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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RPPs... 4K vs. 5K

Requiem for a dream

Requiem for a dream

David Mullen ASC said:
Well, as Jim said, most of the longer focal lengths for cine lenses are going to cover the larger 30mm sensor anyway, even with older lenses. It's the wide-angle ones where you may or may not have issues of lens coverage for larger sensors.

I appreciate Jim's personal involvement and candor, and the information he is willing to provide. It's the constant exuberance by his fans that gets a bit tiresome, like praising RED for giving them the option of shooting 16x9 for a 1.85 release??? That's just strange. I've been doing that for years. I do that when I shoot 3-perf 35mm, when I shoot on the F900, when I shoot on the Genesis, etc. It would have been bizarre if RED didn't have that option. It's like praising a car manufacturer for putting in windshield wipers.

My (unfortunate) cynicism only kicked in when I read Humburto's effusive post, not Jim's post.

Going with an off-sized non-standard sensor is a risk that comes with rewards, but it is still a risk. It carries with it considerations for whoever will be dealing with it (like me!) In the long run, no, I'm not too worried because as Jim says, a lot of people are still going to shoot in 4K mode using a Super-35 area, and others will shoot 5K and not have trouble with lens coverage on their longer focal lengths.

But this is a GREAT opportunity, to provide critical feedback for RED's development, for users to come up with issues or potential problems that perhaps haven't occurred to the designers at RED. Don't waste it by falling into some sort of knee-jerk praise and acceptance for every decision that RED makes. Look carefully at the pros and cons. Exercise your critical faculties.
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I agree and disagree MR. Mullen. First and foremost you have my respect, as you are a great addition to this forum, a master, and i am but a student. But the thing about Red is they have an uncanny knack for getting things right, and i as well as many others here on reduser have learned to trust that. Really, I think we love that we can trust that. With all the tech/cam support, benefits, discounts, upgrades, straight forwardness and rewarded loyalty, its honestly the best investment/relationship I have ever been in (LOL).

When it comes to Jim's vision of the new cameras, it reminds me alot of my future forward way of thinking, which is how i came to invest in the Red in the first place (#1452), Here was something that fit with the level of emotion and passion I had about my futures work, here was the perfect tool. Red has not been bound by sticking to the script and this is where they have prevailed on every level. Jim has his mind in the future and his hands as well and he has pulled digital cinema cameras(that which are equivalent to film and in a lot of cases better) out from a portal and shared it with all of us. I understand that the 645 will need different lenses and I am confident Jim/Red will make them for me. This is no longer a competition nor weigh in with the film game, Red is RED, its something completely different, its the future and I dreamt it and I embrace it because I did not grow up shooting film and although i love the look of the films i grew up on ( Being there, Neverending story, Glory, Amadeus, The Natural, Raging bull ) I love the look of Red and i have seen Red footage finished that can have an old look to it with post or lens choice and that made me very fuckin happy:thumbsup:, pardon my french but i love the way this stuff looks ( http://www.vimeo.com/1656620 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFBiySaAUps ) and prefer it as opposed to the new red reel (sorry red, looks great though ; ).

I was also tired of fanboys and knee jerk responses back in the day, but the term fanboy died out long ago when and since this camera has been kicking ass on nearly every set, so knee jerk responses at this point is a mix of excitement and deliriium (lol) because of the journey the red army has made out in the field to get the cameras deserved respect. Im actually still recovering from being on set the last two days with a high fever ; ) thank god it was only a two day shoot. It is so funny to have been shooting all year and to hear only just recently that silence in the air on set that has finally come, that silence is acceptance, people are just working now and i dont have to stick up for my camera anymore.

So please Jim, keep contributing to this forum, but dont get sidetracked or question your thinking, I want a 645 with 645 lenses and a 617 to follow, I'm ready to buy them when their ready and ill be able to afford them by then with all the hard work I'm putting in, I have sold everything for this dream and i break just even with my loans and debt, but the future looks so bright and brilliantly colored because im shooting on Red and Im tuned right in to the rhythym, beatmatched and autotuned. Red is the future, a modular upgradeable beautiful machine, setting the bar for all other companies, and as an owner of alot of electronic music equipment, i cant wait to see how the other companies follow ; )


Michael Moreno
Red #1452
(still waiting patiently for jason ramsey to add my real name)
 
I'm glad you are happy. It's good to be a satisfied customer. Over the years, I've been blessed by the generosity of others, from Beverly Woods at Deluxe, Don Henderson and John Pytlak at Kodak, many people at Fuji, Denny Clairmont at Clairmont, Marc Shipman-Mueller at ARRI (who I went to film school with), Bob Harvey, Andy Romanov, Dan Donovan etc. at Panavision (Panavision donated a camera for free for two weeks so I could finish my first feature after the camera we were renting from another company kept breaking down)... the list goes on and on.

