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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Scarlet vs. BMC fightclub!

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Okay after further investigation I retract my conspiracy theory.

I apologize to Josh for that comment.

You just are a pain in the ass here :)

And since its a forum and he gets his opinion, I get mine too ;)
 
love how what was probably ment to be a "fun informative comparison" between both cameras has become a "bloodsport" over here between "josh" and almost everyone else [I have found it all quite entertaining to be honest]. But I dont think anyone should respond to Josh anymore if they feel he is just trolling or what ever "conspiracy theory" you buy into about him. He clearly loves the BMCC for the price point and the images it produces and thats great for him and maybe one day he will commit sometime at the end of next year once all the perorders have shipped out. But are we seriously going to keep entertaining him about it?

But back on topic now, the Video comparison was great but like a lot of other's have stated it should be more compared to a 5DMkiii or other such camera because that is in its price range that BMD is attempting to compete with, if they were seriously going to want to compete with RED they would of made a S35 Sensor Version that shot 4k with all the bells and whistles and priced it out around the 6kish range [I personally wouldn't mind having this version of a BMCC as a B-Cam]. All they wanted to do is give customers a revolutionary product at a great price and that is what they did is it for everyone. but these silly BMCC VS. RED Scarlet is like comparing a Jetta to a WRX STi... they are completely different creatures;-)
 
This is the honest to goodness truth...

Give me a brilliant DP with a BMC and I will give you gorgeous footage. Give me that same DP with a Scarlet and I will give you gorgeous footage. Give me a brilliant DP with an Epic or Alexa - gorgeous footage. Will it all look the same? No, of course not. But that's the point. When you are shooting a movie, a TV show, a commercial, or a web video you are not doing an A/B of cameras, you are using a camera that was chosen to achieve the goals of the production. Usually the A/B has already long been done if needed at all.

This all may sound cliche but guys I've seen it so many times out in the real world. When there is a really good DP, gaffer, production designer, etc the production values go way up, the footage looks really great and people are happy. What I see on here is people look at specs as the holy grail and out in the real world, they are only part of the equation. So, when I see blanket statements like "BMC is not professional or Scarlet is not professional", I can't help but laugh because I know that in the hands of some of the DPs I have had the privilege to work with they would certainly get professional results from these cameras. They would be walking billboards for these cameras.

I see complaints about Red One's weight all the time. Today I had the choice of using the R1 or my GH2 to shoot some footage of my kids playing out in the snow. I chose the R1 because I would get better dynamic range with the snow, and I also find the R1 easier to do handheld with as the extra weight helps stabilize shots (also less rolling shutter artifacts). Using the camera was easy (except I didn't use my DP4 EVF so I missed some focus due to sun glare). The rig weighed less than 15 lbs.

It's no use getting up in arms about these comparisons. Ultimately the only comparisons that matter are the ones you do for yourself. Liberate yourself and let your eyes be the judge. And if your opinion differs from someone else, then make sure to keep discussion respectful.

Here's to good vibes in 2013!
 
The criteria for who is winning on the web show is sort of hack is my thesis. My iphone is the best camera of all, built in battery, lens, ready to shoot out of the box, ease of use.... So if we are going to use such USELESS criteria I vote the smartphone as the winner! Angry birds, phone calls, its the camera that keeps on giving! I want to develop an app called Iphantom....lol
 
Brian Merlen said:
The criteria for who is winning on the web show is sort of hack is my thesis. My iphone is the best camera of all, built in battery, lens, ready to shoot out of the box, ease of use.... So if we are going to use such USELESS criteria I vote the smartphone as the winner! Angry birds, phone calls, its the camera that keeps on giving! I want to develop an app called Iphantom....lol
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+1 Shit its got angry birds... This camera aint playing around;-)
 
Scott Crawley said:
Rupert Pupkin ladies and gentlemen, Rupert Pupkin...
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King+of+Comedy.jpg


Loved that movie :)
 
Ok, I'm taking one last crack at this. Sorry guys!

