Red V Raptor Rhino S35 Camera

[Michael Hastings]

snip:

- something no CEO of any other major camera manufacturer does as regularly as Jarred, if at all!

I've seen this said many times, and it is kind of silly. Do you expect the CEO of Sony with $84 billion in revenue to be as accessible as the CEO of a niche manufacturer with around $150 million revenue? Product managers at Sony have bigger businesses and they do have seminars and other meetings with creators, although maybe not on Facebook/Instagram. And Grant Petty of BMD ($500+ million) does regular videos explaining products and is very accessible at NAB and probably other shows that I don't attend regularly.

 

[Les Hillis]

Nothing wrong with Jon expressing his appreciation of Jarreds engagement with the community. Better than hearing again the claims from the RED-hating trolls that it's all just a marketing ploy and we're all suckers for falling for it. The comparisons to the way other companies operate are valid imo. They're all free to choose how they run their businesses and interact with their customers.

Back on topic, it's good to see some changes have been made to the DSMC3 version of the RED 8K S35 sensor. I'm still seeing stuff from the Helium sensor that leaves me with the totally biased opinion it's the best S35-sized sensor ever put in a camera, so it'll be interesting see how the new sensor performs in more detail.

 

[Michael Hastings]

snip:
Back on topic, it's good to see some changes have been made to the DSMC3 version of the RED 8K S35 sensor. I'm still seeing stuff from the Helium sensor that leaves me with the totally biased opinion it's the best S35-sized sensor ever put in a camera, so it'll be interesting see how the new sensor performs in more detail.

I would be curious to hear your opinion on this.

I sold my Epic-W brain for about $15K before the price drops anticipating going to Komodo but the wait in line got so long I bought an R5. But I still have DSMC2 housings and a bunch of DSMC2 accessories so with the current used prices so low I might buy another one.

Generally speaking for underwater use, the smaller sensor is an advantage in that the greater DOF tends to sharpen up the corners when using dome ports (which are like big negative diopters). Low light capability isn't as big an issue as people think since a typical 60 foot dive in clear water is probably at F8/11. Shots at night or poor visibility probably require lights anyway, and we have extremely powerful underwater video lights available now.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Seriously? 100%? He keeps going on and on about the ARRI Alexa 35 - an $80,000 camera with prohibitively expensive proprietary media and a 4.6K sensor - and the Phantom, which neither the Alexa nor the RED are replacements for.

I'm speaking of the top industry, where the incremental image quality matters but a camera's cost doesn't. Raptor is a good alternative to Phantom shoots that's done on the low end of its capability. Why hire a Phantom for a 250 fps shoot when you have a Raptor? And for s35mm shoots, why would anyone hire the Rhino Raptor over the Alexa s35, have you ever seen what that sensor produces or just looked at the specs and proclaimed it to be subpar?

So that's what's going on at rental and the top industry productions. So then, what is reasonable for lower-end productions? If you're an owner-operator, what's the reasonable investment and financial balance sheet for people wanting to up their image quality? Of course, the Alexa 35mm doesn't make sense here, nor does the Phantom, but if framerates aren't a crucial part of the business, the incremental improvement over the top DSMC2 models doesn't make much sense.

Whom I'm talking about are not newcomers to Red, I'm talking about people who's been owning Reds for years and constantly jump onto upgrades because previously the upgrades have made sense, huge improvements generation by generation.

But this time, it's not huge anymore, so can you describe just how well thought through of an investment it is to re-invest in not just a new camera brain, but an entire infrastructure once more for production outputs that never hit top streaming quality or IMAX? The DSMC2 system is already extremely overkill for anything but high-end cinema, while other companies are on the brink of delivering close to Red's output quality for a fraction of even the DSMC2's costs, while Komodo can cover any lightweight body demands needed for a Red production.

I mean, do people just want "more more more" without even thinking about if it's a reasonable investment or not?

I also fail to see how not making a massive announcement on Reduser equates to not caring about users: I don't know of a single other CEO who spends as much time answering questions, listening to feedback and talking camera development with DPs as does Jarred. He spoke for nearly three hours this morning with Scott Balkum and viewers about the camera, fielding questions about future firmware updates for the Komodo and V-Raptor, the V-Raptor s35 XL, menus, autofocus, dual card slots, Canon L-series lenses that GDU might consider rehousing, focus motors, electronic ND adapters, HDRx, issues with third party monitors and a bunch of other topics - something no CEO of any other major camera manufacturer does as regularly as Jarred, if at all!

