Red Camera Losers

[Steve Gibby]

Spot on Jim...

A well treated, well fed, well watered, and well paid crew will probably do their best work for you...pretty simple logic really...but its surprising how many producers just don't quite get that.

Good on ya Mate! :cheers2:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I could say that by using them 10 times a year they should do it for $500, due to the high profile and regular work, but I'd rather sleep well at night than extort money out of honest, hard working people.

Share the love. With the right jobs, there is enough for everyone.

So true. What stupid, greedy producers don't realize is that it's your kind of attitude that even saves money in the long run.

When I know someone is looking out for me they get a better value because I feel like I need to do everything in my power to return the favor. If you're hanging your crew out to dry--don't expect them to stick their necks out for you when you need it. If you are on their side and look out for them they won't be sticking you with every technicality and extra surcharge in the books.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

totally agree

totally agree

When faced with a ridiculously low fee offer, I just smile, tell them "Quality work will always cost you what a professional is worth - so I'm not the person for your project", and then I simply walk away.

Beyond my work as a director, DP, and cinematographer, I also produce. My philosophy when crewing a production has always been to surround myself with the very best professionals I can afford, then treat them very well, and pay them what they are worth. As a result they invariably do their best work - and in the process we create an ongoing business relationship.

If every producer in this industry would have worked that way all along, this would be a radically different industry - and there would probably have never been any movements to form unions.

I totally agree.

 

[Manish Hamza]

the guys who are doing this are just hurting everyone else.. producers will get in the mindset that this is the NORM. just like how productions moved from 10 hours normal to 12 hours normal (yet still writing it up as a 10 hour day).

Its bogus. I laugh at these offers. No I will not rent my package out that cheap.. and I certainly wont work that cheap. No matter how bad the economy is.. I wont whore myself out like these guys

Hey Zakaree, i know how it feels, i am from india and renting out my camera in mumbai. I have faced the same scenario here too. I fail to understand one thing is that, the demand for R1 is pretty good and supply is just near abt there, still u can hire the R1 @ some stupid rates like that off an HD cam or lower then that. :cuss:



It's sad but true, i think it's a global phenomenon or how the business works - For some Undercutting makes proper business sense.:toetap05:

 

[Stephen Williams]

You've been throwing around warnings about hilariously low rates for well over a year.

Even the HVX can typically still pull $200+ without an operator.

Hi Chris,

I seem to remember people claiming the body would rent for 1000 - 1500 a day, clearly does not happen very often.

People will happily pay $200 for an HVX the work flow is cheap & easy. Just because someone bought a more expensive camera does not mean the budgets of their clients increased too. Horses for courses.

Stephen

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Amen Brother!

I pay my owner-operators $1500 for a 3/4 day live event, and feel guilty if once in a while I have to ask them for a discount to maybe $1000 or $1250.

I could say that by using them 10 times a year they should do it for $500, due to the high profile and regular work, but I'd rather sleep well at night than extort money out of honest, hard working people.

Share the love. With the right jobs, there is enough for everyone.

Well, I am also a believer that what goes around, comes around.

I must say that working for Jim was one of the most rewarding experiences in every respect. He is a great producer, great director, great DP and great friend of everyone involved. He can get the best skills out of everyone in the team. He has this magic magnet that attracts the best DPs in town all trying to go the extra mile for the common goal. Very healthy stuff.

And the result, well, georgeous images. Everyone gave 110% and it certainly shows in the final picture.

Fairness and generosity go a long way and Jim must have the biggest collection of brownie points in town.:smile:

It was great fun and I look forward to the next gig for Jim at any budget. :beer:

 

[Mark Allen]

Some thoughts on money:

If someone wants to rent their package and themselves even for $100 a day, that's their prerogative and you SHOULD just advise them to take that person on if price is their main concern, but warn them that there are a lot of issues at play. This happens in every aspect of the industry. In my design company whenever anyone says "maybe you can get a couple students to work on it and supervise them" I simply remind them that I'm not running a school, I'm running a design company which has artists with over a decade experience each of actual production work which all adds value to their end product - but if they want to try using some students, they probably have a 5% chance of it working out amazingly well and getting the price they want. They could gamble. (Note that very rarely I will find some student with a unique view and help to develop them, but it's not a "oh cheap labor thing")

I also play the role of producer now and then and when I have to I do ask for low rates from people and I expect them only to take them if they see some value in doing the project and they should not take it if they don't want to. I do stick by the people who work on my low budget work. I've placed people into very sweet positions and gotten people lots of work and careers even. But I never want someone doing anything they feel is a waste of their time. Anyway - but I've always found that if someone wants to do the work, the price is not the main factor. If someone doesn't want to work, no amount of money will make them better or happier.

