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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED ONE / DSMC 1 upgrade program finally has an end date.

Jeffrey Loewe said:
Jarred,



Genuine question here. With the full move over to DSMC 2, is it possible to move over to a Scarlet-W form an Epic Dragon? Is it possible to create some kind of program to allow this to happen?

....

More than anything I'd just hate to lose my camera because it breaks and be left in the dust.
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Epic Dragon is not part of this announcement. Business as usual...
 
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Only 3Years old Epic MX will Not be repairable? Think of a car... 3years old and the manufakturer called that he has no Parts left to repair it and you should buy a New one? Its hard to trust this Company anymore! Very disappointed! Its a no Go!
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
Jarred,



Genuine question here. With the full move over to DSMC 2, is it possible to move over to a Scarlet-W form an Epic Dragon? Is it possible to create some kind of program to allow this to happen? I've asked my rep as well and he said he'd email back after checking and never did. I know most people can afford to keep moving up the ladder, but that just isn't the case for me. I love working with RED's and would love to jump over to DSMC 2, yet can't afford the Epic-W or other options. I'd hate to see the camera I've already purchased be a loss if it breaks and is unrepairable, and would love to keep shooting on RED. However a 15-25K jump just isn't in the budget. And in all honesty I really only use 4K most the time.

I get this is a strange question, and I get it may seem like a lateral move. However there are many benefits I see even moving over to a Scarlet-W. I get that it can't be free, but can there be some option for those who aren't able to make the jump to Epic-W as awesome as it would be to do?

More than anything I'd just hate to lose my camera because it breaks and be left in the dust.
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Hey Jeffrey,

I know it's probably not what you're looking to hear and I usually keep my 2 cents in my pocket in these situations but the resale value of an epic dragon, used, may still seem to be higher than a scarlet-w, or at least comparable. So if you wanted to go to scarlet-w I guess that may be an option. I'm sure you've already thought of this but it never hurts to throw it out there. And if you had the mini-mags with your dragon, that to me was one of the most costly aspects of the package. Like I said, just spitballing here. Best of luck!
 
Hey guys,

I understand there's quite a bit of frustration but also some positive news about this announcement. I'll get address everything I can think of.

So... Let's gather around a few facts.
There's Red ONE M or MX owners who are among the very first ones who joined the RED idea and got their Titanium Rs and the few lucky ones that were allowed in before the initial deposits ended on January 2007, let's call them Group A.
Then there's everyone else that purchased once the initial preopders were fulfilled (late 2008 or early 2009 if I recall correctly), let's call them Group B.
At some point it was deemed that the ONE body was not efficient for Red to stay true to making Obsolescence Obsolete so they shifted to the DSMC form factor (Epic, Scarlet)
And Epic came out and EVERYONE from Groups A and B were offered several upgrade paths among which were the options to keep the Red One, consider it "executed" and no longer alllowed to participate in upgrade programs if any came up in the future so those became A-e and B-e but at the same time were allowed to get an Epic system at a discount. Then everyone else either held on to their ONEs (knowing there might be something else in the future) or traded them in for an Epic (again the ONEs in users hands were considered "executed" so this announcement no longer affects them)
In the decade since ONE came out, many from A, A-e, B or B-e either held on to their cameras happily making pretty pictures or sold them in the second hand marketplace.
On top of that, ONEs with the Mysterium sensor were allowed to upgrade to the Mysterium-X (same as Epic-X)
NOTE: I know the upgrade path to Epic had many many different levels but that's just the bottom line.
Then there's everyone that purchased a Red ONE (let's call them Group C) while they were still available from Red or from the 2nd hand marketplace (either "executed" or not)
These are the ones most likely to feel short-changed if they didn't do their due dilligence as it was a well known fact that these cameras were being phased out.

Back in oh.... October 2016 (I think?) Red offered the latest upgrade option for RED Camera owners and NOT A SINGLE ONE was left out, not even the "executed" ones!!!
And now Jarred is finally announcing that the grace period for that upgrade path of all ONEs out there will be over 1 year after it started.
But again (from what Brent mentioned) there's the suggestion of a possibility for a future sensor replacement option with Dragon sensor in case of any damage.
So ONE owners still on the fence can always sell that body to someone who wants to invest and trade it in for a DSMC2.

So, this is the history of a Red ONE camera:
2007 Released with a Mysterium sensor.
2010 Upgrade/Trade-in to Epic in various stages AND/OR Upgrade Sensor to MX
2016 Trade-in for a DSMC2
2017 End of life a decade later... But is it really the end?

One thing to seriously consider, this is a piece of electronics we are talking about. And much like a computer it is likely to be superseded and become obsolete the moment it goes to market or at least use the 6 months rule that applies to computers.
But since it is targeted at the professional market, I have a very simillar scenario to compare it to.
Professionals in the movie industry are likely to invest in computer systems (for NLE, compositing, VFX, etc) that cost just about as much (A decent Boxx workstation goes for $14K) and you could be lucky if you can find parts and keep it running for 5 years at most! Speaking from experience.
So having that many upgrade options is unprecendeted in any market.

