RED WEAPON VERSUS ALEXA SXT DELIVERY DATES

[Nick Morrison]

Just realised that the Magnesium Weapon doesn't have 4k PRORES .. THAT SUCKS !!!
So for my Heli rigs, Shot over, car rigs, Russian arm, edge arm, Scorpio and libra heads everything that weight is not an issue... I cant get 4k PRORES without spending another 20k !...
Very upset about this.

It just doesn't have the bandwidth. The CF 300mb/s boards are what make that possible. I'm sure if RED could pack it in, they would.

Also bear in mind the Carbon's are 8K upgradeable, and have noticeably better compression when shooting high-speed.

 

[Nick Morrison]

SXT, where are you? (Seriously I need another Arri, esp if it's got a new sensor)? Any idea guys?

I wonder if the new 6K sensor is part of the reason it's been slow to roll out?

 

[Mark Toia]

It just doesn't have the bandwidth. The CF 300mb/s boards are what make that possible. I'm sure if RED could pack it in, they would.

Also bear in mind the Carbon's are 8K upgradeable, and have noticeably better compression when shooting high-speed.

$20k more for 4k prores. This does not compute.

 

[Nick Morrison]

$20k more for 4k prores. This does not compute.

Its not $20K more for 4K prores - its $20K more for 300mbs boards vs 220mbs boards.

Our Epic Dragons can do 200mbs. SO Magnesium doesn't have much more juice than that.

One of the MANY things you get extra for the $20K...is 4K Prores...yes...but that's just one of the things.

Someone with a CF Weapon can confirm, but I think I read somewhere that the 4K Proress 444 files are SO LARGE...the CF Weapon may not be able to even shoot R3D's at the same time. That's how massive they are.

 

[Phil Holland]

My perspective on Weapon CF Woven and Forged is that exactly what Nick is saying. There's a difference in the processors, bandwidth, and perhaps boards even between the models. The Data Rate of 300MB/s and 220MB/s is the visible spec that simplifies things, but the extra guts needed for the 8K sensor and perhaps even assisting in a future upgrade path are in there. That makes up for the 4K and 2K ProRes difference in terms of maximum frame rates and resolutions as well as the 3D LUTs and all that. There's a lot going on in the camera in reality.

The Weapon camera itself is entirely new minus the significantly upgraded 6K Dragon sensor.

As for the topic of the thread. As far as I can see on social media Weapons have been being pushed out weekly in significant numbers for a long while. Slowed down a bit for the holidays, but there were people who got them the days before and after. RED's doing a very good job getting these things out into the wild. Raven and Scarlet-W will ship likely in larger volumes in my opinion as they don't require any of the logistics overhead of upgrades. Weapon upgrades deposits started NAB 2015 and pretty much every date mentioned has been hit or exceeded. Scarlet-W was the new baby in the mix and that was announced and will be shipping months earlier than planned mostly due to the demand of Scarlet owners or new RED shooters wanting to jump into the DSMC2 waters.

 

[Mike P.]

I'm being overly critical here, but when people shoot prores on Arri's they use it as the finishing format and I'd argue that 2k prores is too storage-heavy as an offline/r3d proxy codec... 4K prores across the Weapon line (sans Raven/scarletw) would've been awesome; 2k prores seems so 2010. Instead of being an obvious boon, it's more like, "oh hey, Weapon finally caught up to Alexa Classic." (And if the rumour mill is correct, it's just in time for Arri to release a true 4K+ camera of their own).

But whatever, I like having the option, and I'd rather have it and rarely use it, than not have it at all.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Hey guys! Lets not short change the Magnesium! It can do 225MB/s!!!!

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm being overly critical here, but when people shoot prores on Arri's they use it as the finishing format and I'd argue that 2k prores is too storage-heavy as an offline/r3d proxy codec... 4K prores across the Weapon line (sans Raven/scarletw) would've been awesome; 2k prores seems so 2010. Instead of being an obvious boon, it's more like, "oh hey, Weapon finally caught up to Alexa Classic." (And if the rumour mill is correct, it's just in time for Arri to release a true 4K+ camera of their own).

But whatever, I like having the option, and I'd rather have it and rarely use it, than not have it at all.

Who says you have to use 2K prores as an offline codec?