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

If you can get good rates, go for it. However, if you don't have any work lined up for the time offered, why would you prefer to make nothing over something? You can argue all you want about how unfair it is but all your going to do is give more work to someone else more ambitious than you. You say $179/weekend wont pay for your camera body? I really don't think $0 is going to either. And many of you didn't buy the RED as an "investment;" you bought it as a toy which you wanted regardless of if you got work or not. I would say any money a person could make off their fun new toy is a bonus.

 

[Rick Darge]

The Red isn't a toy. It's a tool that I make my living with. I don't spend $75k on toys just for kicks. This gear is worth money and if a production wants to use the best, they have to spend good money. Otherwise, go down the street to the next Red kid and get their half put together package or whatever they're calling a 'full package' for $179 or less. You whore yourself out just ONE TIME to someone, and they will always think of you as a whore. I think the reality is a lot of people bought into the Red camera paradigm in order to open doors and maybe get rich off rentals. The real world doesn't work that way and that's why we're seeing ridiculous rates crop up every now and then. People are getting desperate. It has nothing to do with making something over nothing.

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

The Red isn't a toy. It's a tool that I make my living with. I don't spend $75k on toys just for kicks. This gear is worth money and if a production wants to use the best, they have to spend good money. Otherwise, go down the street to the next Red kid and get their half put together package or whatever they're calling a 'full package' for $179 or less. You whore yourself out just ONE TIME to someone, and they will always think of you as a whore. I think the reality is a lot of people bought into the Red camera paradigm in order to open doors and maybe get rich off rentals. The real world doesn't work that way and that's why we're seeing ridiculous rates crop up every now and then. People are getting desperate. It has nothing to do with making something over nothing.

I'm a little confused here. All I've been hearing about for over two years now is how the RED is going to make old school rigs and people that use them obsolete. Now you're telling me that it's about the skill after all? If it's not about the skill then why not hire some kid with a RED who's offering a fantastic rate?

Another way to look at this is: If you have a production that previously would've only been able to shoot on say a DVX100 or XL2 and now they can take the same amount of $$$ and get it shot on a RED, why shouldn't they do it? Some productions never had the option of hiring Pro's anyhow so it's a great deal for them. I don't think people should be called "slimeballs" just because they are getting the most for their money. You can say no if their offer is too low.

 

[Rick Darge]

Depends on the production really. There's a reason why a DVX100 rents for what it does and a Red for what it does. You wouldn't rent a DVX100 out for $10 a day if someone asked, so why is a Red camera any different. Yea, Red is cheap, but not really. If you want a real working package with lenses and the whole bit, that cost a lot more than just a camera body. If I am DPing and production wants my gear, then I quote them for a full package not because I want the higher rental, but because that is what is needed to efficiently make a production run smoothly. Time is money and a lot of guys forget that.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

im with darge on this...

but lets be honest.. the whores, are usually not good at what they do.. hence they whore themselves....

i wont stoop to that dirtbag level because
A. im way better than that
B. I am not going to slum myself into some pothole rate I wont be able to get out of

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

im with darge on this...
i wont stoop to that dirtbag level because
A. im way better than that
B. I am not going to slum myself into some pothole rate I wont be able to get out of

Not to be rude Zakaree, but that right there is the mindset of someone who is going to be spending a lot of weekends at home. You also forget that when you aren't working, you also aren't building your resume OR getting more experience. Every DP around admits that they can always get better and keep growing with every project they get. Having a "my way (or rate) or the highway" attitude is what is truly a loser mentality. And to whoever said "never take less than your stated rate" LMAO. That is ridiculous. Even post houses negotiate on rates...everything is negotiable in this business.