Yeah, and this is what I mean with social media marketing. Many of us here have been members since 2007 or even 2006 when Red was considered "vaporware". What I'm speaking about, which you don't have an experience with since you joined this forum in 2021, is how this forum was a core part of the Red infrastructure up until sometime around the launch of Komodo. You haven't been around when we as a community here on Reduser together with Red had deep conversations about Red's cameras, seeing actual improvements and ideas play out.

It was a seriously unique thing in the industry that was nowhere to be found and the fact that the new Rhino Raptor hasn't even been mentioned on the recon page is a clear sign that this forum has been abandoned in favor of social media marketing through influencers rather than the community discussions that existed before.

I understand that you don't understand any of this because you weren't part of it when it was going on, but this is what I'm referring to and why I'm saddened to see this community being left behind in favor of the hell that is Facebook pages as its successor. I wished you had been around before so you'd know what I'm talking about.

From what I'm seeing, the Raptor VV has got more latitude than the Gemini, so not sure how you can claim that the only difference is frame rates. Asking why you should purchase a Raptor when you say you don't need 8K or VV is like someone asking why they should get a Sony a1 if they're happy with their a6400 and ____ [fill in the blank with any camera of your choosing] - no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. You may not appreciate an outstanding cinema camera that records 8K s35 RedCode RAW, but wildlife photographers certainly will.

The "no one is forcing anyone to buy anything" argument generally becomes an empty argument since the one using that premise essentially uses it as an argument for buying it. Because, it's not about the fact that it's objectively better than DSMC2, that's just an obvious fact. The issue is: "is it so much better to warrant a re-investment?". It's not made for wildlife photographers, it's a general upgrade, the official frontline of Red's lineup. Does it improve so much over the DSMC2 that it becomes a no-brainer investment? Because, as I mentioned, in the economy we're in right now, is it reasonable to re-invest in these cameras from the DSMC2s? And is it reasonable to invest in these cameras instead of a used DSMC2 system?

Just because something has been improved doesn't mean it's logical or rational to invest or re-invest in it. What I'm asking for is some rational thought in comparison to how previous installments of Red upgrades and innovations were. And the reason I'm arguing for that is that if everyone is just jumping aboard and never think about these things, then Red will just push out new stuff over and over without any actual innovation.

When Reduser was an active and crucial part of the Red infrastructure, the input from the community actually generated a hardware development feedback that made Red the absolute best option for anyone who wanted to be on the cutting-edge side of the industry. But now, both in the top levels of the industry and the indie levels, there's little reason left. It's just incremental improvements and a silent community.

If people aren't asking about the direction Red is going, about the community and so one. Where do you think Red is in a couple of years? With all the development that is going on from other companies, with the slow shift that's been going on at the top level of the industry changing to Sony and Arri, with just a few top names using Red systems, then if things aren't restored, Red won't be a big name anymore. Having witnessed this change to Red over the years, you can't just say "no one is forcing anyone to buy anything" as an argument for buying into these incremental improvements.

Here's another way to look at it.

If Red wants to seriously make business with its systems, just skip the incremental improvements on the top end. Focus on taking the tech they have and push down in size, complexity, and price. Until they have some innovation that is actually revolutionary. Take the sensors and image quality and infrastructure and bring it down into a mass market industry, because with the experience, the IPs, and tech they have, they could absolutely dominate the camera market at the level cameras like the Pocket and R5Cs and A7s are. They could own that market instead of trying to compete with Arri and Sony who's already won the top industry level. Trying to keep pushing against that will just end up killing the brand, leading to no one using it at the top level, and no one who can afford it compared to similar cameras on the indie level.

The point is, look past the fact that these cameras are better than previous Red cameras, that's not the issue or a problem, it's how much better they are and how they fit into the industry. If you care for the Red brand, then do you want it to exist in a couple of years? I do, that's why I'm pointing these things out even if Jarred thinks I'm a party pooper for doing so.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

It's seen as a virtue to want more DR, but it's not seen as a virtue to want more resolution. When people ask for more resolution, they are told that what really matters is story. When people ask for more DR, everyone nods. I wonder why that is.

 

[Jon Pais]

When I throw 6K Komodo footage on a 4K timeline, it results in a less noise and more detailed 4K. If you’re shooting 8K RedCode RAW with the Raptor VV, it enables recording 6K s35. If you’re one of those who, like David Fincher, crops, reframes and stabilizes in post, more resolution is certainly going to enhance your storytelling. Wildlife photographers appreciate the extra resolution. The same goes for VFX departments. Which is why nearly every manufacturer is following in RED’s footsteps. So many great films have been shot on RED, the Panavision DXL2 and the Sony Venice that you’re not going to convince me that resolution doesn’t matter. Never have I thought to myself while watching a movie shot with any of these cameras that they were lacking in dynamic range, far from it! And if you can’t get your story across with one of the V-Raptors, it won’t be the fault of the camera!