I have to imagine we'll be able do DNX36 quicktimes, now that the DNX option is going live. That is a true offline format.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Mark think about it.
Why on earth would you want 4k quicktime out of camera. Much better to push the bandwidh over towards the r3d´s side and then record small little prores files for offline editing. Then when done relink to the r3d´s.

The one cost difference is not so much (I think) Carbon 4k process, Mg no 4k process. But the fact that Carbon upgrade to 8k where as Mg does not.


So look at the extra cost as a way to get to 8k 4k prores 422 (if you really need it) and carbon. And in the upgrade you got a new mount. I think you get atlast 1000USD if you sell your old one used. Then a new AC power supply (don't know why) and a base i/o module and XL module... I like all those but if you sell them all add the 5000 USD discount on new stuff that is included, then the upgrade is not 20k.

 

[Mike P.]

Who says you have to use 2K prores as an offline codec?

I have to imagine we'll be able do DNX36 quicktimes, now that the DNX option is going live. That is a true offline format.

True, true... I was merely talking about any in-camera baked codec that is 10bit, 422+, a likely would've made a good finishing format... If all Weapons were 4k, a lot of tight turnaround productions would've shot prores/dnxhd and taken it all the way through post, similar to how a lot of Alexa productions do it now (which admittedly, is still only 2k for the most part)... 4k just could've given the entire weapon-line an edge in what has largely been an Alexa-only arena. It's kinda two-steps forward, one step back...

Wait, I know you can capture r3d, r3d+prores/dnx simultaneously, or just prores/dnx separately, but when you capture just prores/dnx (no .r3d) can you select 4k then (on MG Weapon, Scarlet-W or Raven)? If not, why not? Even Raven's 145mb/s (or whatever) would be enough for 4k 422 proves HQ (which is roughly ~100mb/s), no?

 

[Nick Morrison]

True, true... I was merely talking about any in-camera baked codec that is 10bit, 422+, a likely would've made a good finishing format... If all Weapons were 4k, a lot of tight turnaround productions would've shot prores/dnxhd and taken it all the way through post, similar to how a lot of Alexa productions do it now (which admittedly, is still only 2k for the most part)... 4k just could've given the entire weapon-line an edge in what has largely been an Alexa-only arena. It's kinda two-steps forward, one step back...

Wait, I know you can capture r3d, r3d+prores/dnx simultaneously, or just prores/dnx separately, but when you capture just prores/dnx (no .r3d) can you select 4k then (on MG Weapon, Scarlet-W or Raven)? If not, why not? Even Raven's 145mb/s (or whatever) would be enough for 4k 422 proves HQ (which is roughly ~100mb/s), no?

One thing that hasn't been considered...is that DNxHR (Avid's 4K codec) has LOTS of options.

Here are ALL the UHD Bitrates and formats possible:

UHD RECORDING WITH AVID DNxHR:

DNxHR 444 = 166.61 MB/S
DNxHR HQX = 83.26 MB/S
DNxHR HQ = 83.26 MB/S
DNxHR SQ = 55.07 MB/S
DNxHR LB = 17.14 MB/S

I have to imagine even a RAVEN could handle the UHD DNxHR LB or maybe SQ.

So sure, no Prores 4K across the entire DSMC2 lineup.

But...DNxHR UHD? Certainly looks possible.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm still kinda wishing there was a version with no prores option.

i mean, there is only so much bandwidth to go around and I would want to push it ALL into the R3D and lower compression on HDRX and Overcranked footage. I never cared much for prores in camera and 4K might be great for some applications, but I really like the r3d pipeline.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm still kinda wishing there was a version with no prores option.

i mean, there is only so much bandwidth to go around and I would want to push it ALL into the R3D and lower compression on HDRX and Overcranked footage. I never cared much for prores in camera and 4K might be great for some applications, but I really like the r3d pipeline.

True - but being able to walk away fast on set with quicktimes will be a major advantage for many people.

My clients are billion dollar broadcasters that only cut DNX 115. They run 40 edits a day. And even then, their storage is JAMMED. If you swapped out all their DNX for R3Ds they'd only have enough drive space for probably 8 edits. Just not feasible. At least for them. Bandwidth on that SCALE is what makes R3Ds prohibitive. Obviously on a fine tuned, single operator machine...its a different story. But when you are in a massive facility with THOUSANDS of projects...its just a different beast all together.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

True - but being able to walk away fast on set with quicktimes will be a major advantage for many people.

