RED V-Raptor Versus V-Raptor XL

[Phil Holland]

Why not more? It's using what looks like a Monstro sensor variant (whose development costs are already paid off) with maybe double the readout channels and probably updated ADC and lower noise pipeline.

I literally can't get into specifics until I do my measured tests because I don't know hard numbers yet.

But I don't think you have a grasp on how sensor development works. This is the same sensor size and pixel pitch as Monstro, just like Dragon before it. But this is a wildly different sensor technology. I'm a big advocate actually the 5 micron pixel pitch for very film related reasons, something within 4-6 microns is rather ideal actually. There's clearly a reason RED is building on that and I suspect they have similar conclusion on that front. But critically there's some rather glaring differences between Monstro and the V-Raptor footage. Take a look at those TIFs I posted. They don't exactly look like anything RED has made before even when you get down to it.

I think that's going to be the talking point among discerning professionals during this release a whole bunch. I'm already having those conversations and it's a weird world we are in currently regarding that. I can make a Monstro sing beautiful music. But this is a new flagship sensor and it shows across in the image in a variety of ways even from mere moments with it. If it pans out that sensor is topping one the best sensors at the moment, that's news in this industry already. Prior to V-Raptor's release depending on who you talk to the best sensor is RED Monstro, Alexa LF, and Sony Venice. I enjoy the beer mug conversations regarding all that, most barely have done tests to derive their conclusions, which is fine. The cameras themselse and workflow play a big roll as well as the rental world. There's also a big difference between rental and owning those systems in how that pans out. One of the numerous reasons to test. I know all of those sensors grossly intimately as well as their strengths and weaknesses.

This clean with a new OLFP/CSF at 8K 120 in this format size in an actual RAW camera is very interesting. The noise floor is the very first thing I saw was different here and it's also having an impact on color response for the better, but this is the stuff I need to dive into.

I need to see what this thing does at 1600 and 3200 real bad.

I personally think Dual ISO is a 2010s thing, but it will obviously be around for a while. Far more interesting things to do with a sensor than that. A case example is Monstro has more dynamic range and is cleaner than Gemini, impressive considering the pixel size/well difference, but that makes sense in the camera lineup.

As for XL. Base price of $24.5K for V-Raptor. There's clearly accessories coming that get it closer to an XL, have no clue on the price of those. The body itself has more features. Thinking that lands between a $15-25K premium without knowing a damn thing beyond the drawings on the XL. Really impossible to land a real estimate. V-Raptor is already lower than I would have suspected.

 

[Bruce Allen]

But I don't think you have a grasp on how sensor development works. This is the same sensor size and pixel pitch as Monstro, just like Dragon before it. But this is a wildly different sensor technology. I'm a big advocate actually the 5 micron pixel pitch for very film related reasons, something within 4-6 microns is rather ideal actually. There's clearly a reason RED is building on that and I suspect they have similar conclusion on that front. But critically there's some rather glaring differences between Monstro and the V-Raptor footage. Take a look at those TIFs I posted. They don't exactly look like anything RED has made before even when you get down to it.

Oh! I thought you said it had very similar color to Monstro? I am basing my supposition on that.

If they fixed the OLPF and the color filters, I am way more interested. But then it wouldn't have similar color response.

I am actually strongly in favor of that because I don't like the old RED color much.

I will have to rent and test then, I'm far more interested now.

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Phil Holland]

Oh! I thought you said it had very similar color to Monstro?

You're right. I did say similar. I did not say the same. And there's more than color to IQ as a whole.

The OLPF is indeed totally different.

I'm a little fascinated by not liking RED color. There hasn't been issues on that front for a long, long time. Which is why you see even staunch Arri productions tapping into RED's occasionally. Particularly from Dragon onward. Pretty trivial to match these cameras at the end of the day in modern times. Only real fingerprints generally occur when you stress the image revealing a system's individual quirks pretty quickly. Those quirks are the things we don't talk about much publicly. But ideally the goal is to avoid them on all of the cameras.

I do have my list of mystery items referring to artifacts that all the current leading cameras have. Some of these have been greatly improved upon or solved over the years. But there's lingering ones that lead to costly VFX fixes or rely on temporal NR in camera to solve. Certain that's the stuff that haunts all the camera engineers at night.

In the case of V-Raptor, Komodo's new OLPF clearly has inspired what's going on here and I think part of the reason we aren't getting swappable OLPFs anymore. And I don't think anybody has noticed (likely a good thing), but you don't see CMOS Smear on Komodo for instance.

