Red Scarlet vs. BMC fightclub!

[Richard_JP]

Gotta agree with Josh. The Scarlet isn't a great deal. The BMC is. With the BMC you get a lot more camera than the price tag. With the Scarlet you get what you pay for and it could be argued that you get a little bit less. Hence the reason I rarely see the Scarlet being used on any productions. I think the fact that neither Jim or Jarred "big up" the Scarlet is a telling sign too. I think they will can it personally. And who would blame them, it's brought them nothing but headache and bad PR. However, if they don't make it upgradable, I think there will be a lot of upset people out there, as this was always one of there main selling points.

The Epic on the other hand is the best deal ever and even without the upgrade, it will still be one of the best cinema cameras for many years to come. To me, RED only makes one camera (according to their own ethos) and that is the Epic.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I really like how you broke apart my rant line by line, very nicely done lol...

I still like my overcranks, 4k is much less relevant to what I personally have been doing then say 60fps at 2k or even 120fps at 1kws (really love 48fps at 3k, gives me slowness and some level of rez still). I am more into web content and broadcast essentially so 4k is pie in the sky for me at the moment... Yes I saw the post about issues with upgrading the Scarlet, but its sort of irrelevant. Everyone traded their M to MX, their Red One to a Epic, who cares whether I end up with the same brain or not as long as there is an upgrade path at all....Even if its to executed returned Epics I wouldn't care. Its again not a major threat for me at the moment, if I can monetize fast enough I will be getting an Epic or Dragon regardless.

I thought long and hard about which to purchase because I am a relatively recent owner (bought in pre price drop). I basically got a Scarlet for the overcranks and the fact one day I could upgrade it or do 4k if it becomes relative to me, plus the fear of it being BMC's first attempt vs reds third attempt. It sure beats the DSLR I was using in either case. Had the price dropped before I got in I obviously would go for an Epic, but I didn't know what was coming down the line 4 or so months later so not much I can do at this point. I don't want to even sell my brain, unless I need to go for an Epic sooner then I can really pay for it. I'd rather keep it as a backup and buy Epic a little later I am thinking.

The reality is this show is in no way fair. Go compare the BMC to Alexa, same resolution, so the price should match right? That is a load of bs and we all know it... Can a soccer mom afford it or use it is not a realistic way to judge cinema cameras. This isn't DSLR's

Scarlet does overcranks only in lower resolutions. There are many cheaper cameras that do high(er) frame rates in same resolutions. And why would you even shoot with those lower resolutions? According to RED and most people here, your footage isn't future proof if it's shot in 1080p (not to even mention the ridiculous 1K [lower than 720p]).

BMD could have added overcranks in lower resolutions just like all other manufacturers do, but this is digital cinema camera and 720p is not cinema.

Undercranks are easily added later via firmware update.

With MFT mount you can basicly use any lens you want.


What kind of monitor Scarlet comes with?


Hey, you got one thing right.


I much rather buy MBC for 3K$, sell it for 2K$ year later and buy a whole new camera with new sensor for 3K$ than just buy a new sensor for around 10K$ (Scarlet).

Talking about doorstops, it seems that you missed Jarred's post where he said that Scarlet might not be upgradable.

Many Oscar winning (best pictures etc) movies have been shot with S16 size sensor in past few years. S16 vs S35 has been done already in the other BMC thread. You might want to look at that since I don't feel like repeating everything.


How about "3K for 3K$"? You remember, that motto RED had for 2/3 sensor Scarlet (btw 2/3 is smaller than the sensor BMC's uses and smaller than S16)? Are you saying RED used years developing camera for soccer moms too?



Are you asking why camera released in late 2012 was not used in films that were shot in 2010 and 2011?


It matches the image quality and that's what matters for most.

 

[Bob Gundu]

You and Josh are reflecting a generation of film wannabees. All your discussions reflect an insecurity of your personal investments in a technology that may bring little return. You continually criticize features and in the end it always boils down to cost. As a working professional, I invest in gear because I need it, not because I may have some job in the future so I better not spend too much because I could loose money if it doesn't work out.