It's been a good career of people helping me... and I've been grateful. Even as a beginner, the people above helped me out with deals, with free stuff, with advice, and with their good company. RED was also generous and helpful on my RED features. It's a great company.

This industry can be hard to work in, or get work in, but it's made up of a lot of great people who are there to help, especially among the vendors, the manufacturers, the rental houses. But also among the crews, the other cinematographers, even your own competition. It's the reason why I spend so much time giving back by passing on what I've learned.

But all these people are smart folks, and they are adults, and professionals... and they can take criticism when it is well thought-out, polite, and appropriate. They are happy to take praise as well, of course, who doesn't like praise?

But maybe it's the Japanese half of me, and my (somewhat stoic) upbringing, but constant, effusive, and hyperventilated praise... well, if it ever were heaped on me (and that's unlikely), I think I'd die of embarrassment... I guess I was never meant to be a rock star!

But it's good to be happy, so be happy.
 
It seems to me that there is overwhelming enthusiasm for a reason.

When we released the RED ONE, the only real tool you could buy for $17,500 was an A-Minima (no lenses). A Varicam (720P) was $60K. A Sony 950 was over $100K. Learning on a rented film camera was just not an option.

I think we have enabled the thought of big screen capability to many... 5000 units later, it seems like that might be the case. Granted, a tool doesn't make you a professional, but it can certainly inspire you to try. We have all seen incredible work turned in by many that never shot anything more than an HVX200 and that would not have made anyone's reel... before this.

I happen to like the passion. While I don't have any Japanese blood, it is human nature to keep going when you have support. The "fanboys" are solely responsible for us swinging for the fences now. It costs a ton of money and a big commitment to invest in the projects we are doing. We would NEVER have done RPPs or EPIC and Scarlet without the vocal encouragement of this community. When people believe in you... you just don't want to let them down.

Jim
 
I for one am eternally grateful for what Red has done for us, and for film making in general - and it is all due to Jim and co's willingness to toss out the rules and take risks on crazy ideas.

I think that the ability to actually OWN your cinema camera, and use it everyday, is a huge leap forward in cinema as an art form - Imagine if painters had limited access to a canvas and paints, and at hugely expensive prices - There would be no Caravaggio's, De chirico's, Rothkos, what have you.

I think the effects of what you guys as a company have done will have hugely far reaching consequences - People will be free to make very personal cinema, and hopefully the need to recoup large expenses will no longer have to be a dominating influence over the creative process. This is in no way meant to demean people who are profiting and thriving in the world of film making as it stands today - Im only glad that the future seems to have other methods for making films in store.

Thank you Jim - I still cant believe that I have the tools in my hands that I do. Thank you!

Sincerely, Fanboy #5296

And while I've got my fanboy hat on - You do amazing work, Mullen!
 
Wow...
Well said.
Its really cool to get the history David and hear that kind of generosity in the film world. I got my camera for all the reasons jim stated and just thought i'd chime in on the red dynamic, because i get it, and i love it, and I'm a smart person, and an adult and a professional ; )
Red is a digital cinema camera and i love that i can shoot and post on my computer and thats the number one reason I love it.
Its a digital future and i get to shoot high quality stories with low budgets.
I am Happy.


Michael Moreno
#1452
( waiting on Jason Ramsey to change my real name )
 
James Brundige said:
The history I am referring to is more like the last 50 or 60 years, since 35 mm still film has been the de facto standard, and 50 mm lenses were considered "normal" for that format. I shot many super 16 shows during that time, which of course had a different lens language.
Evin has a good explanation here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2732
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35mm was not the de facto still standard 50 - 60 years ago, I would guess 6cm x 6cm or 6cm x 9cm (roll folm)was the most used everyday size, however hi end work was on 10" x 8" or 5" x 4". Many Press & wedding photographers were shooting sheet film in the 1960's.

