RED V-Raptor [X] 8K VV

[Phil Holland]

More good info directly from Jarred Land via Y.M. Cinema. Essentially confirms it’s a double exposure, benefiting from the global shutter to minimize artifacts, and some advice on how to use it. Corroborates Phil’s early findings. I can’t wait to get my hands on it!

RED V-Raptor [X]: Extended Highlights Explained - Y.M.Cinema Magazine

The most intriguing features of the newly announced RED V-Raptor [X] is the Extended Highlights (beta), as a part of the Global Vision.

ymcinema.com

Yes, it's sort of like HDRx in general method, but with the addition of utilizing extra frames, some internal, and external processing. And I think the core reason this works so well is with the Global Shutter it's actually instantaneously reading the entire next frame. It is still capturing the additional track/slice (I think this is more appropriate terminology considering the time ramifications) at a faster shutter speed, but that additional technique and hardware related stuff is what makes this work so well.

It's not a perfect solution for every situation. The note on excessive fast motion is relevant. But it's oddly very good for a wide variety of shooting situations. And I think importantly, looking at the whole picture, it can likely be improved upon or customized to your whim if you need to do stuff like that.

The biggest selling point for me first is this being a 120fps 8K VV sensor with Global Shutter without any real hit to Total Captured Dynamic Range or Image Texture (grain/noise). Everything on top of that is gravy. And in particular, this Extended Highlight feature I can find lots of uses for. And I was a fervent HDRx user as well, but this is certainly better in it's implementation and works for more practical filmmaking scenarios.

 

[JudgeNick]

without any real hit to Total Captured Dynamic Range or Image Texture (grain/noise).

THAT is great to hear. I really love the grain/noise pattern on the V-Raptor. Very finely distributed, very low in chroma noise and blotchiness, it’s just so nice to look at. That was my biggest fear in moving to the new sensor. Glad to hear you find it to be more or less equivalent.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Yes, it's sort of like HDRx in general method, but with the addition of utilizing extra frames, some internal, and external processing. And I think the core reason this works so well is with the Global Shutter it's actually instantaneously reading the entire next frame. It is still capturing the additional track/slice (I think this is more appropriate terminology considering the time ramifications) at a faster shutter speed, but that additional technique and hardware related stuff is what makes this work so well.

It's not a perfect solution for every situation. The note on excessive fast motion is relevant. But it's oddly very good for a wide variety of shooting situations. And I think importantly, looking at the whole picture, it can likely be improved upon or customized to your whim if you need to do stuff like that.

The biggest selling point for me first is this being a 120fps 8K VV sensor with Global Shutter without any real hit to Total Captured Dynamic Range or Image Texture (grain/noise). Everything on top of that is gravy. And in particular, this Extended Highlight feature I can find lots of uses for. And I was a fervent HDRx user as well, but this is certainly better in it's implementation and works for more practical filmmaking scenarios.

Hey, Phil can you also answer the question in my previous post?
Would you shoot an entire feature with EH mode on? What are the instances you think you would turn EH mode off if storage is not an issue for you?

 

[Phil Holland]

Hey, Phil can you also answer the question in my previous post?
Would you shoot an entire feature with EH mode on? What are the instances you think you would turn EH mode off if storage is not an issue for you?

I think the proper way to use Extended Highlights is to use it when you need or want to. Yeah, you can leave it on, but it's fairly trivial to toggle it on and off and see if your are clipping or not. It's a toggle and not rebooting the camera or anything. On most features I've worked on lighting is so controlled that I'd likely only use when trying to "go for something". That could be a hot window for a daylight dinner scene, could be to retain some more info on a hard rim light, or similar. That said, creatively and technically, I do often like "going for something". So for me it's also finding ways to implement it if I find reason to.

 

[Kevin Winzeler]

Current firmware is 1/5.99th of a second.