The only RED color I ever had issue with was M and MX era really, which you can see if you search through the ancient canals of this forum. The rest was the ensuing chaos of ND being messed up for a few years while manufacturers were working to solve that problem. Better in camera filtration and sensor tech helped, i.e. Dragon onward. We now have very, very good ND options on the market. There's still cameras with built in NDs I'll never use for a project out there. I'm real curious how the ND does here. My fingers are crossed and hopeful.

 

[Edward Saltau]

I just wrapped 9 months of helicopter aerials and it's a major part of the work I do on a yearly basis. Trust me, this is on my mind regarding the XL. Specifically because Ranger is too large for the F1 and if the XL is close to that size I'll be muttering in my sleep until I can figure out what's possible. I am hoping in every capacity the XL can fit in there. K1, not an issue.

In very remote areas we can land and swap out to a clear ND, but I 5000% want the ability to control ND and go to CLR in the air, especially for transitional work in major cities where time is tight during that light.

.

Isn’t the obvious solution just the V-Raptor with built in ND? Weird thing to me is that the smaller camera, more likely to be used on various gimbals and changing rigs constantly etc… isn’t that the camera more in need of NDs? Controlled lighting, production settings that the XL will thrive in… many will probably prefer a different method of achieving exposure.

I’ve really gone hard here but it’s because the camera is nearly perfect. Is incredibly frustrating.

 

[Bruce Allen]

YWhich is why you see even staunch Arri productions tapping into RED's occasionally. Particularly from Dragon onward. Pretty trivial to match these cameras at the end of the day in modern times.

I do agree it's relatively easy to match cameras! But I also think it's lighting / scene specific.

For example there are some really good LUTs to match the Panasonic S1H to the Alexa that I have used. Look at this - https://www.emotivecolor.com/detail
That Sony sensor the S1H and Mavo LF use is pretty easy to match to stuff.

The funny thing is that the one place they fall down it that for every different lighting setup, the Alexa skin just looks way better out of the box.

The way I know this is I just borrowed my buddy Macgregor's Alexa LF for a bunch of days and shot side by side a lot. I really wanted the S1H (and even cheaper S5) to compete. I tried ProRes RAW, everything. But it wasn't as good in so many ways.

You have to noodle around in Resolve for like 30min to make it match. And it's not like you can use the same powergrade. It varies depending on the lighting. Which leads me to believe that when you go back to the pure spectral response of the RGB bayer color filter itself, combined with the base color science, Arri solved it better across different lighting use cases. You can match but it's... fiddly.

Similarly, with a lot of Red vs Alexa tests where the RED fares really well, you can kinda tell the colorist just matched to the Alexa That's great... until you go out into the wild and start shooting with the RED and don't have that Alexa footage for reference!

In the case of V-Raptor, Komodo's new OLPF clearly has inspired what's going on here and I think part of the reason we aren't getting swappable OLPFs anymore. And I don't think anybody has noticed (likely a good thing), but you don't see CMOS Smear on Komodo for instance.

That's really good info!

The only RED color I ever had issue with was M and MX era really, which you can see if you search through the ancient canals of this forum. The rest was the ensuing chaos of ND being messed up for a few years while manufacturers were working to solve that problem. Better in camera filtration and sensor tech helped, i.e. Dragon onward. We now have very, very good ND options on the market. There's still cameras with built in NDs I'll never use for a project out there. I'm real curious how the ND does here. My fingers are crossed and hopeful.

Yes and I agree your list of good FSNDs has been very helpful! Beers are owed.

Interesting to see if RED and Kinefinity can nail the internal e-ND. Funny that Kinefinity Edge's motorized clear and e-ND design is actually launching first! But hey let's see how it works in practice.

My primary issue with the RED is usually skintones and reds. I know historically it was a lot worse. Im the beginning, it almost felt like RED were relying on bad color filters that allowed a lot of crosstalk through just to boost their signal to noise ratio and DR numbers (hey if you sneak in a little extra IR and a little extra red into your color response you get a cleaner signal if a more impure one since these CMOS sensors are basically heat seeking missiles...). I was always a fan of skin tone highlight myself.

Anyway thank you for the info on the OLPF, that is very good news.

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Phil Holland]

Isn’t the obvious solution just the V-Raptor with built in ND? Weird thing to me is that the smaller camera, more likely to be used on various gimbals and changing rigs constantly etc… isn’t that the camera more in need of NDs? Controlled lighting, production settings that the XL will thrive in… many will probably prefer a different method of achieving exposure.