When the Scarlet was announced, it offered some serious bang for relatively little cost. For the hobbyist, it is still a lot of money. For a working professional, it could be easily paid off with one job. You do not represent all the demographics for any camera. Neither do I. How can anyone make blanket statements about how Scarlet has been perceived in production environments? There are plenty people on this forum who have used it in actual productions. Just like the Canon 5D have. There is no right or wrong answer. So please start treating people on this forum with respect. If the RED cameras are not for you, that is totally cool, but you don't need to keep pounding your chest about how it's not right for you. One day when you actually invest in something, I hope you use your skills for something worthwhile.

Gotta agree with Josh. The Scarlet isn't a great deal. The BMC is. With the BMC you get a lot more camera than the price tag. With the Scarlet you get what you pay for and it could be argued that you get a little bit less. Hence the reason I rarely see the Scarlet being used on any productions. I think the fact that neither Jim or Jarred "big up" the Scarlet is a telling sign too. I think they will can it personally. And who would blame them, it's brought them nothing but headache and bad PR. However, if they don't make it upgradable, I think there will be a lot of upset people out there, as this was always one of there main selling points.

The Epic on the other hand is the best deal ever and even without the upgrade, it will still be one of the best cinema cameras for many years to come. To me, RED only makes one camera (according to their own ethos) and that is the Epic.

 

[Josh Snyder]

I really like how you broke apart my rant line by line, very nicely done lol...

I still like my overcranks, 4k is much less relevant to what I personally have been doing then say 60fps at 2k or even 120fps at 1kws (really love 48fps at 3k, gives me slowness and some level of rez still). I am more into web content and broadcast essentially so 4k is pie in the sky for me at the moment... Yes I saw the post about issues with upgrading the Scarlet, but its sort of irrelevant. Everyone traded their M to MX, their Red One to a Epic, who cares whether I end up with the same brain or not as long as there is an upgrade path at all....Even if its to executed returned Epics I wouldn't care. Its again not a major threat for me at the moment, if I can monetize fast enough I will be getting an Epic or Dragon regardless.

I thought long and hard about which to purchase because I am a relatively recent owner (bought in pre price drop). I basically got a Scarlet for the overcranks and the fact one day I could upgrade it or do 4k if it becomes relative to me, plus the fear of it being BMC's first attempt vs reds third attempt. It sure beats the DSLR I was using in either case. Had the price dropped before I got in I obviously would go for an Epic, but I didn't know what was coming down the line 4 or so months later so not much I can do at this point. I don't want to even sell my brain, unless I need to go for an Epic sooner then I can really pay for it. I'd rather keep it as a backup and buy Epic a little later I am thinking.

The reality is this show is in no way fair. Go compare the BMC to Alexa, same resolution, so the price should match right? That is a load of bs and we all know it... Can a soccer mom afford it or use it is not a realistic way to judge cinema cameras. This isn't DSLR's

Sony FS700 would have been the best option since 4K is not important to you but slow motion is and you shoot mostly for web and some broadcasting. FS700 is 4K S35 sensor camera with over 900fps in 10 second bursts. 240fps constant in 1080p. It will be updated to have 4K recording option too next year via firmware update.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/853273-REG/Sony_NEX_FS700_4K_Ready_High_Speed.html

You could update to EPIC from FS700 or any other camera you like.

 

[Scott Crawley]

The thing that would shock and excite me most is if I ever see BMCC footage used to good effect in the cinema. That might make me very happy for a huge number of people depending upon how it is used and with what degree of success. It seems highly possible. If 5D footage can be made to work then the BMCC very well could. Until then I see the BMCC as a student cinema camera and a fine internet production tool at a great price for a handsome package. Resolve and a cam for $3-4k is really cool. It just isn't a Scarlet.

If I were 20 I'd be overwhelmed with sweat at the possibility of owning one of those puppies. I feel very fortunate to have Scarlet now instead. Looking down on everyone clamoring for the Black Magic camera is kinda unseemly IMHO as is trying to piss on Scarlet because it is out of one's budget.