It is understandable that not everyone is in the same boat. Some cameras are go to places with HUGE budgets and some to indie users but while this is an investment, it is prudent to realize what it is you are buying. This is not a house or a car. These are delicate electronics in a package that will last as long as possible in a world where new things come out at a moment's notice. Red is only liable for as long as the waranty lasts.
Everything after that is out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that we are expressing our frustration is only made possible by the existence of this forum.
We could always rant that Canon or Nikon is not offering any parts for their original flagship DSLR that cost almost as much as a Red ONE back in the day, but even they phase out models after a decade or less. I still have my EOS 1Ds mk2 and I'm lucky if I can find parts that match in the second hand market or through 3rd party manufacturers!

A bit of information in lieu of a disclaimer:
I got my Red ONE with a Mysterium Sensor, then I was offered an upgrade to the Epic and I took it while keeping my ONE. So I ended up "buying" an Epic while getting a discount to the total amount spent for the ONE body and I got free accessories for the Epic too! Then that executed ONE (which was still in my hands as a gift camera from Red since the money spent for it counted towards the Epic and I could double my production work) got an upgrade to the same sensor as the Epic and I had a matching pair of A and B cameras for a production.
Then Red offered the DSMC2 trade in (Oct 2016) and it was Obsolescence Obsolete once more!
Now, call it what you will but I have no desire to give up my Red ONE, it still makes pretty pictures, it keeps running for as long as I treat it well, and as an End of Life product after a decade it is now a dear friend that refused to be executed time and time again.
Thank you Red for this wonderful gift!

??? SERIOUSLY??? I mean, WOW, that Red ONE is an immortal camera!!! Seriously, Brent, can the system handle the Dragon? If that is true, forget obsollecence, Jim and Jarred made the word lose all meaning.

Well, that's what I read into this.
I hope it helps! :)

EDIT:
Jarred Land said:
Scarlet-W is the cheaper upgrade path to get into DSMC-2, $12,500 for each body and you get to keep your old camera, which you could ebay which should get back enough cash to cover of most of the new modules and media.
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Wait, WHAT? I thought with that Red Owner Pricing program we'd have to trade-in and part with our beloved ones. (scratches head)
Jarred I hope you are well aware that even if someone was sitting on a Red ONE and simply going for every upgrade option then you have actually gifted them the initial price of a ONE $17k ($8.5k discount on the Epic Stage 2 and $8.5K if you sold the camera on the market) + a discount on the upgrade to MX + $10K discount towards a DSMC2 + the value of a ONE system with accessories that one can sell in the 2nd hand marketplace (let's call it $5K ) + value of some accessories for the One and the Epic when each was initially released... So in all honesty, I've lost count!
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I can only speak from personal experience but another thing I wanted to mention is that RED has treated me amazingly well over the years. They have bent over backwards to help me in jams, they brought a water soaked RED back to life (for only $600), and have always treated me like I'm family. So, I just want to express my appreciation for all of the cool things RED has done for me over the years.
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+1 to this!

Great customer service!

David
 
Marinus Brückmann said:
Only 3Years old Epic MX will Not be repairable? Think of a car... 3years old and the manufakturer called that he has no Parts left to repair it and you should buy a New one? Its hard to trust this Company anymore! Very disappointed! Its a no Go!
Click to expand...

The Epic MX was released seven years ago.

For reference, the original iPhone was released 10 years ago.

As an Epic Dragon owner, the writing is on the wall for me as well. Eventually, there will come a time where RED will know longer support my camera either. But seven years worth of support for a super high end and incredibly specialized piece of bleeding edge technology is fucking impressive as is.

And if your camera does break in an unfixable way, Brent has stated that your camera will be upgraded instead of becoming a doorstop. Remember, RED always takes care of its customers, provided their customers are level headed and polite to them :)
 
I encourage people to compare RED's approach to that of other camera companies. I have a couple of old video and still cameras that still work but are pretty much obsolete. Do I think JVC or Canon is going to give me an upgrade program? They work, but do I have assurance that should they break, the respective companies could or would fix them (even for a fee)? I don't. That's just the way it is. In some ways, dealing with RED causes a little more anxiety because you find yourself hoping for upgrades (and then you have to come up with the $$) while you know for sure the other companies won't offer that.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
Just because there are warnings doesn't mean people have an unlimited amount of money to jump on the train every time it comes around... Its a shame that when people ask questions and don't jump in line immediately it is considered "negative".
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I honestly understand where your thoughts (and everyone else's) are coming from. The problem here is that this is not really a decision that the company can make for you, as I read the message fairly clearly as "the parts are obsolete and manufacturers will not be supplying them anymore." It's kind of the same mentality as the "build more machines to make Dragon sensors" or "build new machines to manufacture Helium because that's what's next anyway" problem RED encountered when Raven took off. It's better to invest in the new technology, spend your money wisely... More cost-effective. They tried their best to get everyone on board and keep everyone happy - especially the old guys.

Maybe I'm so used to the Apple hardware ecosystem, where we effectively only have 5-7 years after the end of that product's manufacturing to source any needed repair parts. Vintage and EOL aren't there because the company doesn't have their customers in mind, they're in-place because technology advances, new machines are needed, and space / money is so limited with keeping old technology endeavors alive. Sensors, components, processors - they're not as easy as making a brick of metal to pop a car.

