Red V Raptor Rhino S35 Camera

[Osman F Arslan]

Hi,
I just got an email from Filmtools saying that there is a new V Raptor S35 camera is coming up. I haven't been able to find this info anywhere online. I wanted to post it here to see if it is true. If it is true, what dis your opinion about it? Thanks.

Sensor Specs SENSOR V-RAPTOR™ 8K S35 35.4 Megapixel CMOS EFFECTIVE PIXELS 8192 (h) x 4320 (v) SENSOR SIZE 26.21 mm x 13.82 mm (Diagonal: 29.63 mm) DYNAMIC RANGE 16.5+ stops Lens Mount MOUNT TYPE Integrated RF mount with RF lens support Supports Canon EF lenses via compatible Canon RF to EF mount adapters Accepts other Canon RF mount-based lens adaptors for diverse lens choices Recording MAX DATA RATES Up to 800 MB/s using RED branded or other qualified CFexpress media cards REDCODE® RAW MAX FRAME RATES 120 fps at 8K 17:9 (8192 x 4320), 150 fps at 8K 2.4:1 (8192 x 3456) 140 fps at 7K 17:9 (7168 x 3780), 175 fps at 7K 2.4:1 (7168 x 3024) 160 fps at 6K 17:9 (6144 x 3240), 200 fps at 6K 2.4:1 (6144 x 2592) 192 fps at 5K 17:9 (5120 x 2700), 240 fps at 5K 2.4:1 (5120 x 2160) 240 fps at 4K 17:9 (4096 x 2160), 300 fps at 4K 2.4:1 (4096 x 1728) 320 fps at 3K 17:9 (3072 x 1620), 400 fps at 3K 2.4:1 (3072 x 1296) 480 fps at 2K 17:9 (2048 x 1080), 600 fps at 2K 2.4:1 (2048 x 864) PLAYBACK FRAME RATES (PROJECT TIME BASE) 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, 60 fps, all resolutions BEST AVAILABLE REDCODE® SETTINGS REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 8K 17:9 (8192 x 4320) up to 60 fps REDCODE LQ at 8K 17:9 (8192 x 4320) up to 120 fps REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 6K 17:9 (6144 x 3240) up to 96 fps REDCODE MQ and LQ at 6K 17:9 (6144 x 3240) up to 160 fps REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 4K 17:9 (4096 x 2160) up to 240 fps REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 2K 17:9 (2048 x 1080) up to 480 fps

 

[rand thompson]

Osman,

Thanks for this info!!

The sensor appears smaller than the ALEXA 35 in 4.6K 16:9 mode

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - ARRI Alexa 35 4.6K 16:9 & RED V-Raptor 8K VV 8K 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

 

[Osman F Arslan]

Osman,

Thanks for this info!!

No problem, Rand. I was trying to find a way to delete this post, as it seems like people already were aware of an S35 camera coming up from RED. However, I still can't find anything online about Rhino. So this may be the news for a lot of people. Maybe it is ok to keep the post. I couldn't figure out how to delete it anyway.

 

[rand thompson]

No problem, Rand. I was trying to find a way to delete this post, as it seems like people already were aware of an S35 camera coming up from RED. However, I still can't find anything online about Rhino. So this may be the news for a lot of people. Maybe it is ok to keep the post. I couldn't figure out how to delete it anyway.

Osman,

I think some of what you posted may have been known but not all of it. I haven't seen the sensor dimensions listed anywhere else. If you still want to delete the thread you can just request that one of the moderators do it for you whenever they may have the time.

 

[Osman F Arslan]

Osman,

I think some of what you posted may have been known but not all of it. I haven't seen the sensor dimensions listed anywhere else. If you still want to delete the thread you can just request that one of the moderators do it for you whenever they may have the time.

You are right Rand. I can't find that info anywhere else too. I will keep it unless the moderators think it is unnecessary. The body is $19500 by the way.

 

[rand thompson]

You are right Rand. I can't find that info anywhere else too. I will keep it unless the moderators think it is unnecessary. The body is $19500 by the way.

They may have it listed in one of the Red facebook groups but I don't use or visit Facebook that much. Thanks again for posting it!

 

[Phil Holland]

The sensor is "a hair" wider than S35 3-perf at 8K 17:9.

http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...=Kodak&modelB=Film&formatB=Super 35mm 3-Perf&

The main reason I imagine for this direction is extreme cross compatibility with all S35 glass. For those familiar with Dragon 6K versus 5K filming to accommodate the image circle/diagonal for various lenses, that seems to be the influence here. Also a welcome boost to long lens natural history filmmakers on that front.

And for VV and S35, 5K on the VV is about 8K on the S35:
https://phfx.com/tools/formatCompar...V-Raptor+8K+S35&formatB=8K+17:9&focalLengths=

 

[Jon Dishler]

Osman,

Thanks for this info!!

The sensor appears smaller than the ALEXA 35 in 4.6K 16:9 mode

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - ARRI Alexa 35 4.6K 16:9 & RED V-Raptor 8K VV 8K 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

Exactly the same size frame in Alexa 35 in 4.6k as the Helium in 8k HD, I didn't realize that. Like exactly, but the Helium has 3X the resolution.

 

[rand thompson]

Jon,

You're exactly right! I didn't realize that until you just mentioned it!

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - RED Helium 8K S35 8K HD & ARRI Alexa 35 4.6K 16:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

 

[rand thompson]

NEW RED Digital Cinema V-Raptor S35 Rhino Edition Just Released! What You Need To Know.

by Scott Balkum

Price $19,500

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Super 35 is alive!

But we all knew it wasn't going away.

 

[Phil Holland]

Super 35 is alive!

I don't know who started the chatter of S35 being dead, but it grew across the industry. Here and abroad I was sort of laughing about all that. I think it was more do to the prevalence and growth of digital really. Film-wise, we've had all these formats and more for a very, very long time. As I've said before, digital is just new getting to that format flexibility in the last 5-10 years. The FUD was probably enhanced a bit by a few years of new LFs from ARRI with no new S35 movement for a bit. As far as I know the new ARRI S35 had development origins in 2017/2018 for those in the know. RED even with VV's announcement in 2015 committed to S35 and I think this has been the best showing for filmmakers and today is no different.

S8, S16, S35, VV, 65, 70. Don't know if we need to cover all those formats in digital, especially if you design things nicely with a multiformat mindset. RED's clearly been designing things with that mindset as their pixel pitch seems to be fairly film inspired when it comes to formats.

I think one of the cooler things the new S35 can do is 4K for Super 16mm coverage.
https://phfx.com/tools/formatCompar...&modelB=Film&formatB=Super+16mm&focalLengths=

 

[Brian Roberts]

On very first blush, I don't quite understand it. Outside of someone who is looking to maximize the sensor size natively while using super 35 lenses...why?

The pixel pitch is way tighter than the VV iteration, leading to decreased dynamic range and noise performance, as far as I know the sensor is not global like Komodo, it's only what, $5K cheaper than the VV?

Am I missing something?

Please understand that I'm not throwing shade here...I just don't quite understand why I would buy one of these over the VV V-Raptor, or even Komodo if we're comparing relative value.

 

[Phil Holland]

understand

I'm a multi-format sort of fellow and this is exactly the same as Monstro versus Helium debate. Now it's just Raptor VV versus S35.

The big consideration is glass and format. There are lots of S35 only optics out there that DPs choose to film with. On Raptor VV those are usually worked with around 5K and 6K at max. With Raptor S35 you have 8K resolution and some nice trickle down formats that are exciting.

V-Raptor 8K S35 Film Relevance
- 8K = Super 35mm 3-Perf (max fps 120)
- 4K = Super 16 (max fps 240)
- 2K = Super 8mm (max fps 480)

Because the slightly smaller pixel pitch than Helium you'll be able to use lenses for all of these formats with no coverage issues that I can think of.

I'm certain VV is still the flagship in DR and all that. But there's lots of rental houses and filmmakers who are heavily invested in S35 glass.

I'll go one step deeper. In Japan, a boatload of Helium were brought over for 8K Olympics coverage during 2020, though the pandemic interrupted that. There's now S35 Broadcast Lenses and V-Raptor very recently can be configured with accessories to handle 8K streaming and you have 4K straight out the SDI already. Interesting potential on that front.

But the real one, at least to natural history filmmakers that I speak with is working that long lens. Using the S35 with a 300mm you'd need about a 470mm lens. Take into account there aren't exactly a lot of f/2.8 470mm lenses out there (but some banging 400mm options!) and light gathering a valuable concept. Similarly wide angle tends to be easier to handle on VV than S35 in terms of quality of optics and options available.

Komodo has it's global shutter, but it certainly can't do 8K 120fps and doesn't have the host of other features of the larger bodies.

To wrap that up. I'm certain, just like before, the choice between VV and S35 will keep some up and night. For others they know what they want/need/desire.

 

[rand thompson]

Phil,

Thanks for updating the "FORMATCOMPARE" Tool so fast!

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - RED V-Raptor 8K VV 8K 17:9 & RED V-Raptor 8K S35 8K 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - RED V-Raptor 8K S35 8K 17:9 & ARRI Alexa 35 4.6K 16:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - RED V-Raptor 8K S35 8K 17:9 & RED Komodo 6K 6K 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

S8, S16, S35, VV, 65, 70. Don't know if we need to cover all those formats in digital,

Probably not. To be generous to film, you can halve the surface area for the same results if you want to shoot digital instead. So 8-perf 35 can be replace by S35 digital (for the most part). And 8mm means very little in a digital world, because you don't need a sensor that small to have a small camera.

Digital killed the extremes, basically.

Try shooting birds, or very small things, or things very far away, as photographers do a lot, with a 36mm sensor on a Sony A1 or whatever. It's doable but not as efficiently as with a Micro 4/3 system. And 1:1 macro means very different things on an A1 vs a GH6. Just wait until Olympus releases its 4x macro lens - 36mm systems cannot compete with that.

 

[rand thompson]

B&HPhotoVideo Page

RED DIGITAL CINEMA V-RAPTOR RHINO 8K S35 Camera 710-0372 B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

 

[Zack Birlew]

On very first blush, I don't quite understand it. Outside of someone who is looking to maximize the sensor size natively while using super 35 lenses...why?

The pixel pitch is way tighter than the VV iteration, leading to decreased dynamic range and noise performance, as far as I know the sensor is not global like Komodo, it's only what, $5K cheaper than the VV?

Am I missing something?

Please understand that I'm not throwing shade here...I just don't quite understand why I would buy one of these over the VV V-Raptor, or even Komodo if we're comparing relative value.

Brian, in this instance it is very much about the lenses! With a S35 sensor, you get the convenience of a nice Tamron 18-400mm lens or the famously awesome Sigma 18-35/50-100 1.8 ART zoom combo and then there's always the Tokina 11-16/11-20 to back up the wide end. With full frame you have to give up the convenience and speed for pricier options that can't quite replace those S35 options.

I can understand the need for a nicer S35 option than the Komodo but the "Rhino" may be riding too closely to the high end versus the midpoint it would have fared better in price-wise (as I suggested a more nostalgic $17,500 price point in another thread) but I'm not personally interested in any other S35 camera outside the Blackmagic Ursa 12K so it's not a model for me in any case.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I'm a multi-format sort of fellow and this is exactly the same as Monstro versus Helium debate. Now it's just Raptor VV versus S35.

The big consideration is glass and format. There are lots of S35 only optics out there that DPs choose to film with. On Raptor VV those are usually worked with around 5K and 6K at max. With Raptor S35 you have 8K resolution and some nice trickle down formats that are exciting.

V-Raptor 8K S35 Film Relevance
- 8K = Super 35mm 3-Perf (max fps 120)
- 4K = Super 16 (max fps 240)
- 2K = Super 8mm (max fps 480)

Because the slightly smaller pixel pitch than Helium you'll be able to use lenses for all of these formats with no coverage issues that I can think of.

I'm certain VV is still the flagship in DR and all that. But there's lots of rental houses and filmmakers who are heavily invested in S35 glass.

I'll go one step deeper. In Japan, a boatload of Helium were brought over for 8K Olympics coverage during 2020, though the pandemic interrupted that. There's now S35 Broadcast Lenses and V-Raptor very recently can be configured with accessories to handle 8K streaming and you have 4K straight out the SDI already. Interesting potential on that front.

But the real one, at least to natural history filmmakers that I speak with is working that long lens. Using the S35 with a 300mm you'd need about a 470mm lens. Take into account there aren't exactly a lot of f/2.8 470mm lenses out there (but some banging 400mm options!) and light gathering a valuable concept. Similarly wide angle tends to be easier to handle on VV than S35 in terms of quality of optics and options available.

Komodo has it's global shutter, but it certainly can't do 8K 120fps and doesn't have the host of other features of the larger bodies.

To wrap that up. I'm certain, just like before, the choice between VV and S35 will keep some up and night. For others they know what they want/need/desire.

I think the real question is is how good is the sensor, what is the usable max ISO and how does it handle highlights as well as the shadow detail. I think those two issues are really important to us. Any Wildlife folks I talk to want excelent highlight handling and also high ISO. One thing that we learned when Monstro came to market was it's large sensor size was excelent for the large image circle that macro scopes offered, which is one reason V Raptor's large sensor was very welcome. Im sure this new camera will be good, but Id like to know how good.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

My suggestion was that this camera should land at around $12500 when people speculated about it. I'm not sure why someone would choose this over the VV Raptor seeing as the price difference is so small. For rental of course it makes sense to have both VV and s35, but since the Arri s35 is out, I have a hard time seeing this being picked for VFX heavy shoots over the VV (since a larger sensor gives better pixels) and for anything else, the Arri is already having a sensor with superior image quality.

And the fact that this news didn't even break on the recon page, that's proof enough that Red just doesn't care about Reduser anymore. It's all social media marketing now. We're at a breaking point now where I think Red has stagnated because improvements are so incremental and the only way to push tech is to lower prices. Since that's not happening here, I'm wondering where Red will be in five years from now.

Is it worth investing in Raptor if you already have a DSMC2 and a Komodo? What's the actual benefit? Seen through the lens of the trash economy the world is in right now, what's the actual benefit for creators? With the change to compression type, the older DSMC2s will be cheaper to use and there's no way near that big of a difference between DSMC2 and Raptor to make an impact on the productions being made.

Raptor is a good alternative to Phantom, but for normal productions, what's actually a gain here? Especially compared to the Arris new s35 when just speaking about image quality.