As far as the complete package, I can understand you not wanting to take a low rate if you have a nice kit with good glass, batteries, etc. But you mentioned that the producer would suffer by hiring a kid with a lesser kit than yours. This is only true, like I said, if you're dealing with a higher budget project. A production with a DVX budget can only benefit from a RED over DVX, even if you put a Nikon 35mm still camera lense on the body. You know this to be true.

 

[jimhare]

Aw shucks... :blush5:

The fact is, I'm truly humbled by the amazing talent, experience and toys possessed by the Red community here in Sydney.

And after spending (sometimes) decades perfecting your craft, as well as making a house-sized investment, you deserve to be rewarded, AS WELL as have an enjoyable experience.

Besides, you bring 3 frickin Master Primes to my shoots! arty:

I take my (Red) hat off to you. :thumbsup:

Well, I am also a believer that what goes around, comes around.

I must say that working for Jim was one of the most rewarding experiences in every respect. He is a great producer, great director, great DP and great friend of everyone involved. He can get the best skills out of everyone in the team. He has this magic magnet that attracts the best DPs in town all trying to go the extra mile for the common goal. Very healthy stuff.

And the result, well, georgeous images. Everyone gave 110% and it certainly shows in the final picture.

Fairness and generosity go a long way and Jim must have the biggest collection of brownie points in town.:smile:

It was great fun and I look forward to the next gig for Jim at any budget. :beer:

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Aw shucks... :blush5:
...you deserve to be rewarded, AS WELL as have an enjoyable experience.

Wow, this is turning comical fast. I've never heard of such nonsense as people saying what they "deserve." It isn't a question of what you deserve, it's a question of what people are offering you. If I can only get $200 for the weekend and my daughter is hungry, im going to swallow my pride and do the shoot. If you can afford not to do the shoot, more pwer to you but don't expect anyone to really care about your argument of so-called "inferior quality." How can you judge every DP anyway? I'm sure it's possible that a DP could produce work as good as yours for lower than what you'd charge. Even if not, I'm sure the production will manage without you.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

If you can't feed your daughter, you probably shouldn't have bought a RED in the first place...

Later,
Jason

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

dude.. ive worked plenttttyyyyyyy of free gigs as a dp/operator..
But I dont constantly whore myself nor my gear for low rates.
if its someone I know, and they are asking for a favor.. sure ill do it for 200 bucks or free..
but some jackass off craigslist promising a job on their next film??? they can go throw rocks.

like i said.. if a producer lowers his/her standards by trying to get dirt cheap gear/crew, and you lower your standards and accept.. then you are now the low standard and youll have a tough time gaining respect..

look ill hire you as a dp and you bring your gear and ill pay you 300 bucks/day..
but guess what.. next time im paying you 300 bucks... then the next time im paying you 300 bucks.. then the next time.. so on

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

If you can't feed your daughter, you probably shouldn't have bought a RED in the first place...

Later,
Jason

I can feed my daughter and I don't own a RED. I was merely making a point about the necessity of steady work. I don't know how you, or anyone for that matter, could prefer to sit at home for a weekend and make nothing rather than take your camera and go make some money shooting, which is presumably something you love doing. If I was offered $200 for a weekend of painting someones house, I wouldn't take it...why? Because I'm not in love with doing that sort of work. This is what I don't get...guys get into this business for the love of the craft but before long, it becomes about the money and what rate they think they deserve. Not saying people should take advantage but comeon, you're still doing a job others would love to do, even if they got paid less than you.

 

[jimhare]

All true, and I work for free more than most I'm guessing, about 50% of what I shoot.

But it's all about doing the things you love for cheap or free, not bowing to slimy producers trying to make us believe we are only worth $300 including our gear.

 

[Brad Webb]

All true, and I work for free more than most I'm guessing, about 50% of what I shoot.

But it's all about doing the things you love for cheap or free, not bowing to slimy producers trying to make us believe we are only worth $300 including our gear.

Exactly. I love shooting, but I don't love being used and abused and working my ass off for peanuts while some douchebag pockets all the money. Sometimes it is a great project that has little or no money in it. Other times it's like wait, why is this music video for this major recording artist only paying $100 a day fro a DP? Hmmmmmmmm.