Red Scarlet vs. BMC fightclub!

[James Falco]

Calling this a fight club is nothing but a sad joke.


Comparing BMC with RED Scarlet is like comparing a Honda Civic with a Humvee.


Ok, out of the box, it comes with a build in car stereo, air-condition, heated seats, air bags, it has better milage. So it wins, as its family friendly, cheeper insurance, less parking space, its more comfortable and cost way less. Oh, did I mention it comes also in blue and pink.


On the other hand the Humvee, out of the box, you can pack more people in it, you can attach a machine gun, surface to air missals, wireless telecommunication module. Trow it out of a helicopter from 100 feet with a parachute and drive of with it after landing. So for that price tag and the milage you get, no child seat compatibility, no fun bumper sticker options, it looses.




One is a very affordable Prosumer camera, the other is a truly professional, hi-end cine camera, by a company that put film cameras out of business. Till BMC gets half as many feature films under there belt as RED it does not get a shot at a title fight. Lol.


I personally think for what BMC costs, its a great camera, but money aside, there is nothing you can do with it, that you could not do with a Scarlet, but there is plenty you can't do with a BMC that you can with a Scarlet.


The only part where BMC is wining is price.
Scarlet has double the size of a sensor, higher frame rate options, shoots RAW with a dynamic range of 13.5 stops, HDRX option, has an extremely well developed raw motion file format, RED cine-X pro is free to everyone not only camera owners, in other words, you get what you paid for.


Now for everybody who keeps saying that there is Oscar wining movies shot on s16.
Please stop doing that in the context of digital cinema. They where shot on 16mm because film stock is cheeper than 35mm, not because its such a phenomenal format.
The film stock and lab cost of any feature film ever shot on s16, is still higher than the cost of a fully pimped out Epic.

///

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Talking about doorstops, it seems that you missed Jarred's post where he said that Scarlet might not be upgradable.

When did he say that?

 

[Josh Snyder]

When did he say that?

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90522-Scarlet-and-Dragon&p=1112478#post1112478

 

[Richard_JP]

When did he say that?

Here

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90522-Scarlet-and-Dragon&p=1112478#post1112478

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Josh,

Go buy one and shoot one.

Do you literally have nothing to do but get on RU and tell us how great a different camera is?

Seems like you need some work. I guess if you already have a BMCC and your still spending this much time on RU.....

 

[Josh Snyder]

Calling this a fight club is nothing but a sad joke.

Comparing BMC with RED Scarlet is like comparing a Honda Civic with a Humvee.

Ok, out of the box, it comes with a build in car stereo, air-condition, heated seats, air bags, it has better milage. So it wins, as its family friendly, cheeper insurance, less parking space, its more comfortable and cost way less. Oh, did I mention it comes also in blue and pink.

On the other hand the Humvee, out of the box, you can pack more people in it, you can attach a machine gun, surface to air missals, wireless telecommunication module. Trow it out of a helicopter from 100 feet with a parachute and drive of with it after landing. So for that price tag and the milage you get, no child seat compatibility, no fun bumper sticker options, it looses.

That's like comparing Mac and PC except the first one costs way more in this case, not way less. Still, many people use Mac's with great results.

One is a very affordable Prosumer camera, the other is a truly professional, hi-end cine camera, by a company that put film cameras out of business. Till BMC gets half as many feature films under there belt as RED it does not get a shot at a title fight. Lol.

Alexa is truly proessional hi-end camera. Scarlet is not. BMC is not either. But once again BMC delivers when it comes to image quality and that's what matters for most. Scarlet and BMC are cinema cameras, just take the hi-end out of it.

How many feature films (no zero budget b-movies) have been shot with Scarlet so far? This is BMC vs Scarlet remember? Not BMC vs RED. I will also bet that BMC will be used more in low budget movies as well as in major productions as a b-cam than Scarlet.

ARRI put film cameras out of business with Alexa. This, if you want to name one brand and camera. Reality is that ARRI, RED, Canon, Sony and few smaller players all were part of that. Though, in your fictional fantasy world things obviously look different.

I personally think for what BMC costs, its a great camera, but money aside, there is nothing you can do with it, that you could not do with a Scarlet, but there is plenty you can't do with a BMC that you can with a Scarlet

The only part where BMC is wining is price.

Like you said that's your personal opinion and yes there is. You can't get same kind of image out from Scarlet. Scarlet weighs twice as much (with side SSD, Canon mount, side handle and Redvolt. You can use any SSD you want with BMC (no air in SSD prices). Also BMC has integrated touch LCD, though you usually need to use external monitor when shooting, but in many cases the integrated is plenty enough.

Scarlet has double the size of a sensor, higher frame rate options, shoots RAW with a dynamic range of 13.5 stops, HDRX option, has an extremely well developed raw motion file format, RED cine-X pro is free to everyone not only camera owners, in other words, you get what you paid for.

