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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red V Raptor Rhino S35 Camera

Kemalettin Sert said:
I sold my v-raptor vv for 20k recently lol :) good riddance never again
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Unfortunate to hear. I know it's natural for people to come and go from camera platforms but when long time users leave it's worth looking into what their concerns or issues are. Is RED paying attention?

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Jonathan Keane said:
Mind me asking why you sold it? Was it the split sensor issue?
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No it wasn't one thing only multiple reasons..No EVF, no internal ND in sight, worst on-board monitor ever, and many other reasons.It's been almost 1.5 years since it came out and it was mostly in a beta phase. Why im helping a company to beta test their products?Sorry, i just couldn't anymore.
It was a big step down from previous generations. Playback etc. no offspeed slow fps options and many more.
Imagine they released the latest firmware and it still has a battery indicator problem with tilta battery plate.
Like how? i know at least 10 ppl reported that error on Reduser and Facebook. I guess they just don't listen anymore.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
multiple reasons
Click to expand...

Question. Realistically. If there was an EVF, a good one, and that eVND was available, where would you be at mentally? The new PL Mount just dropped and I suspect eVND is very, very soon.

On board monitor, some people seem to love or hate. I'm in the middle, though I do yearn for some DSMC2-isms applied. I don't personally have issues with the RMI 15mm mount and I see you can rig it "elsewhere", that does seem to cause some friction. But mainly I am looking forward to the GIOSCOPE update and I'm content with most in camera features. Wouldn't mind 1 additional Frame Guide thing, but I'm likely in a real minority there.

Agree additional Playback stuff would be ideal, that's a firmware request for sure. Also agree lower FPS would be desirable, also a firmware request.

All the above firmware feature requests I'm 100% certain RED knows about and is looking at or well into development on as they have been asked for "a bunch" over time.

I don't use 3rd party plates much, just Wooden Camera and RED's stuff on Raptor. But next time I have RED's ear I'll ask about/bring up this Tilta issue. I'm also fairly certain that's not a RED approved plate, but I'll investigate to see what's up there. Ironically, I use the Tilta plate on my Komodo and have been happy with it. Mainly use it for how it connects and places the battery.

To the original post of the thread, I've seen and used Rhino Raptors 8K S35 cams twice now, both on shoots with "teams", I was on my 8K VVs in both circumstances. Also it was used on a NASA shoot where one of my cameras was, but didn't have time to do much with it.

Circling back to the EVF. I see desire and advantages to go one of two ways. Utilize the RMI and have controls, which would be tied into the UI. The other option is go the SDI route, which would also require an additional cable for power. Being a fan of the DSMC2 EVF's compact nature and "cableless" mindset, I tend to desire the RMI version and I do hope there's pass through capabilities, but unsure if that's even possible.

Jarred has been rather interactive on Facebook responding to things that have been brought up. RED reads REDuser for sure. Only posts rarely. For actual issues it's always best to reach out to support via red.com, like the Tilta thing for example as that seems to have been working in a prior firmware.

I'm 4 months in w/ 7.5 months to go on a shoot with 2X V-Raptors. GIOSCOPE is something I'd really like realistically for what I'm filming, but hasn't exactly stopped me from working. I already ordered 2X of the new PL Mounts to swap out my Stratas for, and will order 2X of the eVND for both cameras and it will be 50/50 if, how, when I integrate them onto this specific shoot. EVF would be super nice and I was/am a dual EVF/LCD Touch user on DSMC2.
 
Phil Holland said:
Question. Realistically. If there was an EVF, a good one, and that eVND was available, where would you be at mentally? The new PL Mount just dropped and I suspect eVND is very, very soon.

On board monitor, some people seem to love or hate. I'm in the middle, though I do yearn for some DSMC2-isms applied. I don't personally have issues with the RMI 15mm mount and I see you can rig it "elsewhere", that does seem to cause some friction. But mainly I am looking forward to the GIOSCOPE update and I'm content with most in camera features. Wouldn't mind 1 additional Frame Guide thing, but I'm likely in a real minority there.