Can't we all just get along? Where's the love? How 'bout you guys have a big kiss? hehe

 

[dennys bisogno]

Humm I wonder what the Kid's name is? Jon, Jonny, Jole or maybe Joh......? :tongue_smilie:

I wil call him "Kill-Joy"

 

[Josh Snyder]

You and Josh are reflecting a generation of film wannabees. All your discussions reflect an insecurity of your personal investments in a technology that may bring little return.

I think it's pretty clear that it's the other way around. We talked about this in the other thread alrady. Scarlet resale price has dropped over 40% under a year. That means over 4000$. Cameras like BMC (including DSLR's etc) resale value drops about 30% in a year. That's less than 1000$ for BMC.

Low cost = low risk = BMC.

By the way I haven't invested in either RED or BMD.

You continually criticize features and in the end it always boils down to cost.

Of course it does. What would you say if someone says that he will buy a camera that is exactly the same as Scarlet, but shoots 240fps at 360p and has XLR inputs, but costs 10k$ more? Would you say that it's wise investment, or would you say that it would be wiser to buy normal Scarlet and inexpensive external audio recorder to get the XLR inputs?

I for example have been saying that there is no point to buy Scarlet because BMC can do what ever Scarlet does for me. Scarlet might have some better thought out features but I'm willing to work out those issues when I save so much money.

It always boils down to cost if you buy Scarlet. If it didn't you would be buying EPIC.

As a working professional, I invest in gear because I need it, not because I may have some job in the future so I better not spend too much because I could loose money if it doesn't work out.

When the Scarlet was announced, it offered some serious bang for relatively little cost. For the hobbyist, it is still a lot of money. For a working professional, it could be easily paid off with one job. You do not represent all the demographics for any camera. Neither do I. How can anyone make blanket statements about how Scarlet has been perceived in production environments? There are plenty people on this forum who have used it in actual productions. Just like the Canon 5D have. There is no right or wrong answer. So please start treating people on this forum with respect. If the RED cameras are not for you, that is totally cool, but you don't need to keep pounding your chest about how it's not right for you. One day when you actually invest in something, I hope you use your skills for something worthwhile.

If you shoot in daily basis and Scarlet works for you then good for you. I'm not saying BMC is better option for everyone. I'm saying it's better for most who are thinking buying one of these cameras.

I think he meant films where Scarlet was a-cam.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Again another very enticing offer out these days for my specific purposes. My "dslr" is a NexVg10 so I have some terrible emount glass already I can use with it. I even have been thinking of going phantom. Not sure what I will do long term, but for now the Scarlets fun and I'd like to go for Epic or Dragon... Just became a Miro tech and Alexa tech, been working as a DIT and Assist Editor mostly... I'm not married to any systems, cut in Avid, Adobe or Apple (fcps3 obviously). I just enjoy the technology regardless of branding, these days we have many great tools available, but financially I consider Red a safer bet based on how well the R1 did and how well used stuff sells for... So I threw it all on them for the time being with my own personal kit, but its frankly foolish to only use one tool so I like all the cameras/nles out there. I might even get a BMC one day, resolve is a good throw in! I just think the tech specs of the BMC is so far off then say Epic, Scarlet, Phantom, Alexa, and the criteria they are favoring is kinda utter bs, and regardless of our personal taste in tools/investments we know tech spec wise what tools are better in what situations

Sony FS700 would have been the best option since 4K is not important to you but slow motion is and you shoot mostly for web and some broadcasting. FS700 is 4K S35 sensor camera with over 900fps in 10 second bursts. 240fps constant in 1080p. It will be updated to have 4K recording option too next year via firmware update.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/853273-REG/Sony_NEX_FS700_4K_Ready_High_Speed.html

You could update to EPIC from FS700 or any other camera you like.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

There's lenghty review here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulKP8TAjrWw

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I think it's pretty clear that it's the other way around. We talked about this in the other thread alrady. Scarlet resale price has dropped over 40% under a year. That means over 4000$. Cameras like BMC (including DSLR's etc) resale value drops about 30% in a year. That's less than 1000$ for BMC.