Josh...this is directed at you, specifically. As I'd love your honest view on the BMC.

Josh...You say Scarlet "looks 8-bit". Red One "looks better than Epic". Epic "looks video". You're outlandish critiques of RED products, and your holist view of the BMC, makes you come off pretty biased, and one sided, FYI (you may say, you look like a paid advocate of Black Magic, haha!). And...as you are on a RED-focused forum, your actions are clearly seen as antagonistic by many.

But...as this is an open forum, all views are encouraged, and you are welcome to take advantage of that. But, in that spirit, I have some questions for YOU about the BMC. As it has received some well-deserved criticisms as well.

In particular, Philip Bloom has some interesting observations about the BMC. As a well known Epic critic, I think we can safely say he has no bias towards RED, so his POV I think is certainly credible, and worth responding too. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Here we go:


ON SHOOTING RAW, AND MEDIA STORAGE:

"The raw is uncompressed Cinema DNG. Yes you can have compressed raw. Red have it, Cineform has it. Uncompressed raw on paper sounds ideal but in practice is far too time consuming and far too expensive. In uncompressed raw, 30 minutes of footage will fill up a 240GB SSD. Yep…240GB. You can record in ProRes HQ or Avid DNXHD which is way more efficient BUT it’s not raw so the options that raw give us are gone. You have to make decisions in-camera and adjust lighting to compensate. For my mini doc below “Ponte Tower” I used up close to 600GB of data for around around 1 hour and ten minutes of rushes. On a Mk3 this would be around 48gb in its ALL-I 90mb/s codec. So archiving is incredibly expensive, time consuming. You don’t offload to one hard drive, ideally you offload to 3 maybe 4…that will add up! It takes longer to offload from this camera than the Red Epic as the Epic uses compressed raw." - PHILIP BLOOM
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So right off the bat, shooting RAW with the BMC (if you are going to compare it to Scarlet) is going to require 600GB per hour! On Scarlet at 8:1 at 4K HD that some hour only requires 120GB. At 10:1, it only takes 90GB. And the Scarlet is shooting in 4K, not 2.5k.

I shoot mostly mini-docs, and normally shoot at least 5hrs with two cameras. So that's 10hrs total. On BMC that would require 6TB's of space. As any good DIT ordinarily makes at least one clone of material, that will require 12TBs of media (2 x 6TB, for $987). For the Scarlet shoot at 8:1 we would only need two 2TB drives (349.98 total). And to think...at 10:1 we would only need two 1TB drives.

So, even at 8:1...the difference in cost is $637.02 per shoot. In 5 shoots, the BMC would cost me $3185.10 in additional media costs, which is essentially the cost of a BMC. In 15 shoots, the costs jump to $9,555.3, which by then would easily buy you a scarlet. (And you can't say...reuse drives...because in my world you can't; the client gets one drive, and we the vendor keep another for safe-keeping; they never get wiped).

And don't forget...even while using all these extra drives...you are still shooting 2.5K on a smaller sensor.

How do you plan to get around this media/storage issue, and these significant extra expenses? Mr.Bloom clearly thinks it's an issue. This is obviously not a documentary camera, and it's voracious media use clearly makes it a specialized camera better suited for commercials...a space it is competing with Scarlet, Epic and Alexa...but with a much more complicated workflow.

Note - also, bear in mind that 6TB's of media to copy on a shoot will take much longer to clone than 1.2TB. 1.2TB takes us about 3-4hrs. Stands to reason 6TB's could take 12-18hrs. This means your DIT or DP will probably be charging you an extra day rate to supervise the media management.


ON FARM FACTOR & SOUND:

"Form factor is not good either. It’s big and heavy with a big reflective touch screen on it. The software is still very much a work in progress. The Canon lens can be controlled via the camera on-screen controls but no f-stop is displayed (IS is supported by the way). Also audio is via quarter inch jacks, balanced, but no phantom power. There is a headphone jack but with no meters on the screen currently, I have yet to record sound in camera properly on a job." - PHILIP BLOOM
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So form factor isn't ideal, the UI is in it's early stage (while the Scarlet is on v4.0), and he hasn't been able to record decent audio yet. Scarlet audio isn't perfect, but with Mini-XLR inputs it's still very usable (audio guys have never had a problem plugging into our Scarlets).

