RPPs... 4K vs. 5K

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, as Jim said, most of the longer focal lengths for cine lenses are going to cover the larger 30mm sensor anyway, even with older lenses. It's the wide-angle ones where you may or may not have issues of lens coverage for larger sensors.

I appreciate Jim's personal involvement and candor, and the information he is willing to provide. It's the constant exuberance by his fans that gets a bit tiresome, like praising RED for giving them the option of shooting 16x9 for a 1.85 release??? That's just strange. I've been doing that for years. I do that when I shoot 3-perf 35mm, when I shoot on the F900, when I shoot on the Genesis, etc. It would have been bizarre if RED didn't have that option. It's like praising a car manufacturer for putting in windshield wipers.

My (unfortunate) cynicism only kicked in when I read Humburto's effusive post, not Jim's post.

Going with an off-sized non-standard sensor is a risk that comes with rewards, but it is still a risk. It carries with it considerations for whoever will be dealing with it (like me!) In the long run, no, I'm not too worried because as Jim says, a lot of people are still going to shoot in 4K mode using a Super-35 area, and others will shoot 5K and not have trouble with lens coverage on their longer focal lengths.

But this is a GREAT opportunity, to provide critical feedback for RED's development, for users to come up with issues or potential problems that perhaps haven't occurred to the designers at RED. Don't waste it by falling into some sort of knee-jerk praise and acceptance for every decision that RED makes. Look carefully at the pros and cons. Exercise your critical faculties.

 

[Chris Pickle]

I never really understood what the "options" or benefits of a larger physical size sensor were. (I admit that my understanding of what the industry might really want could be limited) Generally, I still think that s35 is the holy grail. Once we've mostly approximated 35mm cinema film (in chip size), then why push so hard to go bigger? Doesn't that introduce a massive amount of issues.. lenses, DOF, etc. (Am I wrong? Doesn't a larger chip screw with all that?) The entire support system is based on that.

Now again, I'm not saying we shouldn't innovate, but I really don't see what the end game or goal is. What are we trying to accomplish with physically bigger chips?

I guess if you want some of the FF stills business, then maybe a larger chip would be good?

Why not make digital S35 the best it can be?

Again, what's the end game?

Chris

(BTW - not directed at anyone really or a criticism. I'm just wondering in general)

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Why not make digital S35 the best it can be?

Again, what's the end game?

Chris

Why have different lenses? What's the end game for lenses?

The end game is that a larger sensor lets you shoot with a larger format. Which is to say there is no end game. Why do we have different film stocks? Why do we have different lights and filters and diffusion and scrims etc etc etc... because they all make the picture look a little different.

I think sensor size is just one more little tool in our bucket.

 

[Stevewalker1966]

Red Purchase

Red Purchase

This is a message for Mr.Jannard
Hi I'm Steve Walker a DOP based in Amsterdam , The Netherlands.
I've been shooting on the RED one since it's introduction in Amsterdam.
I used one of the early models on a short film & although incomplete I realized then it's potential.

Please check out my site where a small selection of red spots can be seen.(more to come soon)
www.stevewalker.nl

It was tough in the beginning to convince all the neccessary parties to make the decision to shoot with REDone.
But it was the first digital camera to capture my imagination.
So with quite a bit of perserverence it has become alot easier in the last 3-6 months.

In fact recently the Redone has taken off in Holland.

So ...after more than year of renting I am thinking of buying a Redone & lenses but perhaps this is not the right time if the Epic will be superceding it soon.
Would you recommend buying Redone or waiting a bit for Epic?

Looking forward to your reply.

Steve Walker NSC

 

[Jannard]

This is a message for Mr.Jannard
Hi I'm Steve Walker a DOP based in Amsterdam , The Netherlands.
I've been shooting on the RED one since it's introduction in Amsterdam.
I used one of the early models on a short film & although incomplete I realized then it's potential.

Please check out my site where a small selection of red spots can be seen.(more to come soon)
www.stevewalker.nl

It was tough in the beginning to convince all the neccessary parties to make the decision to shoot with REDone.
But it was the first digital camera to capture my imagination.
So with quite a bit of perserverence it has become alot easier in the last 3-6 months.