 

[Les Hillis]

I don't buy the initial premise, but the limits of DR are easier to reach and more obvious and objectionable when you exceed them than when you reach the limits of resolution. Increased resolution and dynamic range go hand in hand and are mutually beneficial imo. You can always find reasons to impose limits or settle for less and someone somewhere who's willing to agree with you in that.

 

[Les Hillis]

...Whom I'm talking about are not newcomers to Red, I'm talking about people who's been owning Reds for years and constantly jump onto upgrades because previously the upgrades have made sense, huge improvements generation by generation.

But this time, it's not huge anymore, so can you describe just how well thought through of an investment it is to re-invest in not just a new camera brain, but an entire infrastructure once more for production outputs that never hit top streaming quality or IMAX? The DSMC2 system is already extremely overkill for anything but high-end cinema, while other companies are on the brink of delivering close to Red's output quality for a fraction of even the DSMC2's costs, while Komodo can cover any lightweight body demands needed for a Red production.

I mean, do people just want "more more more" without even thinking about if it's a reasonable investment or not...?

...Yeah, and this is what I mean with social media marketing. Many of us here have been members since 2007 or even 2006 when Red was considered "vaporware". What I'm speaking about, which you don't have an experience with since you joined this forum in 2021, is how this forum was a core part of the Red infrastructure up until sometime around the launch of Komodo. You haven't been around when we as a community here on Reduser together with Red had deep conversations about Red's cameras, seeing actual improvements and ideas play out.

It was a seriously unique thing in the industry that was nowhere to be found and the fact that the new Rhino Raptor hasn't even been mentioned on the recon page is a clear sign that this forum has been abandoned in favor of social media marketing through influencers rather than the community discussions that existed before.

I understand that you don't understand any of this because you weren't part of it when it was going on, but this is what I'm referring to and why I'm saddened to see this community being left behind in favor of the hell that is Facebook pages as its successor. I wished you had been around before so you'd know what I'm talking about...

...Just because something has been improved doesn't mean it's logical or rational to invest or re-invest in it. What I'm asking for is some rational thought in comparison to how previous installments of Red upgrades and innovations were. And the reason I'm arguing for that is that if everyone is just jumping aboard and never think about these things, then Red will just push out new stuff over and over without any actual innovation.

When Reduser was an active and crucial part of the Red infrastructure, the input from the community actually generated a hardware development feedback that made Red the absolute best option for anyone who wanted to be on the cutting-edge side of the industry. But now, both in the top levels of the industry and the indie levels, there's little reason left. It's just incremental improvements and a silent community...

...If Red wants to seriously make business with its systems, just skip the incremental improvements on the top end. Focus on taking the tech they have and push down in size, complexity, and price. Until they have some innovation that is actually revolutionary. Take the sensors and image quality and infrastructure and bring it down into a mass market industry, because with the experience, the IPs, and tech they have, they could absolutely dominate the camera market at the level cameras like the Pocket and R5Cs and A7s are. They could own that market instead of trying to compete with Arri and Sony who's already won the top industry level. Trying to keep pushing against that will just end up killing the brand, leading to no one using it at the top level, and no one who can afford it compared to similar cameras on the indie level.

The point is, look past the fact that these cameras are better than previous Red cameras, that's not the issue or a problem, it's how much better they are and how they fit into the industry. If you care for the Red brand, then do you want it to exist in a couple of years? I do, that's why I'm pointing these things out even if Jarred thinks I'm a party pooper for doing so.

I hear what you're saying Christopher and can see the same changes with RED and REDUSER you're talking about.

I'd also mention though that REDUSER used to be an objectively more toxic and troll-ridden pit of self-interested customers and flame-baiting RED-haters than it is now, with minimal moderation and open disrespect and insults aimed at other REDUSERS and even Jim and Jarred and the company in general. Culminating in the ShitMag fiasco that, imo, played a part in the extent to which RED officially and informally communicate here now. Not saying that's all there was to it, but it wasn't ever all beer and skittles. And even when those lines of communication and feedback were more open and constructive here, it's not like there weren't still those WTF moments as RED made those moves that surely made sense to those in the center of RED bubble, but not anyone else.

