Red Scarlet vs. BMC fightclub!

[Mike Garrick]

Josh I've read your view points in the other threads. You have already said it.......

To clarify, apparently Scarlet is only used by people who have other jobs, who don't work on paid productions, who are a hobbyists, who don't work within the industry & by people who really want an Epic or would be far better off with a BMC.

I appreciate you "don't get this camera" myself I don't get HDSLR. Each to their own.

 

[dennys bisogno]

IMO. This business can be divided into 2 camps those who talk about it & those who do it . It appears Josh is in the former not the later. Hence we should all talk about it A LOT more, anything to prolong the experience of talking instead of doing .

Talk is cheap, action is where the work & money is.

+1 Amen to that

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Man, I wouldn't touch this thread with a 50' techno crane!

 

[Josh Snyder]

Josh I've read your view points in the other threads. You have already said it.......

To clarify, apparently Scarlet is only used by people who have other jobs, who don't work on paid productions, who are a hobbyists, who don't work within the industry & by people who really want an Epic or would be far better off with a BMC.

I appreciate you "don't get this camera" myself I don't get HDSLR. Each to their own.

That post clearly shows you haven't. And why are you brinning HDSLR to this discussion. We are talking about high grade digital cinema cameras here.

 

[Richard_JP]

You and Josh are reflecting a generation of film wannabees. All your discussions reflect an insecurity of your personal investments in a technology that may bring little return. You continually criticize features and in the end it always boils down to cost. As a working professional, I invest in gear because I need it, not because I may have some job in the future so I better not spend too much because I could loose money if it doesn't work out.

When the Scarlet was announced, it offered some serious bang for relatively little cost. For the hobbyist, it is still a lot of money. For a working professional, it could be easily paid off with one job. You do not represent all the demographics for any camera. Neither do I. How can anyone make blanket statements about how Scarlet has been perceived in production environments? There are plenty people on this forum who have used it in actual productions. Just like the Canon 5D have. There is no right or wrong answer. So please start treating people on this forum with respect. If the RED cameras are not for you, that is totally cool, but you don't need to keep pounding your chest about how it's not right for you. One day when you actually invest in something, I hope you use your skills for something worthwhile.

Spot on, indeed I am a film wannabee, no doubt about it. I have my sights firmly set on feature film some time in the future, but for now I'm stuck in the world of advertising. I think, if my memory serves me correctly, this is the first time I've commented on the BMC. Personally I have little interest in the BMC, much the same as I have no intention of investing in a Scarlet. They are equally flawed cameras. My point was that the BMC is flawed at a much cheaper price point. If you want to own something that is future proof, the Epic and the F65 are the only cameras currently on the market that can be considered (IMO!).

I too am a working professional, but I offer my services based on what I know, not what I own. I rent cameras depending on what I need and that rental cost is built into my budgets. The Epic is often the obvious choice. But to my recollection, I have never been deliberating between the Alexa, Epic and the Scarlet. It's a no brainer, why would I chose the dumbed down version of the Epic, when I have the budget for an Epic? Which brings me to the point, why did you chose it? Because it was cheaper right? Because you couldn't afford the Epic, which is probably what you really wanted. See, now your stance is to belittle people who chose cameras that are within their economic capabilities. But I'm not going to do that to you, instead I'm going to applaud you. More people should learn to work with what they can afford and make the best of it. And when you're good enough, you too can be shooting on the best cameras. But until then, make do with the Scarlet.

All your discussions reflect an insecurity of your personal investments in a technology that may bring little return.

On the contrary, I have no insecurities regarding my investments. Do you?

 

[Mike Garrick]

@ Peter ......LOL!

I think the discussion is about what to put at the end of the 50ft techno crane.

 

[Adam Beck]

Man, I wouldn't touch this thread with a 50' techno crane!

Nor will a BMCC ever touch a 50' techno crane!

 

[Josh Snyder]

Spot on, indeed I am a film wannabee, no doubt about it. I have my sights firmly set on feature film some time in the future, but for now I'm stuck in the world of advertising. I think, if my memory serves me correctly, this is the first time I've commented on the BMC. Personally I have little interest in the BMC, much the same as I have no intention of investing in a Scarlet. They are equally flawed cameras. My point was that the BMC is flawed at a much cheaper price point. If you want to own something that is future proof, the Epic and the F65 are the only cameras currently on the market that can be considered (IMO!).