Scarlet doesn't have double the sensor size and higher frame rates. It has one of those at the time but not both (btw Scarlets sensor is cropped EPIC sensor and not double the size of BMC). BMC shoots RAW with dynamic range of 13. No difference there. HDRx is gimmick and that's why people rarely use it. With BMC you get free copy of full DaVinci Resolve which according to most people is superior software. Yes, you get what you paid for with Scarlet, but you definitelly get more than you paid for with BMC.

Now for everybody who keeps saying that there is Oscar wining movies shot on s16.

Please stop doing that in the context of digital cinema. They where shot on 16mm because film stock is cheeper than 35mm, not because its such a phenomenal format.
The film stock and lab cost of any feature film ever shot on s16, is still higher than the cost of a fully pimped out Epic.

///

Jeez... we were comparing sensor sizes. Next time read more carefully what you are replying to.

And btw using S16 is in many occasions an artistic choise. You might not be familiar with the word "artistic", but it's in the dictionary, go check it out.

 

[Andrew Usher]

Time to utilise the ignore user option i think!!!

 

[Josh Snyder]

Josh,

Go buy one and shoot one.

Do you literally have nothing to do but get on RU and tell us how great a different camera is?

Seems like you need some work. I guess if you already have a BMCC and your still spending this much time on RU.....

I haven't started these BMC threads here. Why do you keep coming to read these threads? It's not like BMC discussion is all over the forums. It's in these two threads. Don't come and read these threads if it bothers you.

Like I've said before I don't have BMC yet.

I find it hilarious that no matter how stupid and false an arguement is, you and others don't comment on it at all if it's pro RED/Scarlet. But then when someone makes valid points and corrects those false claims, you start calling that user a troll and whatnot.

Time to utilise the ignore user option i think!!!

You mean that thing what religious people do when they hear someone talking about evolution?

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90522-Scarlet-and-Dragon&p=1112478#post1112478

Not exactly how I understand it, though he's not saying the opposite. If this indeed is the outcome of the Dragon update, I would sure hope Scarlet-users upgrade would be to a Epic Mysterium-X, othervise I would have bought a product on false terms.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Some people asked BMC footage. This short clip was shot by a guy from bmcuser and graded by a guy who posts at both reduser and bmcuser.

http://vimeo.com/56497935

That is high grade digital cinema image right there. Stunning film like image.

Haters (redusers, well most of them) gonna hate.

Here's another one: http://vimeo.com/56314318

And one more: http://vimeo.com/55887965

 

[Josh Snyder]

Not exactly how I understand it, though he's not saying the opposite. If this indeed is the outcome of the Dragon update, I would sure hope Scarlet-users upgrade would be to a Epic Mysterium-X, othervise I would have bought a product on false terms.

To me Jarreds post is clear sign that Dragon update is not coming to Scarlet but instead you can upgrade Scarlet for EPIC-X (for extra 10K$) or Dragon EPIC (for extra 16K$), or something like that. I don't think Jarred would post that they have problems with the Scarlet Dragon upgrade otherwise.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I haven't started these BMC threads here. Why do you keep coming to read these threads? It's not like BMC discussion is all over the forums. It's in these two threads. Don't come and read these threads if it bothers you.

Like I've said before I don't have BMC yet.

I find it hilarious that no matter how stupid and false an arguement is, you and others don't comment on it at all if it's pro RED/Scarlet. But then when someone makes valid points and corrects those false claims, you start calling that user a troll and whatnot.


You mean that thing what religious people do when they hear someone talking about evolution?

I'm just saying go buy a camera and start getting some work done. We all know your thoughts on the BMC camera. I've even admitted i'm curious but it's nothing i'd buy at this point in time and I can't find one to rent where I'm at.

I've guessed you've missed it. I've even asked you several times to go out and shoot then show us.

 

[Bob Gundu]

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Some people asked BMC footage. This short clip was shot by a guy from bmcuser and graded by a guy who posts at both reduser and bmcuser.

http://vimeo.com/56497935

That is high grade digital cinema image right there. Stunning film like image.

Haters (redusers, well most of them) gonna hate.

While I think this grade if good. I've seen similarly well graded images here. Cruise into some threads around here and it's not hard to find. At the same time it doesn't stand out to me as something that blows my mind away. Drop RED footage into Davinci and i'm sure in the right hands the same look from the same shoot could be acquired. That is the great thing about raw. And both cameras have it.

Is that even necessary to say? You're on a RED board. No one is really hating. We're just stating the facts. 4k vs 2.5k, vs 10k vs 3K, immediately shipping vs. who knows when, upgrade of some kind vs. none at all. It's up to you and others where the value is.

 

[Jared Knecht]

Great discussion! Try not to belittle others as it does not serve the purpose of this topic. There is a lot of opinions out there and no one way is the right way.

Dont forget, these cameras are simply tools.

