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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED NAB Speculation thread...

I'm just saying... for all those skeptics and fear mongers... DO NOT fear the competition! That's all! Stand tall. Stand proud. You've made the RIGHT choice... you'll see!
(Bob, I say this as I'm literally running towards a hill! I don't think my camo is blending well!)

I hope to see you around... I'll be EVERYWHERE! I got hired to do "on site" reviews of the "coolest" gear I can find! I've already contacted a TON of manufacturers... there is some cool stuff being released this year! This is going to be a fun week!

 
I don't fear the F55... :) Rather curious about it really. :)
Looking forward to whatever RED comes up with!

And I hope it is:

RedRay with infrastructure (ODEMAX as lined up in December or a very similar structure)
RedLaser, now in 4k
Ready to move!
Re-designed Epic Dragon (not upgrade) with proxy-recording and dual monitors built in + a bit more accessible ports.
Some wizz-kid found out how to do GPU debayering and decompression even on the RED files.

All ready to move out the door, with the dragon-upgrade program starting in May!

:)

But whatever it is, I guess it's gonna be great fun!
 
hoping to get a scarlet-> dragon price point...
 
Roger Valdes said:
Red's gonna get their ass kicked by the 4k alexa.

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I can't tell if you are serious or not. If Alexa is releasing a 4K camera, I'd be curious what their price point would be...considering a current Alexa is $60k plus. I wonder if the price would clear $100k.

On price alone, a 6K Dragon stands to be very, very competitive.
 
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I'm stuck shooting back in NYC, when NAB starts but what I'm hoping to hear.

Panavision's rummored 70mm digital camera, would love to see that in action. All other non RED cameras sony, canon I couldn't really care about, except any updates on the Alexa or something all new from ARRI. Since I shoot on the Alexa quite a bit. Maybe Panasonic will finally reveal something worth looking into. But don't care about a c200 rumor or another midpoint Sony camera.

MacPro update please? Don't wanna hear more FCPX jibber jabber.

Most of all, I'm hoping for scarlet trade in info and pricing. Or else it's time to just buy a epic. :) let us know RED!
 
Jon Carr said:
Panavision's rummored 70mm digital camera, would love to see that in action.
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I'm with you on this. I'm very interested in all 70mm digital camera developments. Especially curious what RED has up their sleeves. I've built an entire Hasselblad collection of lenses in anticipation. Last step is to get them modded...
 
Roger Valdes said:
Red's gonna get their ass kicked by the 4k alexa.



Click to expand...

Heh, heh, good one. But instead of Alexa looking ahead to overtaking RED, they might be better served to turn and defend against Sony and others who are bent on kicking THEIR ass. 6k Dragon with 18 stops dynamic range... that should hold off any pretenders for awhile.
 
Speculation, my favorite sport! hehe

Speculation, my favorite sport! hehe

IMO, as we stand today, the value proposition of the Sony F55 is the first legitimate contender to Epic/Scarlet. I won't be the least surprised if RED responds to that challenge at NAB by jumping well ahead once again.

I still remember checking out the Sony F23 at the BandPro NAB booth in 2007 and laughing out loud at how ridiculous it was - huge, heavy, expensive, 2/3" CCDs behind a prism, SR tape media that required a $100K deck, etc. Five years later (2012) they were showing the F65 which was under $100K with EVF & recorder, but still oversized with a daunting post footprint.

NAB 2013 just might mark the beginning of a new era, if so, the RED booth is likely to be the epicenter (pardon the pun).

BTW - since this is a speculation thread, I actually think the idea that RED will do a ground up redesign of the camera makes sense. Why? Modularity has advantages but its not a panacea. The long lead time for the Meizler, power issues on the Pro I/O, size/weight of the quad battery module, dumb adapter that adds length and costs $300, the long wait for the +1 monitor adapter that requires an HDMI pigtail, etc. Moreover, the modular approach reinforces the FUD talking point of the RED as a science project and can confuse folks who don't use the Epic or Scarlet regularly. I could be off base, but my reading of the tea leaves suggests that RED put out the +1 module and is offering a fan upgrade to insure the current Epic/Scarlet form factor has a future, but the real future is a redesign that is going to be revealed at NAB

As noted by others, the RED ecosystem is seen as a major step forward to folks used to 35mm film workflows, and as needlessly complex to those used to camcorders. I wouldn't fault RED if their mantra was focused on "a legitimate successor to film" and that making yet another camcorder was not their goal. Fair enough. That said, in order to achieve the kind of unit sales numbers that allow for economies of scale that lead to attractive price points - buyers need to have a rig flexible enough to rent out on a wide variety of projects.