Is this an issue for you? Or are you OK with the very DSLR limited audio functionality of the BMC?


ON ROLLING SHUTTER & ISO:

"So I used this for a documentary. For me, this is not a documentary camera (unless we are talking just talking heads and reconstructions, not an evolving, actuality doc). Ponte Tower was all tripod… Handheld is so tricky with this, a really good rig is essential and it does have poor rolling shutter issues. It’s rated as 800 ISO but doesn’t like being pushed much more than a couple of stops..at 3200 ISO it can be quite noisy, but the noise is actually quite pleasing. One thing I found though is the noise is so fine, compressing for H264 for vimeo was really really hard in the noisy shots…" - PHILIP BLOOM
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As he and many others have said, the BMC has poor rolling shutter. Does this bother you? This clearly limits the camera to more static setups like locked of shots, slow pans, and interviews. At least if you want it to compete with say...a Scarlet....the BMC seems to be at a disadvantage here. How do you think this limitation hampers the BMC? It clearly isn't ideal for DOC work (too much media gets consumed), and also isn't ideal for action scenes that create rolling shutter. It seems best used for beauty shots. Are these limitations acceptable to you for the price?

Also, though the camera is rated at 800 ISO, he notes that it can't be pushed that far. The Scarlet is 320 ISO, but also recommended to be used at 800 ISO (Red's guidelines). So the Scarlet and BMC don't seem very far off here (though I admit the BMC may have a small advantage). But Bloom's note about 3200 ISO being noisy and hard to deal with on Vimeo is worth pointing out. That's about the same limit for Scarlet too, so one could argue that even the BMC's one main advantage (low-light sensitivity)...is not so major after all.


BLOOM'S FINAL THOUGHTS ABOUT THE BMC:

"So what can this camera be used for? Weddings? Please don’t! Or events unless you own G-Tech or Seagate! The raw is incredibly powerful and the image is gorgeous, detailed and rather filmic. This is a special effect camera, a camera for commercials…a low budget fiction camera? Sure…you just need DIT for all of these! It’s not great in low light, so it’s a camera that really needs lighting. Not a problem for most genres that I have mentioned above but not for documentaries where often you have to go with available light, which is what I did for “Ponte Tower”.For a first camera, this is mind blowing. Having raw, prores HQ, Avid DNxHD and a dynamic range (in raw) of around 13 stops, this is mightily impressive. With firmware tweaks this will be much more usable. BUT, this is simply not a step up from a DSLR, it’s a totally different tool and as long as you go into this with open eyes, you will have a great time! I would say this is a hand saw whilst the MK3 is an jigsaw…do you get my analogy? Both do the same job, but one is way more efficient and damn faster than the other, but with the other one you can be really careful and slow, getting it perfect. I have one and will use it for certain jobs. I adore the image and I love mucking about with the raw in the included DaVinci Resolve. It’s so powerful and eye opening.This is generation one. I am certain what Blackmagic show us next will blow our socks off and probably our trousers and probably our underwear which would be very embarrassing if they did this at NAB 2012 at a presser!!" - PHILIP BLOOM
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As you can see, he thinks the BMC is off to a good start, but doesn't seem ready yet for the big-time. For doc work, you're better with a 5D MKIII. And for commercial/cinema work, the Scarlet's workflow is more efficient, and 4K.
 
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continued...