I too am a working professional, but I offer my services based on what I know, not what I own. I rent cameras depending on what I need and that rental cost is built into my budgets. The Epic is often the obvious choice. But to my recollection, I have never been deliberating between the Alexa, Epic and the Scarlet. It's a no brainer, why would I chose the dumbed down version of the Epic, when I have the budget for an Epic? Which brings me to the point, why did you chose it? Because it was cheaper right? Because you couldn't afford the Epic, which is probably what you really wanted. See, now your stance is to belittle people who chose cameras that are within their economic capabilities. But I'm not going to do that to you, instead I'm going to applaud you. More people should learn to work with what they can afford and make the best of it. And when you're good enough, you too can be shooting on the best cameras. But until then, make do with the Scarlet.



On the contrary, I have no insecurities regarding my investments. Do you?

Ouch.

Prepare to get no replies.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

How about this, no one comment on the BMC anymore, and hopefully troll Josh will fade away like distant memory, or even loose the troll and grow to be a welcomed contributor to this forum. The main issue seems to be having a discussion that does not focus on inane talking points and moot issues, all the while ignoring and misunderstanding the real issues that are being brought up. Not to mention the repetition of other peoples words that are not based in experience but in bile and hatred(from their own misteps) directed towards red for some unknown reason that can not possibly justify the onslaught. The only reason he is here now was one over the top comment about BMC so perhaps we shall have to be the ones who guard our words and play nice, as it seems he does not know how or refuses too.

Josh I wish you all the best, good luck in your future endeavors, and for the love of everything in this world listen to those who came before you double check everything anyone say's see with your own eye's through your own footage before you lambast something, and it would be better if you never lambasted anything. The content creation business is vast and wide with many different needs and wants, the differences you describe between scarlet and others only benefits us, CHOICES, you like the BMC great, you like the fs700 great, you liek your HVX/DVX wonderful, now go out and work practice your craft. Pitting camera's against each other is for rental houses and camera companies I pick my camera then I want to learn it's limits and it's trick's and want to discuss it on a forum away from pointless discussions about what camera to purchase when people don't understand their needs from their wants or are willing to have a rational discussion. we can all have our perfect camera for now so how about just respecting that and staying on BMCuser if you hate red so much and try not to jump each reduser who say's something bad about BMC, as I'm certain you or the bmc community would not appreciate redusers jumping down their throats any time someone even mentioned red in a slightly bad light... which happens a lot over there but FUD is to be expected from those who close their minds on any board.

Remember fads come and go but talent always remains, red was the fad once and the backlash created the likes of you, I'm scared to think of the self entitlement and rudeness that will result from this next backlash from people expecting to get their miracle camera.

What is wrong with people, why the need to be some combative and hateful, so uncivil, resorting to ad hominem and FUD. This business is all about working with people, people you might not like or get along with or be very different from, you are going to have to learn to interact with people better or else you will be in big trouble in life in general as well.

Have a nice day, I understand your passion, I don't understand your approach. it's your life to screw up not mine so I understand if you tell me to f off. I'd say take a breath close the computer and grab whatever camera you have at your disposal be it cell phone or alexa and go out and shoot something, put together a short, and then remember we are all in this together for the same reason, we love making beautiful moving images and luckily for us there is a very wide definition of what people consider a beautiful moving image.

Have a happy and prosperous new year

 

[Eric Santiago]

You spend all this time arguing with people and it seems to me you have had very little to no practical experience with any professional camera...

I have to admit that over the weeks (after reading his posts), he is getting better at his posts.

If you read his earlier work, he almost comes across as fake and simple minded (not being an ass just stating how your posts read to me).

Of late, his posts are almost very confident and concise almost too professional sounding (IMHO).

I am going to say this again as I've stated before...are we being punked?

Is this guy a professional FUD forum person that gets paid to do this?

I am not kidding.

Ive been hanging at BMCUser and BMD forum since the start of the BMCC craze and I honestly have not seen this guys name (as Ive experienced it here at REDUSER).

Josh fess up, you are a FUD bot right?

No honestly!!

 

[Eric Santiago]

..On the contrary, I have no insecurities regarding my investments. Do you?

Richard most of us here have something to fight for.

Do you?

Did you invest into any camera gear?

I want to know what makes some of you tick when it comes to dealing with this topic.

For years I was a lurker due to work RED MX.

I was here for DIT and learning purposes hoping someday I will make my own personal investment into RED.

I made that choice last October when the BT Scarlets were announced.