FWIW, if a ground up redesign is too ambitious, I agree with folks like Toia that a module similar to the Pro I/O with some of the Meizler features - but not the size and cost - could really make the platform suit a lot more use cases. How about $10K for a combination Dragon sensor upgrade and redesigned Pro I/O rear module along the lines of Toia's concept that included proper connecters, power distro tap, proxy media, wireless video transmitter and could attach directly to the brain? Mix in a 4K live output and Bob's your uncle.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair is, as usual, the voice of reason, experience and vast intelligence, BUT I would like to bring two important subjects into the equation:

1- Color Accuracy. The F23 was indeed a monster, but as a 3 chip design, it had UNMATCHED colorimetry that is, to this day, amazing to behold for those like me who work underwater, where color rendition is EVERYTHING. Granted, that is a result of the 3 chip design, but in truth, none of the single sensor Bayer cameras released since, including the RED ONE and the EPIC have come anywhere near that color accuracy and predictable rendition. Skin tones are one thing, but the ability to squeeze every single ounce of color out of dark areas is king as far as I'm concerned. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the EPIC fares even worse than the ONE in this respect under certain conditions. If you head over to the "Bubble Blowers" thread on the Red Discussion section, you'll find frequent posts of people complaining about abnormal color renditions out of the EPIC, and trust me, those people do know how to shoot underwater. So, for those who shoot in natural environments where scarce lighting and other inherent factors attempt against accurate and predictable color rendition, it is IMPERATIVE that we have single sensor cameras that match and surpass the quality of those 3 chip designs. Again, FWIW, I have already seen F55 underwater footage and it is undeniably better than the EPIC, while the F65 is worlds ahead in that department. And no, I am not putting RED down, I am militant and partisan to the extreme, but as Jim frequently concedes that RED has many faults, I am pointing this one out because it is TRULY important for many of us.

2- Size over pixel count. Yes, yes, yes, resolution is important and one of the cornerstones of the RED philosophy, but as we've moved up from 4K to 5K and now to 6K, the actual sensor size has grown very little, which may be fine for those entrenched in the S35 size ecosystem, but not all that meaningful for others that would rather give up a couple K in exchange for a bigger sensor. You want a truly revolutionary step? Then give us a full frame sensor, a 36 mmx 24 mm imager, even if it is only 4K. I'll take it in a heartbeat, and so would the thousands of underwater shooters out there, as well as the many more who shoot music videos and commercials. Why? For one, a whole plethora of lenses that are not so wide at S35 become now super wide, but with much less distortion, faster apertures and better prices. Remember, a 14mm is as wide on full frame as an 8mm is on S35. Consequently, nature shooters whose bread and butter is macro now can get the same results from a 50mm lens on FF as they would a 75mm on S35. Finally, for those who want nothing but shallow DOF, you can get it much more easily on the bigger sensor without having to stop down to ridiculous apertures. And while a full frame sensor won't be for everybody, it will be exactly what the doctor ordered for a VERY large group of people. Sony already showed a crappy FF camcorder, and I've heard through the grapevine they will release a 4K version before year's end. That will force many a S35 user to jump ship, however much they love their REDs, because in the end, it is about the best tool for the job.

I find the idea of different sensor sizes for different users much more appealing than a sensor that keeps engorging itself with more and more rows of pixels but ultimately remains, in optical terms, the same beast. That is, of course, my opinion, which may be relevant to nobody but me...
 
Thanks for the props Rudi. I agree that the CMOS/Bayer single plane sensor approach has some compromises, particularly color rendition, but I respect the tradeoff.

I always felt like the S35-ish sensor sizing was the right target because great images start with great optics and, perhaps sadly, many of those great lenses are designed for S35 coverage. Based on the limited notes on the Dragon released so far, it seems like RED is trying to avoid creating a sensor size at 6K that severely limits lens options. While I sympathize with the UW folk (and other specialty use cases) who could benefit from more sensor real estate, that market might be better served by a purpose built variant ala Epic monochrome.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
FWIW, if a ground up redesign is too ambitious, I agree with folks like Toia that a module similar to the Pro I/O with some of the Meizler features - but not the size and cost - could really make the platform suit a lot more use cases. How about $10K for a combination Dragon sensor upgrade and redesigned Pro I/O rear module along the lines of Toia's concept that included proper connecters, power distro tap, proxy media, wireless video transmitter and could attach directly to the brain? Mix in a 4K live output and Bob's your uncle.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

I think part of the problem is R&D, the time it takes and FCC approval, etc. RED is a small company and they can not spread their resources too thin.

If you want a truly kickass system I think that Action Products have delivered with an amazing system that is not cost prohibitive for what it does. I tend to lean toward a post solution, like an sub 1K rocket, even as a loss leader, think Japan dumping LCD screens on the market) as a means of controlling it. I am thinking a thunderbolt appliance that plugs into everything from a Macbook to a tower and every imac in between rather than something else that attaches to the camera with it's own media (redmag mini). Even a simple CF card, low data rate dailies module would be fine, even though I think it flies in the the face of RED's (no baked in image philosophy). I agree with that. Should people be judging the images from a RED camera based on the recording on a Samurai or a PIX 240? I know it serves productions needs and all of that, but you need the data wrangler anyway.

They have already had to do so much educating when it comes to RAW workflow. The philosophy has always been, capture a large file and Deliver the lower resolutions from that.

It's not an ENG freelance camera. I really do not think it was built for that. RED's marketing is clear DSMC, RAW workflow. I hope they don't stray to far from that, but I do understand that market forces could dictate things.

David
 
I have only seen a couple of wishes for the projector to be at NAB. That of course is my wish.