Times in general have changed too, and for better or worse, the social media platforms (that weren't even around before) have become a more suitable venue for where RED are at now as a company and seem to want to go in terms of communication with their customers. It could even be argued RED are communicating with and getting more feedback from their customers than they ever have.

Talking of things changing and staying the same, and don't take this too personally, but I can remember your own extensive posting here about various aspects of the old upgrade paths as you faced your own decisions about what to do. So lets not pretend maneuvering through all that used to be a walk in the park either. The repeated complaining and hand-wringing in regards to upgrades happened like clockwork every time they were offered (not specifically talking about you there). RED not offering upgrades anymore (or, deliberately or not, something absolutely compelling to upgrade to) has cut REDUSER traffic (and logistical nightmares for RED) by a huge margin, regardless of what people might have had the opportunity to upgrade to. That alone says a lot about what REDUSER was about - how to get on and stay on the RED gravy-train. How to buy in and stay in with the least expense and effort, and how to make the technology actually work for you.

Those two questions now have different answers. How to buy in and stay in with the least expense and effort? Not with RED, there are easier and cheaper options now. How to make the technology actually work for you? Youtube videos, social media groups, and who gives a fuck anyway, we're not making actual movies with this stuff, near enough is good enough, just follow the trends and no-one will notice anyway.

I see no signs of RED wanting to target that market more, and I hope they don't. If people can't make the Komodo work for them, RED will be fine selling Komodo's and the Raptors to those who will or who are at least willing to try.

In terms of RED targeting again that middle-tier level of REDUSER who used to buy the lower-performing and cheaper versions of their flagship cameras, by offering DSMC3 cameras with lower performance levels and prices specifically for that market, it's hard to say. Those cameras would be day-one no-brainer purchases and upgrades for a lot of people, but RED have only made mention of wanting to shrink and unify their camera range, not flesh it back out, also stating they lost money upgrading peoples cameras themselves. And in practice, they're now offering the cheapest and highest performing cameras they've ever made, so what features would they cut that would actually reduce manufacturing costs enough to pass on those savings to the customers and create that more affordable and desireable middle-tier level of camera? Maybe the increased sales and cutting expenses by no longer making new DSMC2 cameras could make up the shortfall, who knows?

In regards to RED continuing to innovate, that might be tricky. When Jim started RED they had a clear over-riding goal and subset of goals that they were aiming for, and everything got thrown at achieving that, resulting in innovative and ground-breaking technology applications. Achieving 8K was similar, they knew what they wanted and just had to figure out how to get it. Without having such clear goals driving it, innovation is the result of a less focused and more cost-prohibitive process of 'blue-sky' research where you just go out and see what you can discover, then try and figure out what profitable use it might have (or sell what you've found to those who can). Obviously no-one's expecting RED to figure out entirely new technologies like that, but to continue innovating, they need to pick a goal that might involve using such technologies and throw everything at putting a solution together like they have in the past. As a hardware company it gets tricky again, as the software and AI side of things is currently a more fruitful area of growth. But again, the software and AI still needs hardware acquired resources to work with in the first place, so...

My fanciful wishful-thinking vote is for blowing the limits of dynamic range out of the water once and for all, so we can then start trying to capture and translate UV and Infrared signals into the visible spectrum. Or as you yourself have suggested, cameras that do the depth-mapping thing, well enough that you can just set them up to capture the performances within the spatial volume and select your angles and camera moves and editing later just using the resources/assets you captured in-camera.

Anyway, sorry for the long story. Just some opinions. Not having a dig at you in particular, I appreciate your contributions here and the way you question and challenge things without reverting to pointless complaining or hating on RED.

 

[rand thompson]

RED Rhino V-Raptor Page

https://www.red.com/v-raptor-rhino

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

As a wildlife filmmaker this camera would be incredibly useful for all the reasons Phil had already mentioned.
Looking forward to getting it out in the field. We are always looking to get a little more reach when shooting long lens.

 

[rand thompson]

[Inter BEE 2022] The highly anticipated RED 8K S35 V-raptor camera RHINO

By PRONEWSjp

 

[AndreasOberg]

But the real one, at least to natural history filmmakers that I speak with is working that long lens. Using the S35 with a 300mm you'd need about a 470mm lens. Take into account there aren't exactly a lot of f/2.8 470mm lenses out there (but some banging 400mm options!) and light gathering a valuable concept. Similarly wide angle tends to be easier to handle on VV than S35 in terms of quality of optics and options available.