Best.
 
Stephen Williams said:
35mm was not the de facto still standard 50 - 60 years ago, I would guess 6cm x 6cm or 6cm x 9cm (roll folm)was the most used everyday size, however hi end work was on 10" x 8" or 5" x 4". Many Press & wedding photographers were shooting sheet film in the 1960's.

Best.
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OK. And they shot Hasselblads on the moon. Perhaps its only me who thinks of a 50mm as a "normal" lens, but I think there are a few others.

BTW, I've had great results with the 150-600.

jb
 
James Brundige said:
OK. And they shot Hasselblads on the moon. Can we agree on 40 years? (that's 1979..... yikes!) Perhaps its only me who thinks of a 50mm as a "normal" lens, but I think there are a few others.

BTW, I've had great results with the 150-600.

jb
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Hi,

I don't believe 35mm stills was ever the de facto standard for pro photographers, except for news. For Amateurs yes.

Stephen
 
Maybe it's just my circle - magazines, news, travel. Published in National Geographic, Time, and NY times. Nikon F, just like like all the pros I know, except some of the sports and wildlife shooters who went with Canon. Never did weddings or commercials. When did all the 4x5 film disappear from the camera stores? Clearly I have the dates wrong (and can't add either). At any rate, I hardly think of 35mm as an Amateur format. Oh yes, and a few movies. (though all of those 35mm formats can make this discussion even more silly.)
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I don't believe 35mm stills was ever the de facto standard for pro photographers, except for news. For Amateurs yes.

Stephen
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I think you could make the case that 35mm was the de facto standard for professional journalists, pro sports photographers, among many others. More magazine covers were shot on 35mm than all other formats combined (pick any year). And Nikon also made 35mm cameras for NASA (moon cameras were Hasselblad).

No question that much of the advertising work was done on 6x6, 645 and 4x5 film cameras, but "pro" covers a big field... mostly owned by 35mm.

Jim
 
proper reply.. Sir.

the gang would answer but not necessary anymore.. the best photographers.. those who have made the history of photography.. they did it almost only on 35 mm.
 
In the mid 1980's it was very difficult to sell pictures that did not originate on 6x6 or bigger from my personal experiance in London.

Jannard said:
I think you could make the case that 35mm was the de facto standard for professional journalists, pro sports photographers, among many others. More magazine covers were shot on 35mm than all other formats combined (pick any year). And Nikon also made 35mm cameras for NASA (moon cameras were Hasselblad).

No question that much of the advertising work was done on 6x6, 645 and 4x5 film cameras, but "pro" covers a big field... mostly owned by 35mm.

Jim
Click to expand...
 
to sell.. yeah.. you said all. :)
 
Stephen Williams said:
AFAIK that's the difference between Pro an Amateur.
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hehe... not to beat a dead horse (not sure why this topic really matters anyway) but I'd have a hard time believing that anything has sold more than 35mm stills. What was the point of all this again?

Jim
 
the point is the difference between a commercial "thing" and art.. btw Mr Jannard.. did you already stand corrected your famous red shot movies list?.. LT is in cannes running for a award.. a precious pearl.. red now is in the middle of the history of filmmaking.. art.
 
That list was as of Feb. Many new projects need to be added.

Back to Stephen. I think there might be a lot of right answers here depending on the question. Stills can be broken up into several pieces... seems to me. I'm sure I'm missing a few, but here is a 1st blush at a short list. Just like motion jobs, different tools can be appropriate depending on the purpose of the job.

There are obviously exceptions to the list below, but primarily... these are the tools most used by professionals (back in the day) for each category.

Advertising- 35mm, 6x6, 645, 4x5 (medium and large format for studio work)
Astronomy- 35mm
Architectural-4x5, 8x10
Fashion- 35mm, 645, 6x6
Fine Arts- 6x6, 645, 4x5, 8x10
Landscape- 645, 6x6,, 612, 617, 4x5, 8x10
Microscope- 35mm
Nature- 35mm
News and Journalism- 35mm
Sports- 35mm
Wedding- 35mm, 6x6, 645

I also think it is safe to say that most every professional had a 35mm system AND a 6x system in his bag of tricks.

Jim
 
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