I’ve really gone hard here but it’s because the camera is nearly perfect. Is incredibly frustrating.

I understand the sentiment and feels, but it will have NDs via the mount adapter. Likely the same technology. The only thing we don't know is how we can control them. XL has buttons, which makes one assume we can tackle it remotely. Regular V-Raptor is an unknown.

The decision likely came down to size and cost, the usual reasons. Also likely dealing with a different sort of mounting system for lenses at that point resulting in a differently sized camera for sure. And I see value to RF and potentially to autofocus for many. Jarred is right regarding the new Canon optics being rather good, though not dedicated cinema glass (yet). Nearly feels like the semi-war of EF versus PL before there were a lot of PL options. Now there's a lot of PL options, but now new and good RF optics. I have a fast VV RF lens here for instance that wouldn't be possible on even EF or PL, actually there's something close, but it's $50K. Will post about that in a few days btw.

Some additional thoughts really. Optics of all sorts play a role here, literal and figurative. Talking to lens companies, they don't think people who use a $25K camera use lenses that cost $35K per lens. They feel it's not the same market and to an extent they are right, but at the same time are extremely wrong. Productions and people tap into and rent whatever they can or want to use. The lens world as a whole is dominated by Canon EF glass or glass that can be adapted to EF. All the mirrorless stuff is a rapidly growing market and obviously a trend. We haven't even seen what RF-Cine looks like yet, but I'm betting people will want to use something like that. PL lens market has grown astronomically mainly due to the now broad range of prices and lenses now. Though even I shoot on PL most of the time, I still understand a lot of the market does not. Many people who own cameras, even pricier ones keep things like EF Primes or adapted Nikons or Leicas around and rent when jobs come in. At a minimum at this point there's good affordable glass in PL I would suggest just owning to have anyways even if it doesn't rent out, but that's a personal take.

I've learned a lot about our expanding industry over the years and a lot of it comes down the minutiae of studios, rental houses, versus production companies, versus owner/operators, and at the back end hobbyists/enthusiasts. All of them own gear and rent gear to others or keep it in house. If you are purchasing the highest echelon of cinema glass today you are very likely a rental house, a very successful production company, or a very wealthy person. A very interesting divide and union occurs between what is the mass market and what people would consider in the commercial market. Most premium lens sets out exist in the 50-400 set range as that is what the market supported. It's now possible to release a PL lens set or even more affordable zooms somehow for under $10K and move thousands of sets rapidly.

The market tiers/segments are highly relevant to how manufacturers price and plan their releases for all of the products we use on a daily basis. We just went through a year of entry level professional cameras. Now we are getting to the bigger boy tools.

This reminds me of our old SALT lens shootouts when trying to figure out how all the lenses perform against each other. For some the cost difference for say Xeens versus Sigmas or say Tokinas is too great, but for others they'll rationalize the expense because they can afford it or want the glass bad enough to commit in that way. Meanwhile the cinema lens industry doesn't want those lenses used on commercials or films. But they you find very prominent cinematographers using them on there $200m film and it breaks the machine people want you to exist in.

Not knowing the price of the new cameras coming up benefits me a bit, but I suspect with V-Raptor, non-XL, being priced here it's going to be a moderate war once again on the camera-side. The hard truth from a rental house perspective is you make the most profit off the highest ticket items often in the shortest amount of time. But occasionally you have lenses or even cameras that outperform something 2-5X as much and screws things up to a certain extent. A good example was my last shoot where I paired Fujinon Premistas which are $50K a pop with Tokina Cinema Vistas which are sub-$8K a lens. Multi-million dollar production. Rented the Premistas, rented the production my Tokinas.

This will be interesting as we all figure out the day rates the market will accept for all the new cameras, the gap between V-Raptor and VRXL, and other variables we don't really know yet.

Sorry, that was off topic, but it is related in some way. I'm also in an airport with time to kill.

 

[Mark K.]

Ii bet XL will be around 55'000.--

I hope not. Assuming it’s going to offer the same internals, I don’t know how many people will be willing to drop an additional $30,000 just for internal NDs, three additional SDI ports and a couple more AUX power ports.

People pay for convenience, but only to a point.

 

[Edward Saltau]

Sorry, that was off topic, but it is related in some way. I'm also in an airport with time to kill.