/desire.

For lots of things I film we always need to get closer. But of course Raptor has better wide angle and a lot less noise. Perfect combination is to have both

 

[rand thompson]

360 seconds. Broadcast News & Commentary #32 /RED/Sennheiser/LiveU

by TKT 1957

RED: the camera RHINO V-Raptor 8K S35
Sennheiser EW-DX shipping
LiveU: the largest deployment in Qatar


Hosts
Philip Grossman
Mary Ann Seidler
Maria Kholodova

 

[Jon Pais]

He says the R3D patent has been extended?

 

[Phil Holland]

He says the R3D patent has been extended?

Did some sleuthing and read all the latest patents, which will certainly help exhaust my mind to get to bed tonight. Interesting stuff. Heavy reads, but the latest one that has been granted pertaining to "this topic" was on 11/15/2022 with other notable ones back in 2021. Actually worth a read if you're into image processing and nerdy tech stuff. Particularly the topic of creating 16-bit data, processing 15-bit and 1-bit reserved for a black sun effect, encoding to 12-bit log and converting back to 15-bit/16-bit again. Covers a lot of in depth camera technology that is under the hood. DCT encoding (or other) of raw data and the topic of ASICs and FPGAs as well as RAM related tech.

The prior/current patent runs till 2028. This one will last until 2042, at which time presumably we'll be using handheld gimbals filming with jetpacks.

 

[rand thompson]

Yeah Phil and Jon I heard that also but just thought Phil Grossman was maybe talking about the previous time before that would run out in 202X something. I didn't think Red would be able to extend their Patent once again. Maybe with this extension, knowing that other Camera Manufacturers will still be stifled from using certain Raw implementations in their cameras, Red will work with these other manufacturers like they are possibly rumored to be working with Canon with an external Redcode module.

 

[rand thompson]

Quick Kit | November 2022 [ RED RAPTOR 8K S35, Laowa 2x Anamorphic, Canon Announcements and more! ]


By CVP

At about the 1:22 minute mark, he shows some stills from the Red V-raptor S35 from some filmmaker in france.

Chapters:

Intro - 00:00
RED V-RAPTOR S35 - 00:12
Canon Announcements - 01:33
ARRI Announcements - 02:47
Atomos 8K Sensor - 04:03
SmallRig RC 350 B/D & 450 B/D LED Fixtures - 05:00
Cooke Optics 19-40mm T2.9 - 06:38
Laowa Proteus 2x Anamorphic - 07:44
Fujifilm Announcements - 08:39
Honourable Mentions - 09:32

 

[rand thompson]

Red 8k S35 Rhino V Raptor Underwater Reel

BY Sea Dragon Films

''first Underwater Cinematography shots with the new Red 8k S35 Rhino V Raptor in the new Nauticam V Raptor housing.''

 

[Trevor de Kock]

The sensor is "a hair" wider than S35 3-perf at 8K 17:9.

http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...=Kodak&modelB=Film&formatB=Super 35mm 3-Perf&

The main reason I imagine for this direction is extreme cross compatibility with all S35 glass. For those familiar with Dragon 6K versus 5K filming to accommodate the image circle/diagonal for various lenses, that seems to be the influence here. Also a welcome boost to long lens natural history filmmakers on that front.

And for VV and S35, 5K on the VV is about 8K on the S35:
https://phfx.com/tools/formatCompar...V-Raptor+8K+S35&formatB=8K+17:9&focalLengths=

Thanks Phil, exactly what I was wanting to hear as I'm often needing to go the 5K scenario with the full frame Dragon instead of 6K, with several of my lenses not covering. All the Canon L series and Laowas including the 24mm scope seem to cover 6K thankfully, but not in 8K I imagine. However, my go-to tele zoom lenses for wildlife work are the 2/3''Fujinon HA 25X 11 and the wider HA14 x4.5 Berd combined with the BE HDX 35mm adapter. The 25x covers 5K on the Dragon, but not 6K while the wider HA 14 x4.5 does not cover 5K on the wider end . With the smaller sensor Rhino I'm wondering if these lenses and still using the 35 adaptor will now cover 8K or at least 6K with the wider zoom, any thoughts appreciated ?

​

 

[AndreasOberg]

It is interesting that the sensor is a little bit smaller than Helium. This will make it a better match with the 50-1000 zoom since it has a image circle of 33mm. With Helium you had to use 7 + 7.5k together with it. I guess this would mean that the zoom would reach a bit longer as well. Wonder what the noise will be like though.