The negative comments definitely do arise, we can all read through the lines. Though - as someone else put it earlier (and the thought I was trying to get out), RED will always be a community-based company. They're going to find a way to help you either way, whether it's continuously offering generous upgrade programs - or trying to fix your old camera by putting new technology in it (for what it may have cost you for the old parts anyway - sometimes even cheaper). We're all here to make great content, and I don't expect them to throw a complete wrench in that process.
 
Marinus Brückmann said:
Only 3Years old Epic MX will Not be repairable? Think of a car... 3years old and the manufakturer called that he has no Parts left to repair it and you should buy a New one? Its hard to trust this Company anymore! Very disappointed! Its a no Go!
Click to expand...

Glad you brought that example up.

GM and Chrysler ( as well as Mercedes since you are in Germany ) have a general policy to produce between (depending on what part ) 5 and 7 years worth of direct inventory repair stock from when they manufacture parts for their vehicles. A lot of that inventory unfortunately is taken away at the beginning for some countries like Turkey that have laws for a certain amount of parts must be on hand for repair.

It's why if your car does break down and its older than a couple years your dealer usually needs to call around to various part warehouses to find parts.. to find what ever is left over.

And remember, it is an easier problem for them, because they make millions of parts in some cases.. And then there are also 3rd parties that manufacture parts as a specialty for older cars.

Apple is another example. In 2016 year they announced they would no longer repair most of their products manufactured ( not the sold date, the manufactured date ) including Macbooks or Mac Minis before 2011, pretty much all Ipods up to the 5th generation, Iphone 3G, etc. .. because they ran out of parts. Apple's policy is also 5-7 years.

RED M cameras started manufacturing 10 years ago and MX cameras started manufacturing 7 years ago.

So yeah.. don't trust us. That's cool. But also don't trust all of them. Meh. Might as well not trust anyone. Everyone is obviously out to get you!

It really doesn't matter how you feel though... It is technically impossible to make circuit boards that we made 5 years ago. As I mentioned, most of the components on those boards go end of life from the vendor within 6 months after they are made ( technology ) and sometimes the new generation part is not compatible with the old parts.

But regardless... you are reading way too deep into what this all means. It just means if something breaks on our first couple cameras you MAY not be able to get a repair with the same version new part replaced. Which really doesn't mean much because the cost to repair some things are more expensive then getting something better anyways. And we will continue to fix things for as long as we can.
 
Deleted the posting.
 
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That sounds like a totally reasonable request.

The pre-owned market is probably the most effected by this descion. The selling price of an MX camera will plummet without support from RED, and people who just bought, or people who are just trying to sell, will be badly effected.

Hopefully RED can come up with something to make everyone happy without going bankrupt!
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
That sounds like a totally reasonable request.

The pre-owned market is probably the most effected by this descion. The selling price of an MX camera will plummet without support from RED, and people who just bought, or people who are just trying to sell, will be badly effected.

Hopefully RED can come up with something to make everyone happy without going bankrupt!
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It's affecting DSMC 1 including Dragons. I was looking at the option of selling an entire Epic Dragon kit to move over to something in DSMC 2 with the upgrade still being out of reach and no one is buying. So the option of selling and buying a lesser camera doesn't really even seem like a possible route, unless you basically give your camera away sadly.

I get that things move forward, but it just doesn't seem like trying to sell a DSMC 1 to get DSMC 2 will work. Maybe more time is needed.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
It's affecting DSMC 1 including Dragons. I was looking at the option of selling an entire Epic Dragon kit to move over to something in DSMC 2 with the upgrade still being out of reach and no one is buying. So the option of selling and buying a lesser camera doesn't really even seem like a possible route, unless you basically give your camera away sadly.

I get that things move forward, but it just doesn't seem like trying to sell a DSMC 1 to get DSMC 2 will work. Maybe more time is needed.
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Uh oh. That's not good to hear. Though, I guess I'm not surprised that the FUD based panic is effecting DSMC1 dragon prices as well. But according to the timeline Epic Dragons should still be serviceable till about 2020 or 2021. Plenty of time to get an ROI from a 25-40k purchase.
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
Uh oh. That's not good to hear. Though, I guess I'm not surprised that the FUD based panic is effecting DSMC1 dragon prices as well. But according to the timeline Epic Dragons should still be serviceable till about 2020 or 2021. Plenty of time to get an ROI from a 25-40k purchase.
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Absolutely! ROI isn't the question here. Nor is the servicing. Its just wanting to get over to DSMC 2 since this is the last chance to do any kind of trade in. I get why the upgrade to the Epic-W is the cost it is, and the value is there. But I keep reading sell your DSMC 1 kit to get a DSMC 2 kit. I just don't see it being a realistic option to get to DSMC 2 unless you're selling it at the cost of the body of a Scarlet-W.
 
Yeah I see what you are saying. It's a really tough decision. Especially because the epic dragon is such a good freaking camera hahaha.
 
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