My clients are billion dollar broadcasters that only cut DNX 115. They run 40 edits a day. And even then, their storage is JAMMED. If you swapped out all their DNX for R3Ds they'd only have enough drive space for probably 8 edits. Just not feasible. At least for them. Bandwidth on that SCALE is what makes R3Ds prohibitive. Obviously on a fine tuned, single operator machine...its a different story. But when you are in a massive facility with THOUSANDS of projects...its just a different beast all together.

Even on a smaller scale. Shooting only one or two consistent project on R3D can really add up space wise. Without my LTO Drives I'd be drowning in hard drives. I'm not abandoning R3Ds at all, but I'm still super excited about ProRes and DNX onboard for various clients who want to quickly start editing for quick turnaround projects. And keeping the R3Ds means the colorist can link back to the RAWs during color.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm still kinda wishing there was a version with no prores option.

i mean, there is only so much bandwidth to go around and I would want to push it ALL into the R3D and lower compression on HDRX and Overcranked footage. I never cared much for prores in camera and 4K might be great for some applications, but I really like the r3d pipeline.

If don't use ProRes ir DNxHR/HD you can push the data rate into the .R3D via the slightly lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

If don't use ProRes ir DNxHR/HD you can push the data rate into the .R3D via the slightly lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio.

So RedCode and ProRes are independent? I thought the ProRes was on separate a separate board and therefore redcode and prores did not interfere with each others compression ratios.

 

[Phil Holland]

So RedCode and ProRes are independent? I thought the ProRes was on separate a separate board and therefore redcode and prores did not interfere with each others compression ratios.

They are separate "streams" but are written through the same pipe. For 6K FF @24fps with 4K ProRes the lowest REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio is 4:1. Without ProRes enabled, the lowest is 3:1. In that case you lose a tick of compression.

 

[PatrickFaith]

One thing that hasn't been considered...is that DNxHR (Avid's 4K codec) has LOTS of options.

Here are ALL the UHD Bitrates and formats possible:

UHD RECORDING WITH AVID DNxHR:

DNxHR 444 = 166.61 MB/S
DNxHR HQX = 83.26 MB/S
DNxHR HQ = 83.26 MB/S
DNxHR SQ = 55.07 MB/S
DNxHR LB = 17.14 MB/S

I have to imagine even a RAVEN could handle the UHD DNxHR LB or maybe SQ.

So sure, no Prores 4K across the entire DSMC2 lineup.

But...DNxHR UHD? Certainly looks possible.

Very good point. I'm hoping my magnum will be able to shoot with those 422 and lower bit rates at quadhd, I'm sure the elf's at RED are pondering it. btw ... LMAO ... but since this thread is theoretically about SXT, it's interesting that arri dropped dnx while RED just picked it up. Also I think with the XT camera that actually was a upgrade cost via the "plus" option. Anyway I think the ALEV 3 sensor was a great sensor, but I wouldn't want to sync ~ $90k in a ALEV 3 in 2016 unless I had a huge job were I wouldn't care about a $60k write off(i.e. I think the depreciation on the alev 3 is going to be fast).

 

[Brian Merlen]

I think even if SXT had a new sensor I'm sure Alexa mini will be stuck on this gen for a while until they can miniaturize the technology. Honestly my Amira has been killing my red cashflow wise so even if Arri releases Amira 2 I'm not worried at the rate things are going it may not ship til nab17

 

[David Battistella]

Hey Phil,

i totally get that by "turning off Prores" you can then make the best possible "master r3d file". But turning on prores does limit things, the same way shooting two streams with HDRX limits compression ratios.

Im all about choice and prores in camera is a good option to have and i think that adding dnxhd is a great thing as well.

Im also a bit of an r3d snob because i would take the better compression, higher framerates but more importantly the RESOLUTION that the r3d file over a log 2k prores just because of the RESOLUTION.

One question though phil. Lets say i really want those 2k prores as proxie files. Do my r3d compression options change if i choose LT instead of HQ. I havent had the hands on time to figure that out.