I am as disappointed as anyone else by the higher prices.

But I'd like to offer a little perspective, by chiming in with a little history.

When the original 3K for $3k concept was announced, people started screaming like crazy that a camera without an interchangeable lens option was (insert your favorite really bad word here). I remember reading large numbers of people saying things like, "I don't care if the price goes to $9k, give us interchangeable lenses or give me death!" To be honest, since I really liked the original Scarlet concept, I was a bit shocked at the vehemence of the comments.

So Jim and his team thought about this, and came up with a new, huge line of Scarlet cameras with a choice of interchangeable and non-interchangeable lenses. The base price of the fixed Scarlet was never formally announced but the interchangeable was $2,995. I think most people assumed around $3.5k for the fixed base unit. Eventually it was announced that fixed Scarlet would be sold in a package for about $4,795. Since that was broadly in line with the cost of RED accessories I would say the price was reasonable and realistic - a $3k base price means about a $5k base camera.

At about the time, I think Jim was looking at Chinese contract manufacturers to build his products. However, I think he was having a harder time than he was expecting finding someone to build a truly professional camera. There were clearly some issues with the hardware prototypes he was getting, and as a result he made the decision that RED products would be made in the USA, presumably in a factory under his control.

Now we have a $1,000 price increase. I strongly suspect part of that increase is HDRx™ and part of it is to build the camera in the USA instead of China. This is part of what I believe the announcement of "RED is a Pro Camera company, not a mass market extrude the junk prosumer company" really meant. RED is now a pro camera, built in a pro facility directly controlled by RED, and even the base model includes the pro feature of HDRx™.

I do think that no matter what class of filmmaker you are, from gadget-freak to seasoned pro, there is value in having a RED Camera actually made by RED. If you think of this price increase as about a 20% increase, 10% going to having the camera made by RED and 10% to HDRx™, maybe that makes it feel a bit more palatable.

For those who want a camera the price of, say, the just announced Nikon D5000 for $1,000 plus $600-odd for a lens, realize that RED can never do this. Even the announced price of $3k plus needed accessories is far more expensive than this. Anyone seriously interested in a $5k camera is going to be able to afford a $6k camera in a bit more time, especially in view of likely release dates.

It seems especially sad to me that the people who have the least are the most demanding. Those who can afford Epics are begging to be allowed to pay their deposits. Just by reading this forum I could probably name RED's top 10 customers, and those nice folks, who really keep the company going, are buying like crazy. They won't whine about $1,000, they probably have catered lunches for their crews costing more than that.

In the mean time, many folks like me, who would struggle to afford $5k and will struggle just a bit harder for $6k, are demanding, rude and downright mean to Jim. If you want the product it's just a 20% price increase. If we fired directors based on 20% budget overages there would be precious few directors left! What Jim is doing is every bit as complex and demanding than a major feature film, if not more so. His crew works nearly 24/7 for us.

Don't kill the goose who made the golden gadget, guys

David

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Lawrence.

You're not the only one who have happily been singing the 3k for 3k mantra.

Well, I'm not really singing (intoning?) the mantra. I'm merely saying that people can legitimately disagree with Red diehards and should be allowed to do so without being attacked. Red has finally conceded that they did try to court the consumer market and that doing so was a mistake. It happened, but it's over. So enough of the revisionist history. Let's move on.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Who am I kidding? I'm still going to buy a Fixed Scarlet even with this price increase.

Can't afford it, couldn't afford it BEFORE the price increase. Can't afford the D700 or 14-24 2.8 I just bought either. I'm a total amateur shooting for fun (and my college newspaper) making ZERO return on these investments. But I just want RAW motion at 120fps sooooooooo much and possibly am a little bit insane.

Damn you for being irresistible, Jannard!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Damn you for being irresistible, Jannard!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but he's already spoken for.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I guess I missed how specific you were being with that eloquent statement. Jim has been pretty clear and specific about price changes relative to the spec changes. Of course, "...subject to change."

It was easy to miss, I guess. I still think you're rude, but I like you anyway .

My point is this: Red could have leveraged the market force that a high-volume product could have given them to fund the hugely ambitious R&D that we're all excited about and are benefitting from. Now, I don't believe that such low price points are possible moving forward. Like when Monstro gets released, for example.

I personally don't care. I'm just in love with the "bang for the buck" I get for every dollar I invest in the product. That won't change.

Another consideration that we will all confront when these cameras hit the street is the over-application of HDR footage that will eventually become the norm and will no longer be "special". I also think it will "date" projects that both use it and don't use it. What a problem to have, though, huh? I can't wait.

 

[JD Holloway]

For me the bottom line is this...

the minor increase in price will be made up the first day on a professional set.
-Lighting and grip equipment (Ex/Line/Producers/P.M.s Happy)
-Lighting and grip set ups and tear downs (makes 1AD Happy)
-Post production headaches (Post happy)
-Image quality (YOU and the Director are happy)

If you dont need to care about these people, you have other options, vocationally...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

It was easy to miss, I guess. I still think you're rude, but I like you anyway .

People tell me that all the time... well, not so much rude as exciteable and opinionated. Sorry if I offended. Golly, you're not so bad either. :smiley:

My point is this: Red could have leveraged the market force that a high-volume product could have given them to fund the hugely ambitious R&D that we're all excited about and are benefitting from.

(snip - for emphasis)

Here, I do have to respectfully disagree. The only way that this scenario works is when you make some profit on each unit so that you have a lot of cumulative profit to reinvest. My guess is that the "3K for $3k" thing was starting to shape up as "we lose money on every unit but make it up in volume?" Doesn't work. Obviously, the key is that you have to make money on each unit. There's no way the "loss leader" concept would work in this scenario. I think the mass market isn't for Jim. I like to point to his approach at Oakley. There are no $29.95 Oakleys being sold on those plastic racks at Walgreens; no Scarlets at Best Buy.

I personally don't care. I'm just in love with the "bang for the buck" I get for every dollar I invest in the product. That won't change.

Boy - we agree 110% here!

Another consideration that we will all confront when these cameras hit the street is the over-application of HDR footage that will eventually become the norm and will no longer be "special". I also think it will "date" projects that both use it and don't use it. What a problem to have, though, huh? I can't wait.

I don't really see this as the HDR that is ends up giving a sort of "surreal" look. I think this is just expanded dynamic range - more stops of light, allowing higher lighting ratios, which, when properly used, will simply yield a picture more like we can see in real life. (We can only hope that display technology catches up quickly). Make no mistake, I am sure you are right in suggesting that there will be an "overuse" of the effect and plenty of "fake looking" scenes. Remember the desktop publishing "revolution" and all those brochures with 12 different typefaces that looked like ransom notes. Yeah - we'll see some of that for a while.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

Okay, look, I agree that magic HDR is going to be awesome. I even think it's coming in at a great price on the cameras. What my problem is...At this rate, the cameras are never, ever, ever, going to release. Every new discovery will lead to a re-haul.

Honestly? I would've been happy with the Scarlet years ago. At least I'd have it and be shooting with it, even if I don't have all the newer features.

 

[Marcus Versén]

The fuck.... I'm out

 

[Chase M. Wrenn]

Has there been any word on finding a new manufacturing partner for the Scarlet? I'm stoked about the HDRx feature, less so about the price, but I do believe it's worth it. And now it sounds like there will be a bit more time to save up for it, but more curious if everything, despite there being delays, is going smooth now for RED? If RED will be able to still push out the Scarlets soon after the EPICs as originally announced? Just wondering...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Wow Jeff...I simple I was wrong would of sufficed, wasnt you claiming you didnt know where everyone was getting this 3k for $3k came from?

I know exactly where the 3K for $3K saying came from. However, that ship sailed in September/October 2008 when RED was re-thinking Scarlet. In November 2008, the DSMC system was announced along with Scarlet becoming three different camera "brains". A few people did complain a bit, but the 3K for $3K attitude was still kept alive in the sense that the interchangeable brain was still under $3K and the fixed lens model wasn't a whole lot more. We have seen subsequent changes and price adjustments since then. For example, there was an approximate $250 price hike on each of the three Scarlet brains a while back to add some support for higher REDCODE rates and to maintain the same level of RAW support and internal color science support as we would get with Epic.

My point is that I don't understand why there is so much focus on "3K for $3K" now... Two years after that concept was dispatched. I'm not saying that I wouldn't love to see a 3K Scarlet in a ready to shoot package for $3K, that would be cool. But those days are gone and that is old news. I'm really wondering if people are actually still jerking off to trade show videos from 2.5 years ago, as if they are still relevant?? And as I said in my last post, most of us who were at NAB in '08 didn't walk away with the impression that $3K would buy you a real shooting package in any professional sense. The outward marketing was saying one thing, the actual analysis of the mock-up in the display case was saying something else. Lots of things have been added since than, most with no price hike at all in order to give us this "professional" level camera.

 

[Tim Hole]

Me thinks this arguments gonna stay around for a while. Sigh!

 

[Oliver Moereels]

But those days are gone and that is old news.

Most of the people whining that those days are gone are saying they're going to go AF-100. And that'll cost around $6k. So I'm not sure it's fair to expect logical and rational thinking of them...

 

[Bill Anderson]

What's the ruckus about? I don't think that much has changed with this announcement, at least as far as an incredibly fair price for pro styled tools is concerned.

And hold on a sec, I have to top up my popcorn.

 

[Kaku Ito]

yeh that price list seems about right, scarlet fixed package still cheapest route

(assuming prices don't change again)

BTW - I'm still in. I can 'man up' to these pro prices

:thumbup1:

 

[Raul Gonzo]

One very big oversight I made when I got a red was that I thought it would just cost X amount of dollars and not a penny more.
I was very very wrong.

There are so many other things besides the camera that you will need/want:
A good tripod
Lenses
matte box + Filters
Good mics
more accessories
more memory for the camera
more memory for your computer
back up memory for your computer's files
follow focus + accessories
cases, cases, cases
a monitor
little things you never think of, etc., etc...

If $6k is too much now, there's a good chance $3k was too much then.

 

[Ryan M.]

Ok, its an additional $1,000, as much as that is, one honestly can't really complain. Look at it this way you will NOT* find any other alternative with the features that the fixed Scarlet has for anywhere close to that price. For me that means building and selling a few more workstation systems to pay the extra.

*Well I suppose if you find an older used 16mm cam (Arri 16S etc...) and used lenses you could spend a little less (if you're lucky) but then your talking about a different animal.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Looking at the upside, Jim has stated that RED is a for Pro camera Co. No matter what the model, Jim sees it as PRO standard. And Jim and his team are setting pretty high standards in their quest to satisfy their own Pro needs, so I can't imagine any of their gear will clip anyone's image-making aspirations, at any price. Now isn't that something worth celebrating?