Low cost = low risk = BMC.

By the way I haven't invested in either RED or BMD.

Josh, are you seriously stating what % the value of the BMC will go down in a year when they haven't even barely begun shipping it yet? Are you a part time psychic? I would love to see what the resale value is when the next gen BMC camera comes out which will likely be sooner than people think.

That aside...

What these cameras are worth depends on what you do with them. You're not investing in stock when you buy one of these cameras. You are investing in yourself by purchasing professional tools that allow you to do professional work.

Josh, I know you have never touched a BMC camera or any RED camera in your life. Have you ever used any professional camera before?

You spend all this time arguing with people and it seems to me you have had very little to no practical experience with any professional camera. You can only learn so much from what you read on the Internet. You need to get out there and make something. That's how you become successful.

Fighting on forums and taking pot shots at RED will get you nowhere.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Gotta agree with Josh. The Scarlet isn't a great deal. The BMC is. With the BMC you get a lot more camera than the price tag. With the Scarlet you get what you pay for and it could be argued that you get a little bit less. Hence the reason I rarely see the Scarlet being used on any productions. I think the fact that neither Jim or Jarred "big up" the Scarlet is a telling sign too. I think they will can it personally. And who would blame them, it's brought them nothing but headache and bad PR. However, if they don't make it upgradable, I think there will be a lot of upset people out there, as this was always one of there main selling points.

The Epic on the other hand is the best deal ever and even without the upgrade, it will still be one of the best cinema cameras for many years to come. To me, RED only makes one camera (according to their own ethos) and that is the Epic.

I agree. EPIC and BMC are the best deals there are at the moment. With EPIC there's already enough K's, DR, frame rates and so on that it can be used in almost every narrative film production for years to come. For documentary and one man crews it has some issues though (ISO and battery performances etc). Alexa is better for some projects and EPIC for others, but the price of Alexa is way too high that it could compete with the indie market. Alexa will become camera used only in those productions where money doesn't matter, if ARRI doesn't make big changes to their pricing.

I think RED was kinda forced to release Scarlet we have now. There was no time to start developing anything else after the failed 2/3 attempt. They promised that they will make Scarlet and when it was not possible to do 2/3 Scarlet like they had planned they had no other option but to make "crippled" EPIC. This way they could keep the manufacturing costs low as both cameras used mostly same parts and components. It didn't look like bad idea at first, but now that other manufacturers are coming with cheaper and cheaper 2.5K and 4K cameras the move they did with Scarlet seem to somewhat backfire. It messes up their pricings and update plans as we have seen. They obviously can't bump up the price for EPIC-X. Dragon EPIC is coming and it will be 25k$ for the brain. What are they going to do with the Scarlet upgrade? They promised that Scarlet will be updated, but if they update Scarlet to Dragon it will be at the same price level with Dragon EPIC at 25k$. They could make crippled 7k$ Dragon update so that new Scarlet brain price would be around 15k$, but I'm not sure how many would buy into that crippled sensor stuff anymore. Maybe the smartest thing would be to discontinue Scarlet-X as we know it, replace EPIC-X name with Scarlet-X and drop the price. No matter what, they will loose the sub 15k$ market because working Dragon Scarlet unit will be over 20k$ anyways. Not to even mention sub 10k$ or the sub 5k$ market that Scarlet was supposed to compete at first place.

If RED wants to compete in sub 15k$ market after the Scarlet update they need to come up with new more agressive pricing for Scarlet. But the sub 10k$ market has been lost if they don't come with a brand new camera.

 

[Andy White]

Wow - another thread that veers wildly from sensor size to cost to industry observations...