I get you and appreciate the thoughts but sometimes it feels like red and perhaps you here are just overthinking it. The camera would be a no brainer for what I have to assume is a significant number of people if it had NDs. The mount not so much, whilst it should be adaptable, it’s more of an annoyance to me. I don’t understand how it’s an advantageous mount from a marketing perspective but I’m not in marketing so I’ll let that pass.

So to be really simple about the mount and filter issues. Red has been big into the wildlife industry in the last few months. Talking to most cinematographers and production houses. Offering help and asking for input. And then to produce this cam that has an obvious flaw. That flaw being that no RF - PL adapter currently allows the lens to be powered by the camera. Or data to be passed back to the camera from the lens. Both crucial when operating the canon CN20, which is essentially THE wildlife lens used in 90% of wildlife filming. Perhaps the red mount does this, but the ND doesn’t go to clear. Not something that can be changed in certain situations (sensitive animal event, in shotover etc…)

Basically, I sincerely hope that there’s a future V-Raptor with interchangeable mounts and built in ND. Charge significantly more for it if necessary, at least it will be a complete camera for many, including my needs. It will be the go to long lens cam for wildlife, it will be amazing on handheld gimbals, and it will work perfectly on the Shotover M1 with the CN20.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts on this and I’ll let it go now and wait and see what develops over the coming months.

 

[Mark Andersen]

They clearly made the choice based on data rates and likely what existed at the time. Perhaps a power draw consideration in there too for Komodo. Raptor is nearly 3X the data rates of Komodo and anything DSMC3 to achieve 8K 120 and subsequent ratios related to framerate and resolution.

Should also be noted that the CFx cards Raptor needs literally are coming out right this second, it's ideally wanting the newer and faster CFx Type B 2.0 cards. 1000MB/s is no joke in cards that small. Most CFast sustained drops below 300MB/s. It's also the difference in interface, SATA versus PCI-e 3.0. Two very different planets.

Will be interesting to test older CFx cards, but I suspect buffer interrupts or record stoppage. Some cards I tested crap out around 600MB/s in the past.

I'm waiting to hear hard numbers, but it seems when the foot is on the gas for this camera it's drawing 90-100 watts per hour as well. DSMC2 is 60Wh, Komodo is half of that. This is actually on my mind a lot right now. Have a feeling I'll be investing in some large capacity bricks soon. 2-3 hours is the sweet spot for me when it comes to camera uptime for on set work. Probably a 3 prong approach of 98Wh, 150Wh, and a few big bricks in the 300Wh range. I own mostly 98 and 150.

I just picked up some Core Nano 150s, nice a small with travel safe 150 power. Seemed to me like the sweet spot.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

With a lens the size of the CN20, I feel like you're mounting the camera to the lens - not the lens to the camera. On that note, perhaps a custom plate that supports both camera and lens - with primary mounting hardware at the balance point would alleviate the torque on the RF to EF or PL adapter enough to keep it from flexing. Most existing support plates for larger cinema glass are silly heavy for wildlife applications. Since REDs are not the only camera bodies that have gotten smaller and lighter, perhaps a composite or titanium plate for lightweight long lens support is in order.

FWIW, the VRXL looks like a treat for a lot of productions. If the price is under $40K, I'll order day one.

Cheers - #19

 

[Mark K.]

Here's an interesting little thing (since I have WAY too much time on my hands in lockdown).

This is an overlay of the "XL" body, on top of a little Sony FX6 (that's been rigged out for conventional production work).

The Sony is a TINY camera, so small that it's really difficult to rig cleanly. And the "XL" is basically going to be exactly the same size as an FX6 (with a top plate, 15mm baseplate and external battery plate - all of which are essentials for conventional production).

Doesn't seem so "XL" any more.

 

[Russ Fill]

Does anyone feel or think that the XL will have other frame rates than we are seeing with the new Raptor? Or maybe a few other compression rates or selectable compressions.
Just wondering if anyone has knowledge of whats possible with a larger camera body and maybe a little more horsepower under the hood.

 

[Ian D]

Me too Russ. Also it seems the xl is not far off the size of dsmc 2 body. Is my thinking right on that?

 

[Russ Fill]

Does anyone feel or think that the XL will have other frame rates than we are seeing with the new Raptor? Or maybe a few other compression rates or selectable compressions.
Just wondering if anyone has knowledge of whats possible with a larger camera body and maybe a little more horsepower under the hood.