In saying that... I am a reduser. I have chosen red. This is reduser. Lets simply prove why.
Healthy discussion here

 

[Scott Crawley]

To me Jarreds post is clear sign that Dragon update is not coming to Scarlet but instead you can upgrade Scarlet for EPIC-X (for extra 10K$) or Dragon EPIC (for extra 16K$), or something like that. I don't think Jarred would post that they have problems with the Scarlet Dragon upgrade otherwise.

I'm under the impression that they are still working on it and considering all options... including the possibility that it may turn out to be unfeasible. It ain't over until they say it is, and Red has not yet made a definitive announcement. We all just have to wait and see what their solution is.

For now Dragon can not be part of the argument for or against in this particular contest any more than a next gen. BMCC sensor can be.

 

[Josh Snyder]

While I think this grade if good. I've seen similarly well graded images here. Cruise into some threads around here and it's not hard to find. At the same time it doesn't stand out to me as something that blows my mind away. Drop RED footage into Davinci and i'm sure in the right hands the same look from the same shoot could be acquired. That is the great thing about raw. And both cameras have it.

Is that even necessary to say? You're on a RED board. No one is really hating. We're just stating the facts. 4k vs 2.5k, vs 10k vs 3K, immediately shipping vs. who knows when, upgrade of some kind vs. none at all. It's up to you and others where the value is.

I've seen many very well graded Red One films and well graded EPIC films too, but they have different look comparing to Alexa. Scarlet has different look compared to BMC too. If you shoot and grade your footage (be it Alexa or EPIC for example) to look specific way, you can't make the other camera to look exactly the same. Different sensor, different ways of handling the date etc makes the difference.

I'm not saying that BMC produces the best image out there (it doesn't). I'm saying it produces high grade digital cinema image which is closer to the organic look of Alexa than EPIC.

No one is hating? Really?

How about these facts; 2K is the present, will be for a while and 2.5K is well enough for it. How many of your projects are you going to be re-releasing five years from now in 4K in major cinemas that will have 4K projectors? Human eye can't see the difference between 2K and 4K from the distances home theaters are being watched.

If you need camera now obviously get Scarlet or something else. This has been mentioned plenty of times.

I will quote myself from earlier post since I don't feel like rewriting everything for every poster who can't read what has been discussed before:

I much rather buy MBC for 3K$, sell it for 2K$ year later and buy a whole new camera with new sensor for 3K$ than just buy a new sensor for around 10K$ (Scarlet).

Talking about doorstops, it seems that you missed Jarred's post where he said that Scarlet might not be upgradable.

Your "upgrade of some kind" = paying big bucks for new sensor only or buying a whole new camera. Hardly an upgrade in my book.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I've seen many very well graded Red One films and well graded EPIC films too, but they have different look comparing to Alexa. Scarlet has different look compared to BMC too. If you shoot and grade your footage (be it Alexa or EPIC for example) to look specific way, you can't make the other camera to look exactly the same. Different sensor, different ways of handling the date etc makes the difference.

I'm not saying that BMC produces the best image out there (it doesn't). I'm saying it produces high grade digital cinema image which is closer to the organic look of Alexa than EPIC.

No one is hating? Really?

How about these facts; 2K is the present, will be for a while and 2.5K is well enough for it. How many of your projects are you going to be re-releasing five years from now in 4K in major cinemas that will have 4K projectors? Human eye can't see the difference between 2K and 4K from the distances home theaters are being watched.

If you need camera now obviously get Scarlet or something else. This has been mentioned plenty of times.

I will quote myself from earlier post since I don't feel like rewriting everything for every poster who can't read what has been discussed before:



Your "upgrade of some kind" = paying big bucks for new sensor only or buying a whole new camera. Hardly an upgrade in my book.

If it means you get a sweet deal on the Epic would you still be complaining about that?

 

[Josh Snyder]

I'm under the impression that they are still working on it and considering all options... including the possibility that it may turn out to be unfeasible. It ain't over until they say it is, and Red has not yet made a definitive announcement. We all just have to wait and see what their solution is.

For now Dragon can not be part of the argument for or against in this particular contest any more than a next gen. BMCC sensor can be.

Yes I'm sure they are still working and thinking how they can keep up with the sub 10k$ market (sub 5k$ in the near future). The big bucks are there and it seems that with the new update Scarlet is going to be at least 21k$ camera after the sensor upgrade and including other pieces needed to have a working unit. If Scarlet gets updated to EPIC-X then RED's chepest camera is 25k$ for a working unit. Interesting to see what will happen.

Agreed. They are still working on the Dragon and no one hasn't seen a single frame from it.

 

[Josh Snyder]

If it means you get a sweet deal on the Epic would you still be complaining about that?

I'm not the one who is complaining here, I'm the one who is defending.

If you pay as much for the EPIC as it costs now I don't think it's "sweet deal". That's like buying an EPIC now. Why buy Scarlet and wait one year for EPIC upgrade if you can get EPIC now for the same price that Scarlet + upgrade would cost?