Josh, I suggested in another thread that you'd be better off renting Alexa/Epic/Scarlet (etc) to compare to a BMCC (if you can get your hands on one). There's really no substitute to a hands on. Looking at other people's footage is like watching a movie made by others - you simply don't know the level of skill/experience and money/budget that went both in front of (and behind) the camera.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

You and Josh are reflecting a generation of film wannabees. All your discussions reflect an insecurity of your personal investments in a technology that may bring little return. You continually criticize features and in the end it always boils down to cost. As a working professional, I invest in gear because I need it, not because I may have some job in the future so I better not spend too much because I could loose money if it doesn't work out.

When the Scarlet was announced, it offered some serious bang for relatively little cost. For the hobbyist, it is still a lot of money. For a working professional, it could be easily paid off with one job. You do not represent all the demographics for any camera. Neither do I. How can anyone make blanket statements about how Scarlet has been perceived in production environments? There are plenty people on this forum who have used it in actual productions. Just like the Canon 5D have. There is no right or wrong answer. So please start treating people on this forum with respect. If the RED cameras are not for you, that is totally cool, but you don't need to keep pounding your chest about how it's not right for you. One day when you actually invest in something, I hope you use your skills for something worthwhile.

Nailed it. I even pointed this out in the other thread.

To me it seemed like for awhile that Josh was defending it to the point of he was needing reassurance we'd think it's "good enough". I mean seriously. If he didn't defend it enough already. We already knew his opinion. Why would he keep going? He and Richard don't just seem like they're trying to convince us...also themselves.

 

[Peter Osinski]

In the past I've been critical of the way certain threads have been closed or deleted on reduser when discussing another camera, but in this case I will make an exception. RED please close this and the red vs bmc thread. You don't have to close all bmc threads, just any that josh has started to participate in.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

RED is an owner-operator model and ARRI has always been a renter-user model.
My guess is that now that Arri has gotten the shooters to drink the Alexa Kool-aid, they will soon offer new (larger sensor) models that will be priced to rent.

 

[Brian Merlen]

The M->MX and Red1->Epic programs didn't matter that the hardware changed Josh, why would it matter now? I am sure Red will think of someway to live up to Scarlet owners expectations of some sort of upgrade path. That in itself is an asset compared to buying different ecosystems and then reselling minus depreciation. A lot of the cameras you bring up also are great values as well, but in the end these are all tools and a good DP/DIT/AC will know all of them in the markets he/she works in. Plenty of people I know are owner ops in one brand, but want to work and in this economy will do shoots even if they didn't get a kit rental out of it...

 

[Mike Garrick]

IMO. This business can be divided into 2 camps those who talk about it & those who do it . It appears Josh is in the former not the later. Hence we should all talk about it A LOT more, anything to prolong the experience of talking instead of doing .

Talk is cheap, action is where the work & money is.

 

[Jason L]

but the price of Alexa is way too high that it could compete with the indie market. Alexa will become camera used only in those productions where money doesn't matter, if ARRI doesn't make big changes to their pricing.

This thread is killing me. Where money doesn't matter? In any production money matters. A ton of indie productions do use the Alexa becasue there's a thing called renting a camera. The Epic and Alexa rent for close to the same price, which is something it seems you don't know.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Nailed it.

I replied to him already. Could you point out the points in my reply you don't agree with?

In the past I've been critical of the way certain threads have been closed or deleted on reduser when discussing another camera, but in this case I will make an exception. RED please close this and the red vs bmc thread. You don't have to close all bmc threads, just any that josh has started to participate in.

If you don't like freedom of speech maybe you should start your own forum?

IMO. This business can be divided into 2 camps those who talk about & those who do it . It appears Josh is in the former not the later. Hence we should all talk about it A LOT more anything to prolong the experience of talking instead of doing .

Talk is cheap, action is where the work & money is.

Thank you for making such a great arguement against the points I've made. Your post added zero value to this thread.

This thread is killing me. Where money doesn't matter? In any production money matters. A ton of indie productions do use the Alexa becasue there's a thing called renting a camera. The Epic and Alexa rent for close to the same price, which is something it seems you don't know.

I was talking about the future. Not present.

 

[Andy White]

Giving up now... going to hide... I'm scared... :emote_couch: