Scarlet-W Compression Spec Change

[K. Agarwal]

... the camera still records 140MB/s and that translates to a REDCODE compression ratio of 4.1 : 1 .

People take that number and round down to 4:1 but the Camera takes that number and rounds up ( for just display ) to 5:1... Hence the confusion.

Thank you for clarifying this up and responding to it so promptly!

Is there a way we can specify 4.1:1 over 5:1 in the camera menu? Does media size effect compression ratios on the Scarlet-W?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Yes but don't forget that prores recording increases the compression too. So it's better to have a 4:1 camera to start with for prores but also for VFX/greenscreen.
Thanks Jarred and Brent for the fast reaction.

Unless I misunderstand your point, I don't think the compression on the R3D has anything to do with the ProRes recording. They are completely separate recording paths. In other words, the recording of the ProRes is from the sensor, not from the R3D.

 

[Ugo Del]

Unless I misunderstand your point, I don't think the compression on the R3D has anything to do with the ProRes recording. They are completely separate recording paths. In other words, the recording of the ProRes is from the sensor, not from the R3D.

Maybe it's me who misunderstood. I think I've read that you lose one point of compression by shooting R3D+prores on Weapon. So 5:1 if you shoot R3D alone and 6:1 if you shoot both.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Unless I misunderstand your point, I don't think the compression on the R3D has anything to do with the ProRes recording. They are completely separate recording paths. In other words, the recording of the ProRes is from the sensor, not from the R3D.

The issue is data rate which still needs to fit through the ASICS boards. Both streams are separate but needs to be written at the same time. So there is a cap when doing both streams. CF Weapon is naturally able to have more throughput.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Red is the only Camera company (or possibly any type of company) where the top two guys answer on a Sunday. This type of communication is a big reason why I'm getting a Red.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttLJNOOsPiY

 

[Andy Corleone]

Good morning everyone.. I woke up to the same question most of you are having.... with absolutely no idea what the fuck just happened.

After loosing my shit to a few of my people.. It is clear we have a bit of clusterfuck between our engineering and our guy that makes the pretty charts and who rounds what number to what.

Anyways.. Nothing has changed in the camera. The max data rate is the same as it was yesterday, the camera still records 140MB/s and that translates to a REDCODE compression ratio of 4.1 : 1 .

People take that number and round down to 4:1 but the Camera takes that number and rounds up ( for just display ) to 5:1... Hence the confusion.

As for the other weird numbers across the specs... Brent will get that cleaned up.


Apologies all.

Is been more than a week, Specification in the website still the same and I can't find a clarification about this.
It seens the Scarlet-W is capable of 140MB/s. But been bottlenecked by the camera software to lower rates.

As Far as compression is well knows that :

5K @24 4:1 translate to 127MB/s
5K @24 5:1 translate to 102MB/s

Seems weird a software miss interpretation is displaying something else (Software is developed by RED not by a third party) so basically you should be able to show whatever you like but at the end user should be able to verify that the camera in deep do a max of 140MB/s as you claim.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Is been more than a week, Specification in the website still the same and I can't find a clarification about this.
It seens the Scarlet-W is capable of 140MB/s. But been bottlenecked by the camera software to lower rates.

As Far as compression is well knows that :

5K @24 4:1 translate to 127MB/s
5K @24 5:1 translate to 102MB/s

Seems weird a software miss interpretation is displaying something else (Software is developed by RED not by a third party) so basically you should be able to show whatever you like but at the end user should be able to verify that the camera in deep do a max of 140MB/s as you claim.

If Jarred says its 4:1, then its 4:1.

His word means more than whats currently on the website (which Im sure is being updated).

 

[Brent Carter]

Jarred's original post is correct. It is 4.1:1. However, camera UI does a conservative rounding. Meaning, 4.1 rounds to 5 in the UI, but actual is indeed 4.1. Therefore, operations guides, website, etc reflect as the UI does instead of cross-talk. The error online had a round down, which was incorrect.

Before anyone asks, can we show a tenth on camera UI, that is 4.1:1 for example. It would be a major overhaul indeed so not in the plans.

That all being said, the 140MB/S speed has gone unchanged, you have lost no performance.

 

[Anton Shavlik]

So if I select 5:1 compression I'm getting 4.1:1?

What if I select 6:1?

What if I want true 5:1?

Or is every dragon camera's 5:1 really 4.1:1?

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

So if I select 5:1 compression I'm getting 4.1:1?

What if I select 6:1?

What if I want true 5:1?

Or is every dragon camera's 5:1 really 4.1:1?

I was wondering this myself, but came to the conclusion that custom fractional ratios are only used at the lowest compression ratios, which in the case of Scarlet-W at 5K, is 4.1:1.

I'm guessing the camera can only handle an average of 127 MB/s, and 4:1 was 127.x, so they added 4.1:1 disguised as 4:1 since it was so close. Higher ratios wouldn't require this, so 5:1 would actually be 5:1 and so on.

I'm just speculating, but maybe someone can confirm this?

 

[TheBied]

The REDCODE selector is a target or desired REDCODE.

If you select 5:1 and the current settings allow for 5:1, the UI will indicate 5:1 in white and the camera will record at 5:1.

If you select 4:1 but the current settings will only allow 4.1:1, the UI will indicate 5:1 in yellow and the camera will record at 4.1:1.

So if I select 5:1 compression I'm getting 4.1:1?

What if I select 6:1?

What if I want true 5:1?

Or is every dragon camera's 5:1 really 4.1:1?

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

If you select 4:1 but the current settings will only allow 4.1:1, the UI will indicate 5:1 in yellow and the camera will record at 4.1:1.

Wouldn't it make more sense to display 4:1 in yellow? lol

All jokes aside, we're just being nitty. Regardless of whatever it rounds to, I'm excited at how amazing this camera is going to be.

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

- The Scarlet-W main product page lists "Capable of shooting 5K motion and stills at up to 60 fps"

Well, it's been some time now since the original 5:1 blowup, and I'm guessing most of the discrepancies have been addressed.

I'd rather not rehash this thread, however I just noticed that the main product page for Scarlet-W has been changed from reading "Capable of shooting 5K motion and stills at up to 60 fps" to "Capable of shooting 5K motion and stills at up to 50 fps (Full Frame)".

Is this change correct? According to the Scarlet-W DSMC guide that was just published (http://s3.amazonaws.com/red_3/downl...ON/DSMC_Operation_Guide_WEAPON_v6.2_Rev-G.pdf), page 80 says that Scarlet-W can still do 60fps in WS, but only 50fps in HD/2:1 and 47fps in FF.

Am I missing something? 60fps in 5K HD was the biggest selling feature for me. Have I been mistaken this whole time, or has it changed?

Please be clear that I'm not complaining, I'm simply trying to clarify. No need to have another blow up here.

 

[Brent Carter]

Note the compression ratio on the ops guide is at 8:1 while on PRODUCT page Tech Specs you will see differing compression ratios. In marketing copy, we generally refer to Full Frame or WS/2.41:1, not HD, so that would not have changed in any marketing copy (ie, non-tech spec tables).

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

I will have them check, Nathan.

Thanks Brent.

Either way there's definitely a mix up somewhere. One reads 47fps 5k FF, while the other 50fps 5K FF, neither of which are the 5k 60fps that was advertised when most of us pre ordered.

In the end it is what it is, but man, this is a biggie for me. Fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

Thanks again!

 

[Gene Sung]

I will have them check, Nathan.

Jarred and Brent, if you guys can make Scarlet-W 60fps @ 5K Full Frame, myself and many others would be so grateful. 60fps is such a key frame rate. Would be so nice not to have to switch to 4.5K to achieve this.

I have not asked for a single feature request on Scarlet-W, but if I had to have one, this would be HUGE.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Brent Carter]

Gene, unfortunately, that is beyond the horsepower of SCARLET-W...

 

[Brent Carter]

Thanks Brent.

Either way there's definitely a mix up somewhere. One reads 47fps 5k FF, while the other 50fps 5K FF, neither of which are the 5k 60fps that was advertised when most of us pre ordered.

In the end it is what it is, but man, this is a biggie for me. Fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

Thanks again!

Nathan, see my edited post above. I know for a fact that 5K at 60 FPS was always a WS, not HD, reference. Going through all old assets now and that is what I am seeing...

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Nathan, see my edited post above. I know for a fact that 5K at 60 FPS was always a WS, not HD, reference. Going through all old assets now and that is what I am seeing...

The mention of 5K HD was just referencing my own needs.

I guess the "Capable of shooting 5K motion and stills at up to 60 fps" on the original product page just always implied 5K FF to me, which clearly wasn't the case (hence the changes to 50 fps now).

A bit of a let down, as Scarlet-W is now a 4.5K camera for 75% of my use (sports and such). But like I said before, it is what it is.

Either way, thanks for the quick clarification Brent. Much appreciated.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

50 fps at 5K Full Frame (5120 × 2700) and 9:1REDCODE
60 fps at 5K 2.4:1 (5120 × 2160) and 9:1REDCODE
100 fps at 4.5K Full Frame (4608 × 2412) and 14:1REDCODE
120 fps at 4.5K 2.4:1 (4608 × 1944) and 13:1REDCODE
120 fps at 4K Full Frame (4096 × 2160) and 13:1REDCODE
150 fps at 4K 2.4:1 (4096 × 1728) and 14:1REDCODE
150 fps at 3K Full Frame (3072 × 1620) and 10:1REDCODE
200 fps at 3K 2.4:1 (3072 × 1296) and 11:1REDCODE
240 fps at 2K Full Frame (2048 × 1080) and 8:1REDCODE
300 fps at 2K 2.4:1 (2048 × 864) and 8:1REDCODE