Agree additional Playback stuff would be ideal, that's a firmware request for sure. Also agree lower FPS would be desirable, also a firmware request.

All the above firmware feature requests I'm 100% certain RED knows about and is looking at or well into development on as they have been asked for "a bunch" over time.

I don't use 3rd party plates much, just Wooden Camera and RED's stuff on Raptor. But next time I have RED's ear I'll ask about/bring up this Tilta issue. I'm also fairly certain that's not a RED approved plate, but I'll investigate to see what's up there. Ironically, I use the Tilta plate on my Komodo and have been happy with it. Mainly use it for how it connects and places the battery.

To the original post of the thread, I've seen and used Rhino Raptors 8K S35 cams twice now, both on shoots with "teams", I was on my 8K VVs in both circumstances. Also it was used on a NASA shoot where one of my cameras was, but didn't have time to do much with it.

Circling back to the EVF. I see desire and advantages to go one of two ways. Utilize the RMI and have controls, which would be tied into the UI. The other option is go the SDI route, which would also require an additional cable for power. Being a fan of the DSMC2 EVF's compact nature and "cableless" mindset, I tend to desire the RMI version and I do hope there's pass through capabilities, but unsure if that's even possible.

Jarred has been rather interactive on Facebook responding to things that have been brought up. RED reads REDuser for sure. Only posts rarely. For actual issues it's always best to reach out to support via red.com, like the Tilta thing for example as that seems to have been working in a prior firmware.

I'm 4 months in w/ 7.5 months to go on a shoot with 2X V-Raptors. GIOSCOPE is something I'd really like realistically for what I'm filming, but hasn't exactly stopped me from working. I already ordered 2X of the new PL Mounts to swap out my Stratas for, and will order 2X of the eVND for both cameras and it will be 50/50 if, how, when I integrate them onto this specific shoot. EVF would be super nice and I was/am a dual EVF/LCD Touch user on DSMC2.
Click to expand...


If they had EVF and eVND a few months after the launch i ll be happier.I really don't understand why Red doesn't release the stuff during the launch and i really despise the idea of we ll make the body and other companies should make the rest kinda business.
When i bought V-Raptor during the initial launch i had to wait months to get a cage for it. Why does this my fault? What did i do wrong to deserve this? We are not the enemy here at all.
Same with cards and other stuff. It's not happening in a few months almost it takes a year.
Just check out Arri 35 they are now releasing with a whole kit and you buy a camera it comes with fully kitted cage accessories shoulder ready etc. You don't have to get the EVF from Zacuto or a pl to rf mount from some other company then think about does it have pl support bracket etc,you don't have to buy a cage from Tilta and many many nuanced things. You don't have to buy a gold mount adaptor from Tilta just because the original camera company didn't release one in a gold mount.
Let's blame covid or the so-called zombie attack for all this and that's why they couldn't outsource all this stuff. Then why not make DSMC3 backward-compatible EVFs etc.?
SmallHD stuff annoyed me so much by the way. Especially ELZone. Had to send RED countless emails about ELZone and then some to SmallHD.SmallHD said they wanna add ELZone but Red wouldn't allow them and i speak to Red they say something else.
There were multiple other problems with SmallHD DSMC3 monitor also and i reached out to SmallHD first and they said its not theirs its REDs so i should contact Red..Red says it's not theirs it's SmallHD and they were like dont you see it says SmallHD on it so reach out to them..
I tried to explain to them why and how, for example, if something happens to the monitor in Tesla should i contact LG first not Tesla..but Red was like yeah it's SmallHD not ours blah blah.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
happier
Click to expand...

In terms of the discordance between first, second, and third parties; I've seen that go down and it's not good and should be worked on. Most recently somebody on Facebook needed some replacement bolts, something I purchased directly from RED middle of last year prior to this shoot as having backup hardware like that is useful for me. There was ping ponging on these particular parts between RED and SmallHD, looks like it's finally being sorted out. I think the difficulty on this particular one is the RMI parts of a SKU, there is no "bolt pack" yet for DSMC3, and I think there should be and have a SKU.