In fact recently the Redone has taken off in Holland.

So ...after more than year of renting I am thinking of buying a Redone & lenses but perhaps this is not the right time if the Epic will be superceding it soon.
Would you recommend buying Redone or waiting a bit for Epic?

Looking forward to your reply.

Steve Walker NSC

Steve... welcome to reduser.

While there is no downside to buying a RED ONE (you can turn it in for full credit on an EPIC)... you are likely to get hooked and want to keep it and also buy an EPIC!

It really depends on what you think "soon" is.

Jim

 

[Jannard]

Well, as Jim said, most of the longer focal lengths for cine lenses are going to cover the larger 30mm sensor anyway, even with older lenses. It's the wide-angle ones where you may or may not have issues of lens coverage for larger sensors.

I appreciate Jim's personal involvement and candor, and the information he is willing to provide. It's the constant exuberance by his fans that gets a bit tiresome, like praising RED for giving them the option of shooting 16x9 for a 1.85 release??? That's just strange. I've been doing that for years. I do that when I shoot 3-perf 35mm, when I shoot on the F900, when I shoot on the Genesis, etc. It would have been bizarre if RED didn't have that option. It's like praising a car manufacturer for putting in windshield wipers.

My (unfortunate) cynicism only kicked in when I read Humburto's effusive post, not Jim's post.

Going with an off-sized non-standard sensor is a risk that comes with rewards, but it is still a risk. It carries with it considerations for whoever will be dealing with it (like me!) In the long run, no, I'm not too worried because as Jim says, a lot of people are still going to shoot in 4K mode using a Super-35 area, and others will shoot 5K and not have trouble with lens coverage on their longer focal lengths.

But this is a GREAT opportunity, to provide critical feedback for RED's development, for users to come up with issues or potential problems that perhaps haven't occurred to the designers at RED. Don't waste it by falling into some sort of knee-jerk praise and acceptance for every decision that RED makes. Look carefully at the pros and cons. Exercise your critical faculties.

Well said.

One of the other factors behind the scenes of sensor package size is yield. That also had an impact on the (about) 30x15mm size.

Jim

 

[James Brundige]

So ...after more than year of renting I am thinking of buying a Redone & lenses but perhaps this is not the right time if the Epic will be superceding it soon.
Would you recommend buying Redone or waiting a bit for Epic?

Looking forward to your reply.

Steve Walker NSC

I'm not sure hijacking this thread is the best way to reach Jim, but the price of a Red One can be fully credited towards an Epic. No reason not to buy the R1, if you are headed for an Epic.

 

[James Brundige]

Well said.

One of the other factors behind the scenes of sensor package size is yield. That also had an impact on the (about) 30x15mm size.

Jim

What is yield?

 

[Lee Saxon]

What is yield?

As in "what percentage of the pieces of silicon we stamp the sensor circuitry onto actually yields a working sensor"

They improve as design and manufacturing technology in general improve, but they still tend to start off low with new sensor/microprocessor/etc designs and manufacturing processes and increase as those designs/processes mature. That's why Intel never releases a microarchitecture redesign and a process shrink at once. They release the new microarchitecture in the mature (right now 45nm) process and once yields mature some they shrink it to the new (coming soon, 32nm) process. I hate the marketing name - 'Tick, Tock' - but they've proven that the system works.

Yields also decrease rapidly as size and number of circuits/photosites increases.

The lower yields are, you have to charge more for each sensor that does come out right to make up for all the silicon (and time) you threw in the trash.

That's why until fairly recently all DSLRs were all APS-C (24x16mm) - 35mm (36x24mm) sensors were so low yield as to make them unfeasibly expensive.

 

[Jannard]

As in "what percentage of the pieces of silicon we stamp the sensor circuitry onto actually yields a working sensor"

They improve as design and manufacturing technology in general improve, but they still tend to start off low with new sensor/microprocessor/etc designs and manufacturing processes and increase as those designs/processes mature. That's why Intel never releases a microarchitecture redesign and a process shrink at once. They release the new microarchitecture in the mature (right now 45nm) process and once yields mature some they shrink it to the new (coming soon, 32nm) process. I hate the marketing name - 'Tick, Tock' - but they've proven that the system works.

Yields also decrease rapidly as size and number of circuits/photosites increases.

The lower yields are, you have to charge more for each sensor that does come out right to make up for all the silicon (and time) you threw in the trash.

That's why until fairly recently all DSLRs were all APS-C (24x16mm) - 35mm (36x24mm) sensors were so low yield as to make them unfeasibly expensive.

Additionally... the actual sensor size determines how many you can put on one wafer. Why put 12 when you can scale a bit and get 14 (less wasted space)?

Lee is correct. If you make 2 sensors per wafer and have a defect, the yield is 50%. If you have 10 sensors per wafer and have a defect, your yield is 90%... hypothetically speaking.

Jim

 

[Van Din]

I'm not sure hijacking this thread is the best way to reach Jim, but the price of a Red One can be fully credited towards an Epic. No reason not to buy the R1, if you are headed for an Epic.

However, if you are headed for a Scarlet ??....

Wouldn't it be a good business for you and everybody too ?

I know a lot of people who would buy a Red One now if the trade program would comprehend the Scarlet FF35....
________
Subaru Legacy History

 

[James Brundige]

However, if you are headed for a Scarlet ??....

Wouldn't it be a good business for you and everybody too ?

I know a lot of people who would buy a Red One now if the trade program would comprehend the Scarlet FF35....

This thread is wandering a bit.

I posed the same question last fall when the program was announced. The response was the Epic X, a special model which includes all the I/O and other modules that are built into the Red One. I think that offer is very respectful of R1 buyers who bought in early. In the case of Scarlet, how can you credit an $18,000 unit toward a $7,000 item? After all the modules you will need to make a Scarlet cinema ready, it may equal the price of a Red One, but Red needs a little more room to make a generous offer like that work.

 

[Thomas Mark Schaefer]

Well said.

One of the other factors behind the scenes of sensor package size is yield. That also had an impact on the (about) 30x15mm size.

Jim

Then how about this: Offering discount S35 "refurb cameras" where a limited number of dead pixels are median filter fixed in firmware?

 

[Chris Newman]

Lee is correct. If you make 2 sensors per wafer and have a defect, the yield is 50%. If you have 10 sensors per wafer and have a defect, your yield is 90%... hypothetically speaking.

2 sensors per wafer? That hypothetical sounds about like an Epic 617.

 

[Alan Fletcher]

I'd be inclined to put one 617 on a wafer, then a smaller one above and below, then fill in the corners with .... [assuming the same process, of course].

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Let me say that I don’t mean to offend anyone, or create cynicism with any one; I’m just simply stating my point of view. If I seem overly excited about Red is because while other companies are standing still, they are moving ahead of the pack. Not only are they moving ahead, they are sharing their prototypes with us before it’s time. No other company that I know off those that. So again I’m sorry for anybody who was insulted by my views, but they are my view nonetheless. If there is a typo here and there, well, I just human.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Deanan]

Then how about this: Offering discount S35 "refurb cameras" where a limited number of dead pixels are median filter fixed in firmware?

Defects can come in many forms like dead sections, clusters, etc.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

In Vietnam, I was a young Marine, at night we had to stop in a friendly place, wherever it was, what a surprise it was that “North by Norwest” was playing that night, I had seen the film several times, and I was amazed by the crowed of Vietnamese which understood the film in English, with no subtitles, and they spoke no English. I said Alfred Hitchcock was a great filmmaker and I was just sharing that little bit of trivia with you all.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Jannard]

Let me say that I don’t mean to offend anyone, or create cynicism with any one; I’m just simply stating my point of view. If I seem overly excited about Red is because while other companies are standing still, they are moving ahead of the pack. Not only are they moving ahead, they are sharing their prototypes with us before it’s time. No other company that I know off those that. So again I’m sorry for anybody who was insulted by my views, but they are my view nonetheless. If there is a typo here and there, well, I just human.

Humberto Rivera

Humberto... you're good. I'm on your side.

Jim

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Thanks, Jim keep up the good work you’re doing!

Humberto Rivera