After looking around a bit it seems that where the Raptor is as far as processing power and write speeds its maxed out for current tech.. maybe Im missing something but that doesn't seem like the XL will have many if any other image options only hardware, so its able to work easier with all the camera support systems.

 

[Phil Holland]

In my mind XL is to V-Raptor as Ranger is to DSMC2. If that's the recipe, addition frame rates aren't really what the camera is about, but the feature set is more production minded for certain types of shoots.

The big ones that are visible in the drawing that I think are critical are:
- FIZ Front Facing Power Solution
- Extra Monitor I/O
- Built in Mechanical Switching ND
- More robust cooling
- Extra I/O in general
- Extra User Customizable Keys
- Built in Rosettes
- Tally Light
- Focus Hook

Some of those features productions have come to rely on for their day in and day out package. This comes at a cost however, beyond price, XL is notably larger than V-Raptor.

XL clearly how 2X antennas and I'm wondering just what that provides.

My biggest question right now surrounding V-Raptor and the XL is what sort of EVF solution or solutions we'll be looking at here. Front facing SDI on the XL is nice, but I would like something that can tap into the USB-C based tech that the small camera will rely on. And ideally both LCD and EVF can function at the same time.

I've already made a hardcore strategy call regarding how I'll be investing in my future systems leading into Q1 2022, last couple weeks have been a mind bender. But at the moment this is the biggest need and unknown for me surrounding DSMC3. Existing DSMC2 base plates and such should be compatible with XL.

We can also assume XL can use "all sized" V-Mounts, but it's unclear what voltage is needed to run it. That is on my mind as well.

 

[Björn Benckert]

In my mind XL is to V-Raptor as Ranger is to DSMC2. If that's the recipe, addition frame rates aren't really what the camera is about, but the feature set is more production minded for certain types of shoots.

The big ones that are visible in the drawing that I think are critical are:
- FIZ Front Facing Power Solution
- Extra Monitor I/O
- Built in Mechanical Switching ND
- More robust cooling
- Extra I/O in general
- Extra User Customizable Keys
- Built in Rosettes
- Tally Light
- Focus Hook

Some of those features productions have come to rely on for their day in and day out package. This comes at a cost however, beyond price, XL is notably larger than V-Raptor.

XL clearly how 2X antennas and I'm wondering just what that provides.

My biggest question right now surrounding V-Raptor and the XL is what sort of EVF solution or solutions we'll be looking at here. Front facing SDI on the XL is nice, but I would like something that can tap into the USB-C based tech that the small camera will rely on. And ideally both LCD and EVF can function at the same time.

I've already made a hardcore strategy call regarding how I'll be investing in my future systems leading into Q1 2022, last couple weeks have been a mind bender. But at the moment this is the biggest need and unknown for me surrounding DSMC3. Existing DSMC2 base plates and such should be compatible with XL.

We can also assume XL can use "all sized" V-Mounts, but it's unclear what voltage is needed to run it. That is on my mind as well.

To me EVFS are nice. but I kind of like the flip screen of the arris, I would not mind instead of having one screen and a EVF have two screens and one with some sort of loupe on it.

I mashed up this sun hood thing in fusion 360 and thinking of making something similar but with a loupe. As having two monitors where one can turn into a EVF I kind of find more useful than having a EVF and a screen.


https://syndicate.se/product/carbon-clay-sun-hood-for-red-7-touch-screen/

 

[Ryan Chernin]

To me EVFS are nice. but I kind of like the flip screen of the arris, I would not mind instead of having one screen and a EVF have to screen and one with a sort of loupe on it.

I mashed up this hood thing in fusion 360 and thinking of making something similar but with a loupe for the DSMC2 touch screen. As having to monitors where one can turn into a EVF I kind of find more useful than having a EVF and a screen.


https://syndicate.se/product/carbon-clay-sun-hood-for-red-7-touch-screen/

Exactly!!! This right here, x100.

I've been secretly hoping that SmallHD updates their Sidefinder in conjunction with Red for these new camera releases.

 

[Russ Fill]

I actually would like to see something similar to the Arri VF with the screen integrated in to the viewfinder with some controls.

 

[Brody_B]

I actually would like to see something similar to the Arri VF with the screen integrated in to the viewfinder with some controls.

+1.

 

[Russ Fill]

And one more request about the EVF. That it might be backwards compatible with DSMC2 cameras. That would sell a few more than just Raptor folks.
Id imagine that if it were a flip out small screen controller type of EVF and worked on Raptor and DSMC2's youd please a lot of folks.