RED V-Raptor [X] 8K VV

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I like Björn's theory on the phantom track. Looking forward to a deeper understanding of it, so I can experiment with and eventually exploit it. FWIW, I have shot 360° 48 fps to yield both a 24fps 180° version that cuts with "regular" footage, but can also support better time remapped and slomo sequences.

Cheers - #19

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Phil for all your hard work digging in to this stuff. Really fascinating to read it all. I would be curious, how is the EH handling flickering lights? Does that give any issues with the image?

So the interesting bit is we have Global Shutter here and flicker will occur on off frequency, but it seems for the whole frame. I have a weird strobe thing I'm testing today and that will help there. But my basic "standard source" answer is if the sensor experiences it with EH off, then EH on will. Same vice versa.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

So the interesting bit is we have Global Shutter here and flicker will occur on off frequency, but it seems for the whole frame. I have a weird strobe thing I'm testing today and that will help there. But my basic "standard source" answer is if the sensor experiences it with EH off, then EH on will. Same vice versa.

1-Do we still have black shading in the camera?
2-Speed Ramps! glad to have this back again. Have you done any tests? can you do 1fps to 120fps speed ramp?
3-Are there any shutter angle limitations when EH enabled?

Thank you, Phil!

 

[Phil Holland]

Cool. Would be interesting to see how it behaves in long exposure. Time-lapse / camera set to lowest possible frame rate then clap your hands infront of the soft box.

Another question does it have the frame sum and average recording functions like the DSMC2? Thinking if it can do HDRx it likely able to do that as well.

The difference between global shutter and rolling shutter when it comes to HDRx is the redraw time. Basically for rolling shutter, your x track becomes limited to be bigger than the redraw time and for global shutter that limitation is not there. but except for that it works quite the same.


I could not open the X test clips in flame. And in red cine I just found the EH on of type option. Is there any way to develop / render out the two passes?


And the phantom track... What you think about it? Is it not just recording in between frames. Kind of filming 48fps 360 shutter instead of 48fps 180. Then choose to view every second frame? I mean it must be something the regular raptor and all red cameras could do with the right firmware. Possibly not 180 deg on both frames as raptor is limited to almost 180 deg but still shooting the VR back screen bluescreen should be very possible with any of the cameras if using sync and double the frame rate, no?

Did more than clap my hands last night and that is the interesting bit. Waving objects at different speeds and motion types let's you know exactly how to use it and get the best out of it. I have that answer as of 5am last night. But I don't want to spoil it just yet.

No Frame Averaging or Summing in this version. Unknown if that comes back. I would enjoy both modes personally if they did.

Yes, the Global Shutter is one of the major reasons this is working "better".

SDK hasn't been released or hasn't been implemented. Don't know which, but 3rd party software as of today, nothing other than RCX works. That should happen quick-ish though. At least for a few majors.

I'll be testing Phantom Track today. The first good thing is it maintains the REDCODE Compression of HQ at speed for both slices. I will investigate the temporal stuff. I don't think other cameras have the hardware necessary to do that and likely not with the right boards to monitor both tracks. The global shutter is what makes this work "ideally" for virtual production and similar use cases. We already know this with a few years of Komodo becoming the bell of the ball on those dance floors.

 

[Phil Holland]

1-Do we still have black shading in the camera?
2-Speed Ramps! glad to have this back again. Have you done any tests? can you do 1fps to 120fps speed ramp?
3-Are there any shutter angle limitations when EH enabled?

Thank you, Phil!

1. Yes of course. All good cameras have some sort of Sensor Calibration. On Raptor and Raptor X it's less than 30 seconds. Far, far cry from the minimum of 8 minutes on DSMC2 Monstro.
2. Don't know where Speed Ramps came up. I'll see if there's anything in camera. With Raptor at 120fps at 8K and faster at lower resolutions, I generally do all of that in post for flexibility. i.e. film all at 120fps, then in post set ramp start/end.
3. Yes. Integration Time is required. At 24fps for instance instead of 1/24th-1/8000th, you get about 1/30th-1/587th. i.e. in that case 287 degrees by 16.4 degrees. Obviously this changes on frame rate, but that's the concept.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Sorry Phil if im wrong about Speed Ramping.I dont have the camera im just repeating what i saw on the Red.com page.

Maybe they are talking about in post speed ramping i dont know.

Are there any limitations for ISO when EH is enabled?
With V-Raptor -6 stop was usable can you say we didn't lose anything on shadow performance with global shutter?
Same for high ISOs..Are they at the same level as V-Raptor?

 

[MarkKilligan]

With V-Raptor -6 stop was usable can you say we didn't lose anything on shadow performance with global shutter?

This is what I'm interested in mostly, even though I only have the S35 version.

 

[rand thompson]

V-RAPTOR [X] 8K VV OPERATION GUIDE PDF​

Downloads By Product

www.red.com

 

[rand thompson]

RED V-RAPTOR [X] and XL [X]: Global Shutter without Compromise​

By BHPHOTOVIDEO

NEW EVF

RED's INCREDIBLE Full Frame Global Shutter Cinema Camera!! - RAPTOR [X] First Look​

By CVP

7 STOPS OVER EH OFF

7 STOPS OVER EH ON

RED V-Raptor-X and V-RaptorXL-X 8K 120fps Global Shutter Cinema Camera Announcement - World's First​

By Scott Balkum

What Makes the RED V-RAPTOR [X] So Fantastic? IMPRESSIONS Based on FACTS!​

By Carlos Quintero

RED's New 8K Global Shutter Camera | Unsensored Live​

By Brandon Washington

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Even the best Phase One camera can't give as much DR as the V-Raptor. And that's before EH is turned on. I wonder if perhaps photographers would sacrifice megapixels for latitude and frame rate.

 

[Remington Chase]

As the camera knows what is clipping it's unfortunate that with EH it can't only record the part of the frame that is clipped as that would drastically reduce the data. Kind of like some of those compression algorithms that reuse pixels that are not changing everything on the highlight track that is not clipped should just be black.

 

[Phil Holland]

Sorry Phil if im wrong about Speed Ramping.I dont have the camera im just repeating what i saw on the Red.com page.

Maybe they are talking about in post speed ramping i dont know.

Are there any limitations for ISO when EH is enabled?
With V-Raptor -6 stop was usable can you say we didn't lose anything on shadow performance with global shutter?
Same for high ISOs..Are they at the same level as V-Raptor?

Back after an evening of more tests and once again fueling via food stuffs briefly.

I think they are referencing speed-ramping in more of the up to 120fps at 8K potential. Higher fps at lower res too.

Raptor X without Extended Highlights and with (toggled) = no loss of data in shadows. No loss in shadows when comparing to Extended Highlights off either.

There is an new ISO ceiling of ISO 1600 in camera. This is mainly used to not clip the encoded linear data, that makes sense. With Extended Highlights on you seem to have precisely 4 stops of headroom. 3+ is what RED is quoted, which is a safe and reliable metric. Looking at my tests I have a few things that are at 4 stops, but I suspect some of that is intensity or color related and 3 is the reliable number. I can get the camera to clip still, but it does take some effort under controlled lighting and with a fast lens outdoors in days you certainly can.

 

[Phil Holland]

Even the best Phase One camera can't give as much DR as the V-Raptor. And that's before EH is turned on. I wonder if perhaps photographers would sacrifice megapixels for latitude and frame rate.

You will be delighted to know I am also exploring all of this as a stills workflow. With stills cameras you would bracket and blend to HDR and create an LDR tone mapped version. In practice this is performing as well as a 5 shot bracket in one stop increments if you want to think of it that way. Depending on the camera used, some allow for 1, 2, 3 or even more stops of bracketing. But in testing, some don't do well with such a broad spread in the blend due to a large variety of factors. I think potentially something like a 3 shot, 2 stop bracket also would do similarly. However, with more DR as a starting point, you'd have to use more frames on the still body to match.

Oddly I am testing that this week, which is a fringe use case for many of us, but considering that this is a high resolution sensor, it's a test worth doing.

 

[Phil Holland]

As the camera knows what is clipping it's unfortunate that with EH it can't only record the part of the frame that is clipped as that would drastically reduce the data. Kind of like some of those compression algorithms that reuse pixels that are not changing everything on the highlight track that is not clipped should just be black.

I think in this specific case you want about 6-7 stops of overlap to achieve the blend for 3+ stops. Truncating, or more accurately, clamping the data is certainly something that can be done, but I think in practice since you'll be able to pull the additional slice, it would be ideal to have the full exposure. But for bonus points, having that implemented and as an option would indeed save space.

It's early days, but there's other stuff that can be done here with a lot of this tech. I'm more curious if we get to go down these routes.

 

[JudgeNick]

Hey Phil, thanks for doing all this testing! It's extremely valuable to someone like me - I just bought the Raptor VV last month, but based on what I've already seen (from you, CVP, and RED itself), I'm definitely going to upgrade. One question though - have you found a definitive answer yet on how you feel about the new global sensor compared to the original VV sensor? That is, is it definitely a equivalent in the shadow stops? I think you mentioned earlier that you've been looking into precisely that question, but not sure if you've posted your final findings yet.

Here are my initial ramblings about why this camera excites me. I might be talking about it completely wrong, I'll admit I'm pretty caught up in the hype.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

So to be clear, is it a total redesigned sensor and not based on the Komodo-X sensor?

We speak about highlights (like Arri usually does) but It look like we lost a bit of lowlights wich was soo great on RED cameras (from Dragon to Monstro). Monstro is clean at 6400 iso with LLO for a 4k output.

Komodo-X looks like a 400-800 iso camera, the Raptor-X looks quite close to it.

 

[JudgeNick]

It look like we lost a bit of lowlights wich was soo great on RED cameras

Komodo-X looks like a 400-800 iso camera, the Raptor-X looks quite close to it.

Where are you getting that idea from? So far I haven’t seen anything to suggest Raptor X is a compromise in amy way compared to its predecessor.

 

[Ian D]

I have just looked through the manual and cannot see if I can do 1fps at 360 degree shutter. Would love to know if that is possible.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Back after an evening of more tests and once again fueling via food stuffs briefly.

I think they are referencing speed-ramping in more of the up to 120fps at 8K potential. Higher fps at lower res too.

Raptor X without Extended Highlights and with (toggled) = no loss of data in shadows. No loss in shadows when comparing to Extended Highlights off either.

There is an new ISO ceiling of ISO 1600 in camera. This is mainly used to not clip the encoded linear data, that makes sense. With Extended Highlights on you seem to have precisely 4 stops of headroom. 3+ is what RED is quoted, which is a safe and reliable metric. Looking at my tests I have a few things that are at 4 stops, but I suspect some of that is intensity or color related and 3 is the reliable number. I can get the camera to clip still, but it does take some effort under controlled lighting and with a fast lens outdoors in days you certainly can.

Have you run low light tests at high ISOs 3200 , 6400 and 12800 against OG Raptor? Like i said before Raptor was the best low-light camera (cinema line ) and hope this didn't change with the global shutter upgrade.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Impressed with what appears to be very good chroma tracking in CVP's +7 EH ON example. The subject's shirt hue is significantly shifted and desaturated with EH off - not surprising at 7 stops over - but with it on...

Cheers - #19