Cancelled my EF and MF BMCC orders.

I too would be miffed if some snot nose kid walked into my sandbox and started telling me that my dump-truck wasnt as good as someone elses.

Considering the kid has no experience or even tried to make that initial investment

 

[Simon Knight]

Hey Eric... remember the Richard chap I had "discussions" with over on BMCCuser. He constantly wanted John Brawley to film greenscreen shots.?? Another one like these chaps..

See I love being late to the party... I'm still so happy with my HDV camera that has been given a new lease of life with an Atomos Ninja. 23Mbps to 220Mbps... I can finally color grade!! And because I bought wisely -the lens is a fine one that gives excellent images...

So for me the jump to Scarlet is a huge one. And yes, I'd love an Epic. Preferably one with Peter Jackson's sputum still dripping off the OConnor focus wheel... but then I can't afford it. And my clients don't want it. But they've paid off the Sony and Atomos for me and my latest gig is paying for the Scarlet. It's a dream. One months worth of work and I get a free camera... So it's a no-brainer really. I want what I can afford - and I can afford what I want. Sometime renting just doesn't cut the mustard (relish for you yanks - grin x) meaning I can pick up a camera and shoot an idea. Or divvy up the budget better as I dont have to allow for $400 a day to rent the camera..

Perhaps i'm just a realist cinematographer living in a credit-consumer world.. I know i'm made as on my way to finding Scarlet I discovered my Arri 16ST. Ahhhh, film....
Now feel free to attack me...

(wink) and that's not a typo...

SK
MediaHound Films

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Is this guy a professional FUD forum person that gets paid to do this?

He's been doing posts like this here for more than a year.

Here he seems to say that a Panasonic GH2 is better than an Epic at 1080p (scaled down, not cropped):

EPIC (and Scarlet) is soft at 2K and you can get many consumer cameras under 1k$ that are sharper and more detailed at 1080p. At 5K EPIC is really sharp.

All these resolutions with cameras don't really mean anything. What matters is the quality of the pixels, not the quantity. If you made 5K using GH2's or 500$ Sonys pocket camera pixels it would be twice as sharp and detailed as EPIC.

Check this: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?64983-RED-Epic-verus-Panasonic-GH2

From last year when people started getting Scarlets:

Scarlet colors remind me of many late 80's and yearly 90's electornic device cases.

In response to RED's short film "Tattoo" which was shot on Epic:

There is videoish look in it. Esspecially in the bar scenes. Film looks like film. That's why it's still superior to any digital camera.

He loves to heap praise on other cameras:

I could easily pick hundreds of videos from vimeo that has been shot with DSLR that are better in every way than 99% of the videos posted on "SHOT ON RED" section of this forum.

F65 has 8K sensor and was announced last year... 16K in the other hand.. when will we see that?

When I started watching Pirates of the Caribbean 4 first thing I noticed was that the movie had different, more "reality" look in it than the first movies, which were shot with Arriflex (Arriflex share the same qualities as Alexa). The 4th one was graded in same way, but they still have different quality on them.

Almost all of his posts are negative:

Jim, Prometheus will be finished 2K. Wouldn't dvxuser be better place for this thread since this movie isn't up to RED standards?

Like I said, if you use RED and something gets broken, you send it to USA and wait. If you need to buy accesories etc you might end up waiting months in back order. With lower budget one camera productions this can be disaster.

I said to look at the trailers from youtube since that's the best quality you can see the trailers from the internet (apple trailers might have better 1080p versions?).

Zacuto invited RED to come with EPIC for The Great Camera Shootout 2011. RED said no.

The Great Camera Shootout is the best camera comparison ever. They won Emmy last year and are nominated for few again this year. If I knew I had superior product, I would go to the Shootout with my camera and show the world how good it is. That's a no brainer, business 101. There's a reason why RED didn't go. If they knew they had the superior product of course they would have gone.

One of the biggest reasons people in the industry prefers ARRI/Alexa is that it looks more filmic than RED/EPIC. RED looks more of hi def video.

and even funnier is to see some people now saying videolike footage looks good when it's shot with RED.

Alexa has better image than EPIC, so Scarlet is not destorying anything outside your daydreams.

About the Hobbit trailer:

It's no just the frame rate. For examplem just pause on some close ups and the picture looks very video like. Sharp but cheap.

In response to something someone shot on Scarlet:

Great video.