I do wonder if RED can create a special long exposure mode of some sort. Now that this thing has more horse power, I can see some potential for Frame Averaging, Summing, and a few other things we haven't had before in cameras.

Timelapse Mode is there. And I can't stress how cool Extended Highlights are for that style of work. I shot plenty of HDRx timelapse work on DSMC and DSMC2 bodies. However, this is a far better implementation and significantly higher quality due to the new heavy processing and vastly increased data rates.

There are people who use these cameras for stills and yesterday I did a bit of that as well.

Can you confirm that 360 shutter angle is possible at 1/5.99 of a second?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I think the proper way to use Extended Highlights is to use it when you need or want to. Yeah, you can leave it on, but it's fairly trivial to toggle it on and off and see if your are clipping or not. It's a toggle and not rebooting the camera or anything. On most features I've worked on lighting is so controlled that I'd likely only use when trying to "go for something". That could be a hot window for a daylight dinner scene, could be to retain some more info on a hard rim light, or similar. That said, creatively and technically, I do often like "going for something". So for me it's also finding ways to implement it if I find reason to.

So if A track (while shooting EH ) is visually identical to regular shooting mode i would rather shoot it with EH mode always on.I can just turn it off in post and use the A track where i dont have that extra highlight protection.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Can you confirm that 360 shutter angle is possible at 1/5.99 of a second?

I guess you're asking if the camera allows a recording frame rate of 5.99fps, which according to the manual it does. Phil has said that currently, 1/5.99 is the slowest shutter speed (unless I misunderstood him) which also means that 6fps is as low as it goes at this time.

 

[Ian D]

I guess you're asking if the camera allows a recording frame rate of 5.99fps, which according to the manual it does. Phil has said that currently, 1/5.99 is the slowest shutter speed (unless I misunderstood him) which also means that 6fps is as low as it goes at this time.

Pretty much the same as the v raptor.

 

[Phil Holland]

To the point of the current slowest shutter speed/angle/integration time. Several of us have certainly requested it as something to tackle via firmware upgrade.

But, I do truly think there are layers of complication here related to sensor calibration, sensor calibration optimized speed, and likely getting a clean signal off of extremely fast readout sensors.

I think it's worth adding. DSMC2 topped out at 1 second. Generally at these speeds, which mostly means long exposure and likely timelapse work, this is still a better job for a mirrorless camera that does dark frame reduction and all that. I can see RED going to the lengths of adding all of that potentially, but Frame Summing and Averaging at some point become somewhat more useful solutions. Those I wouldn't mind getting back in cameras. And I think it's something we can potentially explore nowadays with similar resources tied to Pre-Roll.

It would be rad to have an Averaged or Summed frame of a few seconds. But again, this is niche stuff outside of the primary function of the camera.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Why do the new Red cameras still not allow control of fps like an old still camera or film camera?

I would like to see a "bulb" setting so I can do VERY long exposures on a single frame etc.

 

[M Harvey]

Why do the new Red cameras still not allow control of fps like an old still camera or film camera?

I would like to see a "bulb" setting so I can do VERY long exposures on a single frame etc.

This would be very cool, but see Phil’s comment directly above re: the advantage of mirrorless cameras.

I’m sure that these features could be implemented, but it’s a trade off of resources. That is, the camera might get much more expensive (for what most would consider a niche feature), or the camera would work less well relative to its main design objective. (For example, if it paused after every long exposure to do dark frame subtraction.) Or in practical business terms, maybe Red would make less money per camera or have to employee more engineers—and only sell a few extra cameras.

All that said, if enough people want these features and are willing to pay for them, Red would probably be willing to do it.

 

[Björn Benckert]

This would be very cool, but see Phil’s comment directly above re: the advantage of mirrorless cameras.

I’m sure that these features could be implemented, but it’s a trade off of resources. That is, the camera might get much more expensive (for what most would consider a niche feature), or the camera would work less well relative to its main design objective. (For example, if it paused after every long exposure to do dark frame subtraction.) Or in practical business terms, maybe Red would make less money per camera or have to employee more engineers—and only sell a few extra cameras.

All that said, if enough people want these features and are willing to pay for them, Red would probably be willing to do it.

360 shutter is kind of like a bulb setting. Just take your captured images and in post compound them with ADD/SUM in linear color space.

Monstro has the frame sum, frame average up to 16 frames in camera. But its, I'm told quite taxing on the hardware to run. I toasted my monstro that way and I'm still waiting to get it back from RED service. Apparently that's how the local service / rep guys test run the cameras as it's the most demanding task you can ask from the camera.

But yes pretty cool to do stuff like this straight in camera and just be able to hit play right after it captured:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=885828106595391

 

[Anton Shavlik]

The problem with long exposures is that hot pixels get extremely bad all over the image. You could have a blackshade for long exposures specifically but as I recall it didn't eliminate the hot pixels entirely. I guess the circuitry and processing is really fine tuned for shorter integration times.

Frame averaging or summing is still something you can do in post, though it's a lot of work, and there will still always be a 'blip' between frames as the sensor resets meaning motion blur will not be continuous, basically you can't get all the way to a 360 degree shutter. The nice thing about doing it in camera is it seemed to do the averaging in 16 bit before the compression and encoding, and so up to 16 frames were averaged and written as one in the file, saving space as well.

 

[PC Greene]

I have one as of earlier today. Shot about 5 hours worth of technical tests thus far, but breaking now for food, and will startup again after.

I'll be posting stuff as I discover/uncover things. But quickly I can say this is pretty incredible.

Excited to hear your thoughts Phil! In particular the published 20 stop dynamic range. Thank you as always for all you do for the community.

 

[Kevin Winzeler]

Pretty much the same as the v raptor.

I guess you're asking if the camera allows a recording frame rate of 5.99fps, which according to the manual it does. Phil has said that currently, 1/5.99 is the slowest shutter speed (unless I misunderstood him) which also means that 6fps is as low as it goes at this time.

No, I was asking if the shutter angle can now be changed 360 degrees at 6FPS. The current Raptor can do 6FPS, but only at 90 degree shutter. LIke the old RED's which others have mentioned used to have this feature. I use this frame rate and shutter angle on my Sony FX6 for shooting creative / dreamlike sequences at times and it's killing me that Raptor can't do this. The 360 shutter at anything between 3-12FPS is the key to what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for bulb or timelapse settings personally.

 

[rand thompson]

RED V-Raptor-X - EVF(s) - Questions and Answers - Everything You Need to Know​

By Scott Balkum

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Thank you for all these tests and answers Phil !

I'm also curious about bright colored highlights (typically red stop lights on cars, or Astera tubes), how does EH handle these ? Are you able to recover some better color information in these too ?

 

[JudgeNick]

More random ramblings about the X, just thinking things out. Keep in mind I don't necessarily know everything I'm talking about here, just reacting in real time as information becomes available. I am just SO HYPED for this camera.

 

[rand thompson]

V-RAPTOR [X] 8K VV | Official Introduction | #ShotonRED​

By
RED Digital Cinema

V-RAPTOR XL [X] | #ShotonRED​

By
RED Digital Cinema

 

[Russ Fill]

I might do that. I did a bunch of this when V-Raptor (rolling) was released in 2021. And yes, I am somebody who didn't sell my Monstros as it's the most flexible system and easy to turn that sucker into an IR or Full Spectrum camera.

First thanks Phil for all 2
And this is some of the same
Reason I kept my Monstro and use it all the time with V Raptors. New cameras are awesome but Monstro just keeps delivering.
I feel your on the right track that some more frame angle and slower speeds will probably come with upgrades. Is the Global Shutter tech friendlier for these frame rate adjustments like longer exposures/angles and things like summing or averaging. And is the sensor or capture still DCI??