MEANWHILE, BLOOM'S THOUGHTS ON THE SCARLET:

"I like the Scarlet…it’s a cheaper version of the Epic but without most of the cool features, but retains the 4k in-camera recording in compressed raw R3D. Much better than Cinema DNG and a lovely codec to work with. It’s not cheap, even with the price cuts as it needs a fair bit of stuff to kit it out properly…but still it’s an amazing camera and would I like one? Sure…but again this is a Cinema Camera. Can it be used in docs? Of course, like the Blackmagic one, but I would not chose this due to its official native ISO of 320 ISO so it is a camera that needs lighting…not a problem for most fiction gigs. Not ideal for docs. So nice camera and if they can find a way to get that upcoming Dragon sensor in it – then it will become a much better camera for me." - PHILIP BLOOM
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As you can see, right off the bat, he loves the R3D workflow. And this is coming from an Epic hater/critic. And...he's not a huge fan of the Cinema DNG workflow, and the huge file sizes. Notice he calls the Scarlet "an amazing camera", a "Cinema Camera". He has few reservations about it except that it doesn't have the higher frame rates/resolution of Epic, and needs a bit more light that he'd like for docs. Compared to his reservations for the BMC, I think these reservations are minimal at best.

Josh, what do you think about all of this? To sum this all up: the BMC camera is costly to run in media. Has an unproven, slow RAW workflow. Is only 2.5K. Has a smaller sensor. Has rolling shutter. Has DSLR like audio workflow. And is neither ideal for doc work or action. It also has no slow-mo, where the Scarlet can do 48fps respectively at 3K. Scarlet also now has time-lapse at 5K.

In short, Scarlet is ideal for commercial and cinema work. Whereas the BMC is still unproven, and lags behind the Scarlet in numerous crucial areas...As both these cameras compete in the same space (commercial/narrative), these BMC deficiencies poke a hole in your "same quality for a lower price" argument.

How do you respond to these legitimate BMC concerns? I know the BMC is a great camera, and I respect Mr.Blooms opinion that for locked of beauty work it's great. But there are lots of questions, too. I'd love to hear your answers.

Respectfully,
Nick Morrison.
 
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Steve Sherrick said:
Today I had the choice of using the R1 or my GH2 to shoot some footage of my kids playing out in the snow. I chose the R1 because I would get better dynamic range with the snow, and I also find the R1 easier to do handheld with as the extra weight helps stabilize shots (also less rolling shutter artifacts).
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I often find myself using my RED to film my kids doing kids stuff. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
 
Josh Snyder said:
That's like comparing Mac and PC except the first one costs way more in this case, not way less. Still, many people use Mac's with great results.



Alexa is truly proessional hi-end camera. Scarlet is not. BMC is not either. But once again BMC delivers when it comes to image quality and that's what matters for most. Scarlet and BMC are cinema cameras, just take the hi-end out of it.

How many feature films (no zero budget b-movies) have been shot with Scarlet so far? This is BMC vs Scarlet remember? Not BMC vs RED. I will also bet that BMC will be used more in low budget movies as well as in major productions as a b-cam than Scarlet.

ARRI put film cameras out of business with Alexa. This, if you want to name one brand and camera. Reality is that ARRI, RED, Canon, Sony and few smaller players all were part of that. Though, in your fictional fantasy world things obviously look different.


Like you said that's your personal opinion and yes there is. You can't get same kind of image out from Scarlet. Scarlet weighs twice as much (with side SSD, Canon mount, side handle and Redvolt. You can use any SSD you want with BMC (no air in SSD prices). Also BMC has integrated touch LCD, though you usually need to use external monitor when shooting, but in many cases the integrated is plenty enough.


Scarlet doesn't have double the sensor size and higher frame rates. It has one of those at the time but not both (btw Scarlets sensor is cropped EPIC sensor and not double the size of BMC). BMC shoots RAW with dynamic range of 13. No difference there. HDRx is gimmick and that's why people rarely use it. With BMC you get free copy of full DaVinci Resolve which according to most people is superior software. Yes, you get what you paid for with Scarlet, but you definitelly get more than you paid for with BMC.


Jeez... we were comparing sensor sizes. Next time read more carefully what you are replying to.

And btw using S16 is in many occasions an artistic choise. You might not be familiar with the word "artistic", but it's in the dictionary, go check it out.
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Josh, who are you, remind me again?

Who are you, telling me that the word artistic is in the dictionary?
What is your authority on the topic.

Oh yes, you are the guy asking how to finance a documentary on jump starter so he can buy a red and shoot it with it.
You are also the guy asking here how to smuggle a RED camera purchased in the U.S. over the border to Europe to avoid taxes.

You seam like just an other guy with an opinion about something you only know by reading about it.
You don't own a RED Scarlet or a BMC camera, do you? Have you ever shot with both to have an educated opinion, or are you just watching youtube videos and read forums.

I am telling you this as, as somebody who runs a studio in NYC, that has produced contend that in the last 2 years alone, has been watched by more people than the population of your entire country.
Who owns a Scarlet and one of my employees owns a BMC, that he let me shoot with for a few days.

My statement is based on the facts gathered through my personal experience with the cameras, yours on a subjective perception of what your brain has put together reading online tech gutter press.

Saying that I have a fictional fantasy does not make much sense, as all fantasy is kinda fictional, if it was real it would not be fantasy.

Now when I say that RED put film out of business is because perhaps s35 film can be scanned at 4k.
RED put its first commercially available 4k raw cine camera on the market in 2007. Everyone else is still playing catch since.

Don't take my word for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_shot_in_digital
I count; 88 red, 77 arri, 62 sony, 36 panavision, 18 canon, 8 fcs, 7 viper (and that list starts at 1998 not in 2007)


Keep eyeballing camera specs, as you Josh are just a mouth, thats busy talking, and we don't care because we are to busy walking. You keep making speech bubbles, as we are to busy making paychecks.


///
 
Now back to our regular scheduled program...

In regards to this vs mode, the best I"ve seen on the net is from Marco Solario of One River Media.

Him and his crew at least took the camera out and tested it against (its intended competition) a Canon DSLR.

Here is the link http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?cat=415

The BMCC does great frames, and I am sure any serious professional can make that camera work.

I however have moved on and went with my first love :)

Still in honeymoon phase ;)
 
Sorry guys and gals, it's threads like this one that have run off many of the working professionals that used to contribute regularly to Reduser. Having to wade through all this hogwash and bickering gets really tiring. Why not give it a rest! Any modern camera is capable of delivering great results when used by talented people. If your camera is not giving you the results you desire, it's likely not your cameras fault, but yours! So rather than wasting time posting this hogwash, maybe your time would be better spent learning how to improve your skills. What do you say we get back to posts which are truly helpful to the Reduser community?

All the Best!

Dave
 
David W. Jones said:
Sorry guys and gals, it's threads like this one that have run off many of the working professionals that used to contribute regularly to Reduser. Having to wade through all this hogwash and bickering gets really tiring. Why not give it a rest! Any modern camera is capable of delivering great results when used by talented people. If your camera is not giving you the results you desire, it's likely not your cameras fault, but yours! So rather than wasting time posting this hogwash, maybe your time would be better spent learning how to improve your skills. What do you say we get back to posts which are truly helpful to the Reduser community?

All the Best!

Dave
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:attention9ha:
 
It's kinda fun following religious debates when the debates are within the same religion.
When they are between different beliefs, they are mostly senseless.

When applied to something as predictable, and similarily behaving as digital raw cameras, it becomes allmost funny...
 
Philipe Ratton said:
Please Jeff, close this thread, please!
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pfft. We don't need policing, just some maturity and self restraint.

I'm not terribly concerned with how this will be perceived outside of RedUser, though I think David is absolutely correct. This is exactly the kind of exchange that has legs. If folks hear of this and get the impression that RedUsers don't abide any bullshit then OK. If they think that it is unwise to come to Red's house and poke the users with a stick, even better. Some will just associate Red with assholes regardless and there isn't much we can do about that. It would be nicer if we weren't actually assholes though... at least that is the kind of community I like to be a part of, your attitudes will undoubtedly vary. :-|
 
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