Though, I have to say that Storm's video was and looked better and it was shot with 7D and 5D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHy9W9LpvlQ

RED ONE footage looks better than Epic footage (keep in mind that he hasn't used either):

I've been thinking this too. Red One looks better for some reason.

Trying to talk someone out of buying a Scarlet:

Gregory, 120fps 1K is JOKE! No one should use it and I have no idea why RED even included it since they believe 4K is the lowest people should shoot to keep the footage future proof. You understand that 1K is smaller than 720p? and you understand that the 1K is cropped from the center of the image? 1K is way too small resolution to shoot these days and sorry to say this 1K from Scarlet looks really bad. If you need 120fps these two camers aren't for you.

It goes on and on...

 

[Matt Ryan]

I'm still confused why they are comparing the Scarlet to the BMC...for price range and features shouldnt the BMC be compared with say a 5D Mark III? More in the same price range and target market. This format of "comparison" is ridiculous because it's just about cheapest out of the box... Apparently both cameras are "heavy," (i guess compared to a dslr?) and both can adapt to some of your old dslr kit. Ridiculous format... One is $3,000, the other $9,000...theres no way the Scarlet will ever win when it's about being the cheapest to get up and running...


I'm also 100% certain Josh has never shot on any of these cameras...his comments speak to his lack of hands on experience since he only talks tech specs or other peoples work.

 

[Simon Knight]

By the way I haven't invested in either RED or BMD.

As a genuine question Josh....... Why are you here?

 

[Richard_JP]

Richard most of us here have something to fight for.

Do you?

Did you invest into any camera gear?

Glass. It fits on any camera, doesn't depreciate the same way as tech and isn't subject to the next "big thing".

As I said before, I rent cameras so that I can be flexible to my clients needs. I'm not tied to a particular brand or camera. I usually always rent an Epic and if I'm honest, I may end up buying one so that I can coin in the rental fees. I have never even seen a Scarlet in rental houses round my area...

 

[Martin Stevens]

:emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn:

 

[Eric Santiago]

As I said before, I rent cameras so that I can be flexible to my clients needs. I'm not tied to a particular brand or camera. I usually always rent an Epic and if I'm honest, I may end up buying one so that I can coin in the rental fees. I have never even seen a Scarlet in rental houses round my area...

Same here (locally) but that doesnt mean its not worth anything.

Heck I got work using a DVCAM last October


In regards to Brandon's findings...thats just sad

Somebody please give that guy a camera!!

 

[Josh Snyder]

Wouldn't surprise me. He doesn't seem to be on bmcuser or dvxuser or anywhere that I can find... He's been doing posts like this here for more than a year too.

I'm on bmcuser with username Josh. You can go and look at my posts there too. You might even find some posts where I praise EPIC. Though you will ignore those like you do here.

Ok you took my posts out of context and tried to twist my words so I will reply to all quotes...

Here he seems to say that a Panasonic GH2 is better than an Epic at 1080p (scaled down, not cropped):

I didn't say GH2 is sharper than EPIC 5K scaled down. I said GH2 is sharper at 1080p than EPIC cropped to 1080p.

From last year when people started getting Scarlets:

This was my comment on how the colors of Scarlet brain looked like. The colors still remains me about 8bit Nintendo or other devices from the same era.

In response to RED's short film "Tattoo" which was shot on Epic:

It does look videoish there is no way around it and that's because they didn't try to get further away from the digital look in post. Have you heard how many people think that Hobbit looks like video? It's like half of the people who saw it. But obviously EPIC can't look videoish EVER. How dare all these people say it looks like video. They are all wrong!

He loves to heap praise on other cameras:

That was reply to a person who said we might see 6K sensor in the future.

Almost all of his posts are negative:

They are only negative in your eyes.

The Hobbit looks like video half of the people here thinks that too.

About the Hobbit trailer:

3rd quote about the Hobbit looking like video. You already done with this? I can quote 100's of posts from the Hobbit thread that agrees with me.

In response to something someone shot on Scarlet:

You can take a look at both of these two videos and then give your honest opinion. Sorry that I'm not a liar like some.

RED ONE footage looks better than Epic footage:

Red One looks better than EPIC.

There's yet another active thread on EPIC forum where RED owners come to same conclusion. Many RED owners think like this. Maybe you haven't looked the footages of each camera that well...

It goes on and on...

You trying to twist my words? Yes it seems to go.

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

This thread needs locking before some of the animals go loose elsewhere!