I would attend simply to see that in action. So far, I have not been able to get anyone who might know to even hint that a projector guy would be well advised to attend.

I could interpret that as:
1. No new reveal yet
or
2. Super hush hush restraint.

I would prefer #2, even if I miss the reveal. But I suspect #1.
 
David Battistella said:
I think part of the problem is R&D, the time it takes and FCC approval, etc. RED is a small company and they can not spread their resources too thin.

If you want a truly kickass system I think that Action Products have delivered with an amazing system that is not cost prohibitive for what it does. I tend to lean toward a post solution, like an sub 1K rocket, even as a loss leader, (snip)
It's not an ENG freelance camera. I really do not think it was built for that. RED's marketing is clear DSMC, RAW workflow. I hope they don't stray to far from that, but I do understand that market forces could dictate things.
David
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Yes David, RED is a small company compared to a mega corporation like Sony, but that cuts both ways - less resources, but also less inertia.

I like the AP system: clever design with good SDI access, robust power distro and pro build quality. That said, the more pieces that come directly from RED and are common to 95% of rental packages the better for industry acceptance.

I have used my RedOne and my Epic in ENG/EFP situations several times over the years with mixed results. I concur that its not "built for ENG", that said, I've always felt like including a few ENG/EFP targeted operational features would increase versatility without compromising it's function as a cinema or documentary acquisition system. Admittedly I am biased in that I would rather make payments on and maintain just one camera rather than 2 or 3. Moreover, the more cameras RED sells, the better the health of the ecosystem.

Cheers - #19
 
Okay this is a speculation thread, so I am going to elaborate on how Vincent's magical mystery item works. 3 axis gyros, 3 axis accelerometers in multiple places around the rig. As you move the rig in a direction the gyros power down/power up relative to the vector at any given moment. This would give the rig an inert kind of resistance rather than a constant resistance. This would mean there's no need for any controller because the whole thing is rigged for biofeedback and becomes a kind of 3d mouse, or joystick. There'd be a myriad of ways to program it for various effects, make it less resistant in a given axis you want to move down as you go with it.

Surely someone is already on to this kind of thing. If they can do this with quadrocopters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp89tTDxXuI then they can rig this kind of thing for gyros? Perhaps gyros can't react as quickly as rotors.
 
I feel you on the projector front Rob. Keeping quiet could signify roadblocks, or, just a desire to make a bigger splash at introduction. FWIW, I will be pleasantly surprised if there's shipping RED projectors at NAB - if I was handicapping I would bet on end of 2013, but that's pure speculation.

On the subject of 4K laser projectors, I had a chance to attend a screening of GI Joe:Retaliation in the ETX room at AMC Burbank on Christies' 4K 3D laser projector that was touted as being able to do 14 foot lamberts (nominal 2K 2D levels) in 3D. I didn't have any measurement gear, but it was by far the brightest 3D presentation I have seen to date, spread over a screen that was probably 60' wide. They used the polarized Real D glasses which some say cut brightness by 75%!

While the better brightness was welcome and the colors punchy (it was a genre film with tons of CG so color accuracy might not have even been a goal) it still suffered from many of the issues I dislike about current S3D tech. I still find the elements on screen a little "ghosty" rather than solid. IMO, 24fps (even with double flashing per eye) still compromises the ability of the eye/brain decoding operation to get past the sense of "artificialness" (is that a word) that I find so distracting in typical S3D presentations. The other thing I kept noticing is that in bright content on the screen, especially large white areas, I was seeing a sea of green and red dots. I don't know if that was a laser sparkle issue, if the RealD glasses were being taken beyond their design envelope by the brightness/resolution of the Christie, or if that's just an inherent artifact of the process.

I wish S3D would just go away until the display tech evolves another generation or two, but as long as it is seen as a path to greater profits...

Cheers - #19
 
Brett Harrison said:
Okay this is a speculation thread, so I am going to elaborate on how Vincent's magical mystery item works. 3 axis gyros, 3 axis accelerometers in multiple places around the rig. As you move the rig in a direction the gyros power down/power up relative to the vector at any given moment. This would give the rig an inert kind of resistance rather than a constant resistance. This would mean there's no need for any controller because the whole thing is rigged for biofeedback and becomes a kind of 3d mouse, or joystick. There'd be a myriad of ways to program it for various effects, make it less resistant in a given axis you want to move down as you go with it.

Surely someone is already on to this kind of thing. If they can do this with quadrocopters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp89tTDxXuI then they can rig this kind of thing for gyros? Perhaps gyros can't react as quickly as rotors.
Click to expand...

Yes please.
 
David Battistella said:
6k is actually going to be easie to work with and have lower data rates as you can compress more in 6k and the dragon sensor will have a larger pixel size. This means 6k is not only going to be better but easier to work with than 5k or 4k now.

So 5k and 4k will be smaller data sizes and higher compression rates, for more recording time (it's hard to get your head around but it's true)

david
Click to expand...

Not really true, as the dragon has a higher density in the photo site and most likely demands the red colored ssd's to go at full frame at higher speed / lower compression...
r
 
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