The general thing regarding the DSMC3 of the now and DSMC and DSMC2 of the past is you would be relying on much, much older technology now compared to what DSMC3 can do currently and seems to be going. The camera's operating system along and RED Command Protocol 2 (RCP2 more or less tell you everything you're seeing now is brand new tech and takes more time to implement. I figured that out early on because the system is very, very different. At the same time the DSMC3 platform can do nutty things like wireless monitoring, camera control, 4K and 8K out, etc. I would be happy if my DSMC2 hardware was backwards compatible, but I would be very grumpy if that came at the cost of relying on 10 year old hardware and avoiding contemporary/modern production technology. Probably a place they could have landed in the middle, but more than likely also an additional hoop via adapters and such to really do.

I think when it comes to El Zone, and considering GIOSCOPE pre-dates it, the best solution is to offer both in camera. I don't know what Jarred and Ed sat down and talked about recently, but I suspect it had something to do with this. That will get sorted one way or another and Komodo recently got GIOSCOPE.

The one thing I was highly critical on with RED is not having a 1st party PL Mount available at launch. That to me was an oversight, especially when offering something like a Production Kit. Now that this is sorted, I suspect some of those Kits get updated to include the PL or likely soon a choice between PL and eVND PL. I will say though, as they are pursuing the dual RF and PL interface, getting communication for /i Data to passthrough likely was something that needed to be figured out as currently no other camera system does that that way. When I got to test that prototype recently I was extremely relieved that it worked as expected because it's been a missing piece on my shoots for about a year.

I'm actually "for" the directly for both the smaller V-Raptor and larger V-Raptor XL battery plate implementations as we no longer need a Battery Module, but I agree it's another thing that should have popped out early. I know have the full RED Cage, which I bought for a specific shoot, but now am more reliant Wooden Camera Micro Battery Plate Adapters as they are the actual best thing on the market currently, and reasonably priced considering their build quality, to go from Micro-V to full size V-Mount or Micro-V to Gold Mount.

I don't make light of the pandemic stuff, but I do know even now for all major manufacturers big and small they are still dealing with solving certain aspects of supply chain as well as re-imaginging-managing-manufacturing along the way. I enjoy hearing about the grossly wild things that everybody has had to endure. It's fascinating how manufacturing had to spin out of it while the production ramp up nearly rocketed once the gates were open for working again. Stressful in a lot of ways as money was left on the floor when cameras, components, and accessories were backordered or simply not available. That's still going on and it's wild. The production side of things didn't stop growing due the pandemic, it was more of a rubber band effect.

Back to what's at hand. My general opinion with a great deal of experience on all of the higher end systems for a long, long time is getting in early is both powerful and sometimes frustrating. RED, Sony, and Arri all go through this for about 1-1.5 years each new camera released as things get hammered out. That's mainly firmware and sometimes a hardware revision in one of those cases, but that doesn't explain the lack of physical day one accessories and that should be looked at.

I have a few other thoughts on the body type, but overall I'm very happy with what these cameras can do from an IQ and feature set perspective.
 
Phil Holland said:
In terms of the discordance between first, second, and third parties; I've seen that go down and it's not good and should be worked on. Most recently somebody on Facebook needed some replacement bolts, something I purchased directly from RED middle of last year prior to this shoot as having backup hardware like that is useful for me. There was ping ponging on these particular parts between RED and SmallHD, looks like it's finally being sorted out. I think the difficulty on this particular one is the RMI parts of a SKU, there is no "bolt pack" yet for DSMC3, and I think there should be and have a SKU.

The general thing regarding the DSMC3 of the now and DSMC and DSMC2 of the past is you would be relying on much, much older technology now compared to what DSMC3 can do currently and seems to be going. The camera's operating system along and RED Command Protocol 2 (RCP2 more or less tell you everything you're seeing now is brand new tech and takes more time to implement. I figured that out early on because the system is very, very different. At the same time the DSMC3 platform can do nutty things like wireless monitoring, camera control, 4K and 8K out, etc. I would be happy if my DSMC2 hardware was backwards compatible, but I would be very grumpy if that came at the cost of relying on 10 year old hardware and avoiding contemporary/modern production technology. Probably a place they could have landed in the middle, but more than likely also an additional hoop via adapters and such to really do.

I think when it comes to El Zone, and considering GIOSCOPE pre-dates it, the best solution is to offer both in camera. I don't know what Jarred and Ed sat down and talked about recently, but I suspect it had something to do with this. That will get sorted one way or another and Komodo recently got GIOSCOPE.

The one thing I was highly critical on with RED is not having a 1st party PL Mount available at launch. That to me was an oversight, especially when offering something like a Production Kit. Now that this is sorted, I suspect some of those Kits get updated to include the PL or likely soon a choice between PL and eVND PL. I will say though, as they are pursuing the dual RF and PL interface, getting communication for /i Data to passthrough likely was something that needed to be figured out as currently no other camera system does that that way. When I got to test that prototype recently I was extremely relieved that it worked as expected because it's been a missing piece on my shoots for about a year.

I'm actually "for" the directly for both the smaller V-Raptor and larger V-Raptor XL battery plate implementations as we no longer need a Battery Module, but I agree it's another thing that should have popped out early. I know have the full RED Cage, which I bought for a specific shoot, but now am more reliant Wooden Camera Micro Battery Plate Adapters as they are the actual best thing on the market currently, and reasonably priced considering their build quality, to go from Micro-V to full size V-Mount or Micro-V to Gold Mount.

I don't make light of the pandemic stuff, but I do know even now for all major manufacturers big and small they are still dealing with solving certain aspects of supply chain as well as re-imaginging-managing-manufacturing along the way. I enjoy hearing about the grossly wild things that everybody has had to endure. It's fascinating how manufacturing had to spin out of it while the production ramp up nearly rocketed once the gates were open for working again. Stressful in a lot of ways as money was left on the floor when cameras, components, and accessories were backordered or simply not available. That's still going on and it's wild. The production side of things didn't stop growing due the pandemic, it was more of a rubber band effect.

Back to what's at hand. My general opinion with a great deal of experience on all of the higher end systems for a long, long time is getting in early is both powerful and sometimes frustrating. RED, Sony, and Arri all go through this for about 1-1.5 years each new camera released as things get hammered out. That's mainly firmware and sometimes a hardware revision in one of those cases, but that doesn't explain the lack of physical day one accessories and that should be looked at.

I have a few other thoughts on the body type, but overall I'm very happy with what these cameras can do from an IQ and feature set perspective.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the support Phil you make a difference for lots of us.
One more thing about XL since i never had the chance to play with it. Can you use every lens with XL including rangefinder ones like Canon Dream set etc. with internal ND setup? Heard from someone you cant use those on XL because of the internal ND issue is that true?
I remember breakthrough and revolva had this problem with some lenses too.
How come Sony and Arri internal filter setups don't have any problems with these lenses? is it because they stack ND filters right in front of the sensor instead of the mount?
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Thanks for the support Phil you make a difference for lots of us.
One more thing about XL since i never had the chance to play with it. Can you use every lens with XL including rangefinder ones like Canon Dream set etc. with internal ND setup?
Click to expand...

I haven't tested "every lens" and I've worked with the camera intimately for about a month. I did try a few anamorphics that I thought wouldn't work, but they worked great with the eVND. There's certainly some lenses that go really extremely back there that likely won't work with any behind the lens filtration. I'm talking about any lens that exceeds beyond spec really, which there are a few.

Very honestly, if you're using the dream lens, which already has corner coloration and bucket smearing stuff going on due to it's retrofocus/rangefinder design on all modern motion picture cameras, I would go with front filtration to not enhance the things that lens doesn't do well. This is true for most lenses that go very deep. I get that question every so often on a variety of cameras as to why they are getting magenta vignetting, and whelp, it's the glass really.

For rangefinder glass, always be cautious of 50mm and wider, mostly a general rule of thumb. They were designed for a different medium and a different time. Leica to date is the only company who in their stills camera, particularly the M line, solves this by using different microlenses and much thinner filter stack. And interestingly we wouldn't ideally want that in most motion picture cameras when it comes down to it. No free lunch on that one.

I used to use my M glass a fair bit on Dragon 6K S35, but once we got to larger formats like VV, LF, and all that it was clear that it was far from best in those circumstances.
 
Phil Holland said:
I haven't tested "every lens" and I've worked with the camera intimately for about a month. I did try a few anamorphics that I thought wouldn't work, but they worked great with the eVND. There's certainly some lenses that go really extremely back there that likely won't work with any behind the lens filtration. I'm talking about any lens that exceeds beyond spec really, which there are a few.

Very honestly, if you're using the dream lens, which already has corner coloration and bucket smearing stuff going on due to it's retrofocus/rangefinder design on all modern motion picture cameras, I would go with front filtration to not enhance the things that lens doesn't do well. This is true for most lenses that go very deep. I get that question every so often on a variety of cameras as to why they are getting magenta vignetting, and whelp, it's the glass really.

For rangefinder glass, always be cautious of 50mm and wider, mostly a general rule of thumb. They were designed for a different medium and a different time. Leica to date is the only company who in their stills camera, particularly the M line, solves this by using different microlenses and much thinner filter stack. And interestingly we wouldn't ideally want that in most motion picture cameras when it comes down to it. No free lunch on that one.

I used to use my M glass a fair bit on Dragon 6K S35, but once we got to larger formats like VV, LF, and all that it was clear that it was far from best in those circumstances.
Click to expand...

I don't understand how it would work on Mini LF, Alexa 35, and Venice 2 with their internal ND systems but it wouldn't work on Raptor XL? are they using completely different ND systems?
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
I don't understand how it would work on Mini LF, Alexa 35, and Venice 2 with their internal ND systems but it wouldn't work on Raptor XL? are they using completely different ND systems?
Click to expand...

My best advice is to test and if the image quality is within tolerance for you, your production, and your client; enjoy working with Leica-M lenses.

In terms of the tech used, yes these cameras all use different ND solutions, but that isn't the whole issue with Leica-M glass. It's the sensor itself and how the lenses direct light via rear of the lens. It's a fairly cut and dry story. It's all over the internet now that it's easy to mount Leica-M glass to various mirrorless cameras even. Same issues. Grab some wide and ultrawide glass with an M11 and then shoot side by sides with any of these systems. You'll see the difference pretty much instantly.

Adding a rotating carousel of NDs, two wheels of carousels of NDs that stack, or an eND only enhances what is already going wrong with lenses that are very purpose designed for a different type of imaging plane.

Big, big Leica fan and owner here. But there isn't a production I've worked on where it would be okay shoot with wider than 50mm on larger format FF/LF/VV cameras where the image quality hit wouldn't be noticed. This particular thing is something post houses and DPs around the world have reached out to me to ask "what's going on" with camera X, Y, or Z. Same story for years.

Even spookier, some modern PL glass also faces subtle hits with behind the lens filtration, but I'll save that for another day. Most good glass, no issues.
 
Jonathan Keane said:
Black s35 raptor just dropped
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Noticed that this morning. On RED's site as well. Both XL and short body types:

Short/Regular
https://www.red.com/v-raptor-8k-s35-black?quantity=1&package=1

XL
https://www.red.com/v-raptor-xl-8k-s35?quantity=1&vxlpackage=1

Price difference between VV and S35 variants is about $7,000 USD.

8K VV is 1.56X times larger. S35 gets you 8K and full coverage of all S35 lenses. S35 8K format is a smidge larger than 5K on the 8K VV.
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...eB=RED&modelB=V-Raptor 8K VV&formatB=5K 17:9&
 
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